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Westley375
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Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun
#312784 - 21/02/18 11:30 AM

Hey Guys - Check this out ! Guns International GI 100992115 Spectacular gun at a super price !

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3DogMike
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312799 - 21/02/18 04:35 PM

1889 would be too early for the full Nitro 75/480 load. Bet the proof marks (if still visible) are originally Black Powder and maybe a NfB or “Light Cordite” reproof done at a later date. As Roscoe says, need to see the barrel flats.

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CptCurl
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 3DogMike]
#312813 - 22/02/18 12:13 AM

I certainly don't think it was built as a nitro gun. It may have received later nitro proof, but that doesn't change its character from BPE to nitro.

It would be interesting to see a close-up of the barrel flats and to see the inside of its bores. I bet the rifling has a slow BP twist rate.

I wish Turnbull would keep his hands off nice antiques.

Curl

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bouldersmith
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: CptCurl]
#312831 - 22/02/18 06:20 AM

Mike,
how did you come up with 1889? I did not see a date or serial number.

H&H will tell you what the book says if you call. I tend to agree but it weighs over 10 lbs so it is possible it was an original Nitro gun. Holland retailed quite a few rifles in the early cordite era that they claim could shoot anything from a 365 gr to a 480 gr bullet in the same spot. One of out members has one of these rifle that weighs just over 8lbs yet it carries original full boat cordite proof marks. It has seen very little use yet has a shattered stock. Hard to say how it happened but it does make you wonder.

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3DogMike
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: bouldersmith]
#312837 - 22/02/18 08:32 AM

Quote:

Mike, how did you come up with 1889? I did not see a date or serial number. .......
.....

Hi Steve,
Just took the advert text on GI at face value “1889”
- Mike

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CptCurl
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: bouldersmith]
#312839 - 22/02/18 09:25 AM

Quote:

. . . I tend to agree but it weighs over 10 lbs so it is possible it was an original Nitro gun.

The 1889 date is too early for an original H&H nitro rifle. That pre-dates the .450 NE.

It may have nitro proofs, but they were applied later if it's a 1889 rifle as represented.

I'd like to see the barrel flats.

Curl

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bouldersmith
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: CptCurl]
#312841 - 22/02/18 10:10 AM

I read right past that......

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Westley375
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: bouldersmith]
#312844 - 22/02/18 10:56 AM

H&H says it is original NP... no BP marks on Flats . Barrels smooth as day they were made.....no bulges/waves. I have taken both Elephant and Buffalo with 89 gr of R15 and they didn't complain one bit !!

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Westley375
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312845 - 22/02/18 11:06 AM

The gun was built in 1898 not 1889. Barrels flats have Crown over NP and crown over V and 450EX . And Curl you shouldn't' be critical of Turnbull....not everyone can afford the high condition guns you own ....some do need work.

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bouldersmith
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312846 - 22/02/18 11:14 AM

Cordite loads came along in this cartridge sometime after that date. 1889 was actually the year of development for Cordite and as far as I know Rigby with the .450 NE, approximately 5 years later was the very first sporting cartridge using it as a propellant. Can we see the flats? Do they they carry NP marks? If so then it was proofed for cordite after the fact as the NP proof came into effect in 1904. I have seen original Rigby Nitro guns built before the NP mark and they were very prominently marked(in Gothic scroll like only Rigby does)on the barrels by the maker that the gun was a special big game rifle for use with cordite. Do you have a letter from H&H? It is looking more and more like a 500/450 Express, not a Nitro express. I have been wrong plenty before but as I see it either this gun was built as a BP gun or your date of manufacture is incorrect.

Still a pretty gun though and who does not love a good H&H?

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Edited by bouldersmith (22/02/18 11:17 AM)

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3DogMike
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312848 - 22/02/18 12:16 PM

Quote:

The gun was built in 1898 not 1889. Barrels flats have Crown over NP and crown over V and 450EX . And Curl you shouldn't' be critical of Turnbull....not everyone can afford the high condition guns you own ....some do need work.

