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casper50
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Loc: Alaska
Remington filing for bankruptcy
      #312296 - 13/02/18 07:50 AM

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...s-in-bankruptcy

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Homer
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: casper50]
      #312297 - 13/02/18 08:28 AM

G'Day Fella's,

D'oh! and BUGGER!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Ripp
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Homer]
      #312303 - 13/02/18 01:35 PM

I actually read about that a couple weeks ago in the WSJ..

Sad but they kinda dug their own grave IMHO..their quality has taken a dramatic turn for the worse in the past decade or more..I used to buy only Remington for a good quality lower priced rifle..had a great reputation for accuracy back in the day. Sadly, IMHO, that day has come and gone.

Also pretty sure the lawsuits didn't help the bottom line..replacing thousands of triggers.. all started by a bogus lawsuit, again, IMHO, as I know the gunsmith who looked and worked on the alleged "faulty factory trigger"..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Ripp]
      #312310 - 13/02/18 02:52 PM

Interesting numbers on gun ownership in the USA.

" In 2014, 31 percent of American households reported owning a firearm, down from 47 percent in 1973, according to a report from National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

Gun ownership has become more concentrated as a result, with a small sliver of gun owners owning a growing segment of America’s firearms inventory, according to the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. These gun buyers have come to be known as “super owners” and one study, conducted by Harvard and Northeastern universities, concluded that about half the guns in America are owned by only 3 percent of the adult population, with an average of 17 firearms each. "


31 % household gun ownership, down from 47%.

"Super" owners being about 4% if adult population.

But note the intentional bias in the statistics, 31% of HOUSEHOLDS vs 3% of POPULATION.

That 3% is probably about 8% to 10% of HOUSEHOLDS.

The Bloomberg article reads like it doesn't know whether it is a business and investment article, or an anti gun article. Which isn't that surprising considering the source ...

Also any attempt to try to smear Trump ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Ripp
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: NitroX]
      #312312 - 13/02/18 03:07 PM

Quote:

Interesting numbers on gun ownership in the USA.

" In 2014, 31 percent of American households reported owning a firearm, down from 47 percent in 1973, according to a report from National Opinion Research Center at the University of Chicago.

Gun ownership has become more concentrated as a result, with a small sliver of gun owners owning a growing segment of America’s firearms inventory, according to the Harvard Injury Control Research Center. These gun buyers have come to be known as “super owners” and one study, conducted by Harvard and Northeastern universities, concluded that about half the guns in America are owned by only 3 percent of the adult population, with an average of 17 firearms each. "


31 % household gun ownership, down from 47%.

"Super" owners being about 4% if adult population.

But note the intentional bias in the statistics, 31% of HOUSEHOLDS vs 3% of POPULATION.

That 3% is probably about 8% to 10% of HOUSEHOLDS.

The Bloomberg article reads like it doesn't know whether it is a business and investment article, or an anti gun article. Which isn't that surprising considering the source ...

Also any attempt to try to smear Trump ...




I agree, can call that article another liberal POS smoke screen.. 3% my ass... record number of new women shooters in the US..along with record number of firearms sold and back ground checks during the Barry presidential years.. a number that increased every year ..

Agree with your thoughts and insight.. bias numbers to feed to the sheep for their consumption..

Be willing to bet all 200,000+ in november were not bought by 3%
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/27/record-amount-background-checks-for-guns-on-black-friday.html



GUN ownership rises to 44% of all homes in America..

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/surprise-gun-ownership-rises-to-44-of-all-homes/article/2600319

Gun-ownership-is-up-in-america-so-why-isnt-media-telling-about-it--weird

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2016/09/0...g-about-it.html


Americans-really-like-their-guns-they-own-42% of the 650-million-civilian-firearms-worldwide

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/worl...wide/726321001/




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SharpsNitro
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Ripp]
      #312313 - 13/02/18 03:13 PM

I’m surprised that this didn’t happen years ago. The fucktards at Cerberus have proven to have the reverse Midas Touch “gold to shit”. Not sure what path forward there will be for the companies they bought out and ruined. Hopefully some of the executive will spend time in prison.

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416rigby
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #312322 - 13/02/18 04:40 PM

"Average of 17 firearms each" wow, I'm in good company, I guess!

--------------------
"Life's too short to hunt with an ugly gun"

U.S. Coast Guard, retired


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Wayne59
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: 416rigby]
      #312331 - 13/02/18 11:23 PM

I must be in the super duper group. 17 guns wouldn't even fill up one of my safes.

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Ripp
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Wayne59]
      #312338 - 14/02/18 01:32 AM

Quote:

I must be in the super duper group. 17 guns wouldn't even fill up one of my safes.





Kinda what I thought...

sssshhhhhhhh...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Ripp]
      #312341 - 14/02/18 02:52 AM

On the news this morning..

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2018/02/13/gunmaker-remington-to-file-for-bankruptcy.html

More bs as far as I am concerned..blaming Sandy Hook as part of their problems..whatever...not buying it as the reason...poor management along with shoddy workmanship are more of the reason IMHO..The Barry Obama years were 8 of the best years one could ever want for a gun manufacturer..if you cant make it then and only survive a year later, you have issues...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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szihn
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Ripp]
      #312344 - 14/02/18 05:53 AM

Ripp is 100% correct. I have been amazed and appalled for 30 years at how Remington was conducting business. I am somewhat suspicious that there is an inside agenda. The Mega business that owns Remington is pro-communist and anti gun, and has been for some time.
A bankrupt business for a company of that size will be a good write off, and save them a lot of taxes both within the USA and also outside the USA.

I have said many times it's almost as if the leadership or owners are TRYING to destroy the company.
I think I was right.


Every time Remington did something that gets them into trouble, they defend it, or try to hide it.

Every time they come out with something that has super good potential, they kill it themselves.

They stopped selling bullets as components, except for a very few.

And many of the very best ones that they made in the 60s and 70s have been cheapened by thinning the jackets and making them less likely to hold together on impact. Easier to make, but not near as good for hunting.

It's sad, but I am not even slightly surprised.
In fact my only surprise is that it took this long.
A sad day for shooters, but this is not "the day Remington died". They committed suicide over the last few decades, and just bled out.


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93x64mm
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: szihn]
      #312347 - 14/02/18 07:22 AM

I hope some 'real' American buys the company & does a proper job with it instead of what has happened.
Every time I see one of these large companies go 'bust' it makes you wonder, then you find out they've relocated offshore (the auto industry is a classic example where all us tax payers spend umpteen millions to keep them afloat & in the end they did so anyway)
Rather sad to see this happen, it will be back to basics if someone has the guts to do so.


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Homer
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: 93x64mm]
      #312352 - 14/02/18 08:42 AM

G'Day Fella's,

When Bean Counters only run a manufacturing business, this can occur.
Remington's manufacturing quality, has deteriorated over the past 10 ish years.
And only FOOL's treat other people like fools, especially when there is so much Quality competition in this sector, to choose from.
I own 5+ Remington firearms, so I'm a long standing supporter of their products but of late, I started buying Kimber rifles (because of their Quality).

Double D'oh!!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Homer]
      #312359 - 14/02/18 10:08 AM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's,

When Bean Counters only run a manufacturing business, this can occur.
Remington's manufacturing quality, has deteriorated over the past 10 ish years.
And only FOOL's treat other people like fools, especially when there is so much Quality competition in this sector, to choose from.
I own 5+ Remington firearms, so I'm a long standing supporter of their products but of late, I started buying Kimber rifles (because of their Quality).

Double D'oh!!
Homer




Exactly.. you can purchase an entire laundry list of firearms that are much better in quality for a similar price point.. Kimber, Tikka, Sako (a little more but well worth it, Winchesters have really stepped up to the plate as of late, Bergara's shoot awesome, CZ...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Postman
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Ripp]
      #312364 - 14/02/18 10:59 AM

Good riddance. Except they won’t die. It will be a reincarnation and more sub par sloppy manufactured junk. It truly breaks my heart as I do believe they have had some really winning designs over the years.... Early model 700 BDL, 760 Game Master, 1100, 870 come to mind....... All tremendous designs albeit the build and manufacture of same has been sloppy at best and has deteriorated over time.