Interesting proof marks.
- Crown/NP is Birmingham Nitro Proof 1904 and after (London Nitro Proof was a sword/NP)
- Crown/V is London view proof
- 450EX was usual for BP Express loads and pre 1904 would have “usually” had the load for Cordite spelled out as well.

“Smokeless, semi-smokeless, Cordite” was used prior to 1898 (1887 & 1896 proof rules) in some rifles. Proof marks then had to spell out the powder and bullet weight after the “.xxx EX” mark. If this rifle only shows “.450EX” then that is an interesting anolmaly and quite possibly originally BP proof then later re-proved under the Birmingham rules of 1904. May have a reproof mark as well.

My W & C Scott top lever hammer rifle was made in 1898 as an original .500/.450 3 1/4” Nitro express and has London Proof marks as well as the requisite “transition” proof marks to include “Cordite 70 GR Ball 480 GR MAX” as the Tropical load at the time.

Photo hosting is a mess any more, suffice to say the Wal Winfer Single Shot Rifle book series has lots of interesting info as to early pre-1904 Cordite proof.

Another side note to this .500/.450 that has pristeen barrels.....probably much like my W&C Scott.....mean that the rifle could have been caught up in the .450 ammo ban/prohibition in India & Sudan that was first imposed about November 1899 and fully implemented by 1907, thus the rifle was likely hardly ever fired.......no ammo.
- Mike

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470evans
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 3DogMike]
#312888 - 23/02/18 04:02 AM

Kind of a mystery. Serial #14890 puts it in the yrs 1892-1893 according to Dallas. I'd like to see the Holland build sheet.

Nice rifle!, good luck with your sale.

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Westley375
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 470evans]
#312905 - 23/02/18 02:38 PM

Lots of info , a few critics BUT NO BUYERS

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3DogMike
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312910 - 23/02/18 04:10 PM

No critics here my friend, just double rifle enthusiasts trying to clarify some rather opaque issues

Nice rifle to be sure; however, to paraphrase a quote by Winston Churchill: “... a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma...”
#1 some confusion on actual date of manufacture (see #3)
#2 some confusion as to actual ORIGINAL proof
#3 GI advert still says 1889, you say 1898, serial # says another
#4 double rifle current market is soft these days, very small pool of buyers, especially if possibly originally a BPE with re-proof (see #2)

Rather than get all offended there is an easy solution to the “critics” (myself included?) comments: post a picture of the barrel flats and the proof marks, as well as any other relevant marks, plus clear picture of the original serial number. Holland also usually engraved the charge and case length on the action bar of BP Express rifles, good hint there.
- Mike

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3DogMike
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 3DogMike]
#312913 - 23/02/18 04:31 PM

Just looked at the GI advert photos again, and expanded the frame for a closeup of the left side action bar......

Very clearly engraved: “CHARGE 4 1/2 DRAMS, 500/450, 3 1/4” CASE”.....that is a BP load.

The rifle in question is unarguably ORIGINALLY a .500/.450 3 1/4” Black Powder Express, while made to a heavier weight appropriate to the “Magnum” BPE.

THIS IS IMPORTANT:
Yes......BPE rifles were reproved for Nitro, no doubt about that, and fairly common. Quite likely for NfB or Light Cordite though. Be aware that full Nitro loads are fully 50% higher pressure than the original BP loads or the equivalent NfB/Light Cordite.
The issue? Full Nitro equivalent to the 75 Cordite 480 grain load could beat the rifle loose in short order.

Any Nitro Proof marks should show reproof “crown/R” along with the seller stated “crown/NP” from Birmingham on or after 1904.
Very curious now as to the load for which the rifle was reproved? NfB? Light Cordite? Full 70-75/480 Nitro?
Once again, the barrel flats WILL tell the tale if properly reproved in England.

Best of luck on your sale.....as stated, a nice looking rifle.
- Mike

--------------------
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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470evans
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 3DogMike]
#312924 - 23/02/18 10:06 PM

"H&H says it is original NP..."

Plainly an original BPE,I'm curious what did Holland provide showing this was an original NP rifle?

Still like to see a picture of the flats.

Edited by CptCurl: Cropped and reduced size of photo for better display.