My first 700 circa 1984 had lovely cut checkering and a weld splatter on the jeweled bolt. The brass cross pins were roughly peened over and not nicely finished with the varnish finish blemished over the pins. The gun shot 3/4 MOA with federal premium ammo though. Fast forward to a recent 700 LTR..... the scope base holes were not drilled in a straight line and wandered in a kind of diagonal direction to the bore axis. Next up a newer 7600 Police pump.... the bolt face was incorrectly machined and wouldn’t hold the extractor clip in place and would NOT extract empties....... Contrast back to my old 1100 circa 1973 which was ok from a fit and finish perspective albeit obviously a product of a high volume assembly line yet ran like a well tuned watch.....

Now I buy Sako if I want a gun off the shelf. They shoot like a dream and they are all well put together.... Indeed, the el cheapo Remingtons save for a late 60s 760 game master no longer pollute my safe. Pity on the build quality because I truly believe the underlying designs are quite good. Geared toward high volume mass production granted but that is no reason to cheap out on the upper and lower manufacturing control limits.



Edited by Postman (14/02/18 10:11 PM)


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3DogMike
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Postman]
      #312369 - 14/02/18 12:55 PM

Back to John’s earlier post for one minute of observation and comment if I may:

" In 2014, 31 percent of American households reported owning a firearm, down from 47 percent in 1973,

My take on this would be that there is every likelyhood that given the increasing government intrusion on private gun ownership since 1973,16% of households simply will not admit (report) to a pollster or anyone else that they own/have firearms on premises.

This would be especially relevant in States like New York, Connecticut, and New Jersey where admitting (to anyone) that you posess a firearm could put you in legal jeopardy.
Same thing as answering your Doctors “health” questions on a routine visit.....they are “encouraged” by the government to ask whether you have access to firearms, and all medical records now will go into a Fed database as far as I am aware.

This is also not considering certain “communities” with a large % of their adult male population that are convicted felons....can’t tell me that those people are 100% gun free and does one think for even a second that they would admit posession?

- Mike

Back to topic; have not even considered a new Remington in years.....more is the pity because they were, at one time, fine hunting and target rifles.]

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

Edited by 3DogMike (14/02/18 12:57 PM)


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Rule303
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: szihn]
      #312412 - 15/02/18 08:41 AM

szihn, I agree. When the Mega company that bought out Rem they passed on to it huge debts from other companies with in the group (What Air New Zealand did with Ansett Airlines, an Aussie airline plus had all their fuel bills going to Ansett. Ansett go bust and Air Kiwi free and clear). They then bought out Marlin at a time most if not all Marlins machinery needed replacing. Then throw in poor quality control. I would think no sane rational company would do that and expect to make a profit anytime at all.

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Yochanan
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: 93x64mm]
      #312417 - 15/02/18 09:47 AM

Quote:

I hope some 'real' American buys the company & does a proper job with it instead of what has happened.




I hope some gun enthusiast with understanding of the business will manage the company. Only way for Remington is focus on quality stuff than cheap massproduced crap offered in current flavour of the month. Just imagine if Remington started to compete with some of the countless makers of Remington 700 clones.

If Remington continues in the MBA bean counter blues it will fail again.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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szihn
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Yochanan]
      #312422 - 15/02/18 11:30 AM

If they want to do things right there are several modification they could make to their 700 and 760 that would give therm immediate results and if I were in charge I would do some research on what would be involved to compete with the CZ and Winchester M70 by bringing back the 30A Bolt action which was one of the best ever made. Remington should bring the 30A back, not to totally replace the 700 but to add another choice for the riflemen that want a top-notch gun.

For the 700s put in a safe and fool-proof trigger like everyone else in the industry does. Install a screw through the bolt handle so they cannot come off the bolt body, and get rid of those frail little extractors. Go to an M-16 style at the very least. An M-1 Garand style would be even better but they may have to open the bottom of the bolt recess to make one work easily from the shoulder.

Use a square hanger on the 760 pump so the for-end can't twist and touch the barrel. If the forend was not allowed to touch the barrel, and if they put a good heavy duty extractor in the bolt, the 760 could be a real competitor to every lever action out there for hunting. If held carefully I have seen 760s that would shoot as well as 700s. The trigger should be cleaned up too. Design wise, it's never going to be a match trigger, but just a bit of care when the gun is made could make them a LOT better.

Those would be good starts.