Edited by CptCurl (24/02/18 11:31 PM)

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CptCurl
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312927 - 23/02/18 10:58 PM

Quote:

. . . And Curl you shouldn't' be critical of Turnbull....not everyone can afford the high condition guns you own ....some do need work.

It wasn't my intention to besmirch your rifle. In fact, I had no reason to know it was yours at the time. I apologize for any offensive tone to my remark.

I have a thing about Turnbull's colors; especially the overbearing yellow his formula yields. I would prefer a gun with no colors remaining than one re-done by his methods. That's my opinion. Others may have different preferences.

Navy Arms commissioned a run of Pedersoli replicas of the Colt Lightning rifle. http://www.navyarms.com/Lightning.php One of its attributes was that Turnbull did the finish work, including color case hardening. I bought one brand new and still have it. Its receiver is dominated by that same piss yellow. My comment was sparked by my own experience.

One more point. Even if this rifle is re-prooved for the full nitro load that doesn't make it a full nitro rifle. It was built to black powder standards and that will always be the case. A prime example is my Woodward .450-400 3-1/4".
Curl's Woodward .400

That rifle was re-prooved for the full nitro load.

So be it. They hurt nothing. But neither did they change anything. To me it still is a BPE, and that's the way I shoot it. No full nitro loads. Period.

One more comment about re-proofing. Yes, it should be stamped with a "Crown over R" to designate re-proof. They didn't always do that. You don't see that stamp on my Woodward.

Good luck with your sale.

Curl

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bouldersmith
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: CptCurl]
#312938 - 24/02/18 01:00 AM

Well that solves some of the mystery. Would be interesting to see when it was built and the load/time period it was re-proofed. Cool gun but I'm in total agreement the Curl and Mike, obviously a BP gun originally.

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bwanakim
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: bouldersmith]
#312956 - 24/02/18 04:55 AM

Not a comment on this rifle, but to 3 Dog Mike's point number 4 in his post above, I have also been told by dealers and auction houses that the market for D/Rs is quite soft and that the X generation and millennials have very little to no interest in them, or don't have the money to purchase them. To an older person who is thinking of paring down his collection, does anyone have an idea about what might harden up the market? The same can be said for British shotguns, of which I have my fair share--830 listings on GI!

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bwanakim

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Westley375
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: bwanakim]
#312980 - 24/02/18 10:34 AM

Thanks to all who commented and gave info on my DR ....I learned more about this gun in one week here than I have since my Grandfather gave it to me 38 years ago.You guys certain are fountains of knowledge !! I have been a bit perplexed on why the barrels do not have BP Marks . Also "Curl" mention the slow twist rate in barrels (for BP)which is definately NOT the case (they have nearly as much twist as a modern rifle !) So could this gun which started out as a BP been given a new set of barrels by H&H and just not recorded as such ?. I've seen several BP guns and these barrels just don't look and feel like BP barrels ......they are very thick and very heavy . There are NO BP marks or Reproof marks on the flats just what I mentioned above. I've have shot this gun for years with full nitro loads (sounds like maybe I shouldn't) but I still have all my fingers. Maybe the Elephant and Buffalo should have told me not to use the gun that way HA HA.

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3DogMike
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312986 - 24/02/18 11:33 AM

Quote:

Thanks to all who commented and gave info on my DR ....I learned more about this gun in one week here than I have since my Grandfather gave it to me 38 years ago.You guys certain are fountains of knowledge !! I have been a bit perplexed on why the barrels do not have BP Marks . Also "Curl" mention the slow twist rate in barrels (for BP)which is definately NOT the case (they have nearly as much twist as a modern rifle !) So could this gun which started out as a BP been given a new set of barrels by H&H and just not recorded as such ?. I've seen several BP guns and these barrels just don't look and feel like BP barrels ......they are very thick and very heavy . There are NO BP marks or Reproof marks on the flats just what I mentioned above. I've have shot this gun for years with full nitro loads (sounds like maybe I shouldn't) but I still have all my fingers. Maybe the Elephant and Buffalo should have told me not to use the gun that way HA HA.