I doubt they will even be discussed, but those are the kind of things that would put Remington back on the market as a serious competitor.

Just my dreams

Edited by szihn (16/02/18 05:33 AM)


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Ripp
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Postman]
      #312447 - 15/02/18 11:51 PM

Quote:

Good riddance. Except they won’t die. It will be a reincarnation and more sub par sloppy manufactured junk. It truly breaks my heart as I do believe they have had some really winning designs over the years.... Early model 700 BDL, 760 Game Master, 1100, 870 come to mind....... All tremendous designs albeit the build and manufacture of same has been sloppy at best and has deteriorated over time.
Fast forward to a recent 700 LTR..... the scope base holes were not drilled in a straight line and wandered in a kind of diagonal direction to the bore axis. Next up a newer 7600 Police pump.... the bolt face was incorrectly machined and wouldn’t hold the extractor clip in place and would NOT extract empties....... Contrast back to my old 1100 circa 1973 which was ok from a fit and finish perspective albeit obviously a product of a high volume assembly line yet ran like a well tuned watch.....




It isn't just them either..Hell I spent over $4500 last year for a custom made rifle ..scope base holes were not straight on that either..this was from a custom rifle manufacturer in Lansing Michigan..called them on it..sent it back per their instructions..they said they fixed it with that I assumed as a new action..they basically tried to ream out the holes and redrill..I sent it back and told them I wanted 100% refund ..which I did get when I called them on it and showed them I had photos of before and after sending the rifle to them twice..

Doing it again, but this time the builder is only an hour from my house..close enough I can have direct contact with him if I have issues..I much prefer that situation...

I trust no one until it is proven when it comes to $$ and guns..actually most other things as well..been fu*ked one too many times.. now I trust but verify..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Rule303
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: szihn]
      #312470 - 16/02/18 10:17 AM

szihn nothing wrong with the Rem extractor. It has the same bearing area as the much vaunted Sako extractor. The bite in when extracting and are less liable to jump the rim than the Sako type. Put an M16/Sako type in and you break the gas sealing so the action would need a complete redesign as far as I know. I have heard of them breaking, also heard of all other types failing. I have had Mauser/type extractors fail. The only Rem extractor I have had fail in part was on a 788. The retaining clip was broken through but it all stayed in place and extracted reliable. Just would not eject properly as there was not enough tension on the rim.

Agree with the Model 30A


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Postman
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Rule303]
      #312473 - 16/02/18 11:25 AM

Quote:

szihn nothing wrong with the Rem extractor. It has the same bearing area as the much vaunted Sako extractor. The bite in when extracting and are less liable to jump the rim than the Sako type. Put an M16/Sako type in and you break the gas sealing so the action would need a complete redesign as far as I know. I have heard of them breaking, also heard of all other types failing. I have had Mauser/type extractors fail. The only Rem extractor I have had fail in part was on a 788. The retaining clip was broken through but it all stayed in place and extracted reliable. Just would not eject properly as there was not enough tension on the rim.

Agree with the Model 30A




That little Rem spring steel C clip extractor does an amazing job. I’ve never had one fail. Ever. In the case of that 7600 Police I spoke of earlier, the problem was not with the extractor. Remington buggered the bolt head / bolt face machining so the bolt face woudn’t retain the C clip...... One can not extract if the extractor will not seat in the bolt face C clip groove. Its a really ingenious design. Simple and highly effective. BUT one needs to manufacture it properly in the first place.

I have heard of Rem extractor clips breaking but only after years of neglect and rust eats through the clip.... but that isn't the gun’s fault nor is it a design flaw. I personally have not experienced a broken C Clip and I caution that the “I have heard of” is only citing Internet heresy.

Edited by Postman (16/02/18 11:31 AM)


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szihn
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Postman]
      #312476 - 16/02/18 01:35 PM

Well I better set you straight.

I am a full time gunsmith and I used to work for a Remington Service Center. I have been a gunsmith for almost 1/2 a century now.

Yes, their extractors do fail.

Not in huge number numerically speaking, but yes they do, and in fact, they do more than every other extractor of every other modern rifle combined.

I know, I am the one replacing them.

Looking at my books for the last 10 years as I write this (from 4 shops I do work for in central Wyoming)I can find 17 references to replacing Remington extractors. Now 17 out of many thousands of 700s in use in Wyoming is not a high percentage I'll grant you, but when I look through the same books I find:

3 repairs on shotgun extractors, One on a Spanish double, one on an old M12 Winchester and one on a Remington 870.

2 on other bolt action center fire rifles, one Marlin XL7 and one on a Mossberg MVP.

One on a Winchester M92 38-40.

2 on bolt action 22s. One a Winchester M69 and one Brazilian FIE import.

Also one on a very old 1911 pistol.

So that's 17 for Remington rifles and 9 for every other gun combined in the last 10 years from these 4 shops.

Now keep in mind, this is through independent gun shops and ONLY in 2 counties in Wyoming. When I worked for Remington Service I replaced about 1-2 a week, for 2 years.

In my life I have had to replace one extractor on an M1-Garand.

And I will also grant that our guns should receive some care. But saying that the Remington M700 style extractor is "good" because they only break if neglected is a weak argument for it's design.

I have seen many of these that were not "well kept" either.

M1 Garands.
M14s.
Carcanos.
Mannlichers.
AKs.
FALs
G3s
Krags. (MANY)
Springfields. (MANY)
Enfields in SMLE, 1914, and 1917 types. (MANY MANY!)
Mausers. (MANY MANY MANY!)
Mosin Nagants. (MANY MANY MANY MANY!)

About 1/3 of these old guns I have worked on are 2X older then the design of the 700 extractor (M720 was the 1st from the mid 1950s) and have been being neglected for that long too, but still work.

I have worked on more WW1 and Pre-WW1 guns than I can easily count and restored or sporterized them, but only a very few ever had a broken or non-functional extractor.
I can remember two Mosin Nagants that broke, one bent 95 Mauser, and one US Krag that came to me with it's extractor missing, so it was lost or discarded before I got it.

We are talking about guns that are now over 100 years old.

I am not saying Remington extractors don't work.

I am saying they should make something better. EVERYONE else on earth that makes a bolt action, makes one better.
So should Remington.

Edited by szihn (16/02/18 01:42 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Postman]
      #312494 - 17/02/18 01:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

szihn nothing wrong with the Rem extractor. It has the same bearing area as the much vaunted Sako extractor. The bite in when extracting and are less liable to jump the rim than the Sako type. Put an M16/Sako type in and you break the gas sealing so the action would need a complete redesign as far as I know. I have heard of them breaking, also heard of all other types failing. I have had Mauser/type extractors fail. The only Rem extractor I have had fail in part was on a 788. The retaining clip was broken through but it all stayed in place and extracted reliable. Just would not eject properly as there was not enough tension on the rim.

Agree with the Model 30A




That little Rem spring steel C clip extractor does an amazing job. I’ve never had one fail. Ever. In the case of that 7600 Police I spoke of earlier, the problem was not with the extractor. Remington buggered the bolt head / bolt face machining so the bolt face woudn’t retain the C clip...... One can not extract if the extractor will not seat in the bolt face C clip groove. Its a really ingenious design. Simple and highly effective. BUT one needs to manufacture it properly in the first place.

I have heard of Rem extractor clips breaking but only after years of neglect and rust eats through the clip.... but that isn't the gun’s fault nor is it a design flaw. I personally have not experienced a broken C Clip and I caution that the “I have heard of” is only citing Internet heresy.





I am with you guys, I have owned Remington's my entire life..which, BTW, is sadly now over a half century as well..have shot thousands of rounds through the Rem's I own...in fact I never had an issue until I was convinced by another hunter I needed to replace the extractor in my .416 Custom shop Remington with a Sako extractor..not sure if it was the gunsmith who screwed it up or what..but have had issues with it not functionally correctly since..taking it back to have a Rem reinstalled..buy hey, that's just me..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Daryl_S
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Re: Remington filing for bankruptcy [Re: Ripp]
      #312498 - 17/02/18 05:03 AM

The 'problem' had to have been the guy who installed it.

This is a common 'fix' for the small cir-clip extractors Remingtons come with, that sometimes give
fits for stool shooters (small-bore Benchrest) due to the hot loads they use, causing problems.
Done correctly, the beefier "Sako" style extractor is much more positive in extraction properties.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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