Chris,
Really, you could snap a picture of the barrel flats, plus barrels in front of the flats and behind the forend hanger, and have it posted here. This would clear up ANY doubt about what you have, and the wisdom (or possible risk) of continued firing full Nitro loads.
I think any potential buyer would expect such a photo anyway.....

Back before the 1904 Proof Laws there was no “Black Powder” proof mark, simply “View Proof” and “Definitive Proof” (London View Proof in your case maybe a London Definitive as well, you have not said as such) and for Express Rifles there was the mark as you earlier noted as “.450 EX”.
“If” the rifle was proved for Nitro at any time prior to 1904 that would only be noted by the grains weight of charge and “Cordite” as well as the caliber designation and case length.
The later 1904 Birmingham Nitro Proof mark you mentioned “should” be accompanied by the max grains weight of Cordite as well as projectile weight.
As to barrel weigh and profile.....that would have only little to do with BP versus Nitro simply because for a given desired length and weight of rifle the barrels would be of a certail profile no matter what. British sporting rifles of the 1890 era were sometimes done to what we would expect to be a Nitro Express weight even tho only intended for BP proof.

Given your interest in selling this rifle I would seriously suggest that you contact H&H to get any details they have on this rifle. They certainly would know if they had built a second set of barrels for it as well as the original proof history.
Any copies of records or provenance from H&H would certainly add to the saleability of the rifle.
-Mike

--------------------
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“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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Westley375
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: 3DogMike]
#312993 - 24/02/18 01:08 PM

OK Fellas there are barrel flats photos on GI ....hope this will suffice.....I did the best I could. Regards CHRIS

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paradox_
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#312998 - 24/02/18 02:12 PM

I agree with Curl re Turnbulls finishing. Its like putting a new shiny duco acrylic finish on a Rolls Royce!!. About as suble as a sledge hammer, IMHO.
Definatley built as a BP rifle....no doubt

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Huvius
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#313004 - 24/02/18 02:55 PM

Quote:

OK Fellas there are barrel flats photos on GI ....hope this will suffice.....I did the best I could. Regards CHRIS

The NP stamp looks to be added later.
The stamp above the NP is the London Proof House rifle barrel provisional proof mark.
Other than the NP stamp, these are exactly the proofs on my Alex Henry 450 which is also a black powder rifle.
Everything about this rifle speaks to it being a black powder rifle.
Bet it’s a super fun gun though all the same.

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3DogMike
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Re: Holland & Holland 500-450 Hammergun [Re: Westley375]
#313005 - 24/02/18 03:04 PM

Quote:

OK Fellas there are barrel flats photos on GI ....hope this will suffice.....I did the best I could. Regards CHRIS

The proof marks Left to Right, NOT specific to Cordite, semi-smokeless, or other “Nitro” powders:
- London Provisional
- London View
- London Definative

Express Rifle Proof mark
“.450 EX” (Express Rifle, once again only Black Powder Proof unless stamped otherwise)

“GI37P” may be a Holland & Holland or barrel maker number?

“N P” is not a recognised Nitro Proof mark in any of my sources for any Brit or European proof. Tellingly the letters are separately struck and don’t conform to British proof law standard which would be “Arm with Sword/NP” if London Proof and “Crown/NP” if Birmingham Proof......all on one stamp.

No “re-proof” marking as would be expected with re-proof to Nitro by a recognised proof house.

The other anomaly with claimed Nitro Proof is that there is no maximum powder/case/bullet weight stamped on the barrel flats as required for British Express Rifle nitro proof.

From visible evidence this rifle surely does NOT look to be “Nitro Proof” as governed by competent proof authority.

This is your deal; however I would suggest avoiding trouble with hearsay claims of proof & contacting Holland & Holland to get WRITTEN confirmation of details of this rifle. Look for actual build/sale date and any information as to known re-proof status.
I would think that at least here in the States, with liability concerns, that having successfully shot it as it came from a relative is different than claiming Nitro Proof for a sale then the eventual buyer having a serious problem.

Just my 2¢, would love to see what Curl, Cal Pappas, Steve Bertram, or other knowledgeable DR enthusiasts might have to say.
- Mike

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