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Postman
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Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality
#311596 - 03/02/18 11:55 PM

So if one were to go on a DG hunt and then extend the trip to hunt various PG and only bring a .458 Lott, how badly would one be handicapped if the .458 Lott were the only rifle brought on the trip?

For example, the DG part is easy..... relatively close shots and using softs + solids of either 450 or 500 grains and of suitable construction.

The equation gets a little muddier with the plains game side of things where ranges can get quite a bit longer....... Think Namibia.......

The ballistics tables hold some promise using 400 grain Woodleigh PP SN bullets driven to at least 2500 fps with a maximum point blank range of 250 yards with 3000 foot pounds of energy and terminal velocity close to 2000 FPS...... This would suggest to me that other than the unpleasant recoil, muzzle blast and weight of lugging the heavy rifle around, one could hunt even larger plains game i.e. eland out to 250 yards without hold over......

At 300 or 350 yards, the velocity drops off and range estimation become factors..... Assuming one can overcome these distance derived obstacles, what about terminal velocity where the 400 grain bullet gets down to 1700 or even 1600 FPS with 2000 foot pounds of energy...... Shot placement is always the most important factor, but at these extended ranges, is there enough horsepower to get the job done?

I am really interested in the thoughts of the membership on this subject. Yes, I do realize that there are better caliber choices to fit in to this broad performance envelope, e.g., the 416 Rigby comes to mind, but my question is VERY SPECIFIC to the .458 Lott.

Edited by Postman (04/02/18 06:48 AM)

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Ripp
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Postman]
#311601 - 04/02/18 01:23 AM

I will take the bait and attempt to answer based on my experiences..

The closest and most similar example I might have is my first trip to Zim...brought a 300RUM and a 416Rem..was suppose to be a buffalo/leopard hunt along with plains game for baiting, etc...I had unfortunately loaded 180Gr Nosler Accubonds in the 300RUM..velocity was checked at 3370fps..after the bullet failing miserably on a waterbuck and kudu..switched to using only the .416 for the next 16 days of hunting..shot numerous impala, another kudu, 2 zebra, eland, wildabeast, 2 bushbuck, etc..most shots were 150yds or less..however did shoot one bushbuck at a ranged 265..fortunately made the shot..

My velocities were around 2450fps using a 400gr Swift A-Frame bullet..my bc might be a bit better however you have a few more fps..

I personally feel, as you state, there are better choices, or you could bring 2 rifles which is what I always do anyway when traveling that far..things happen, scopes go bad, rifles break, etc..however if your heart is set on taking the 458 Lott, believe you could be fine out to 250-275..after that its going to get a bit more tricky...IMHO..

I took a .375H&H to Cameroon last year..great flat shooting caliber..worked great on PG..however was a bit disappointed on how it performed on the western cape buffalo...even though it was a good solid shot and a one shot kill..the initial result was very noticeable compared to the others I have taken with my .416...for DG, think you choice of the .458 is much better than the .375..

As one of the other members has stated numerous times, its more the man behind the gun than the rifle or caliber.. practice.. the only reason i was able to make shots with the 416 beyond 200yds is that I did practice and knew where to hold on the scope at 250..othewise I probably would have blown the shot..

My .02's ...get what you pay for.

Ripp

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Ripp
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Ripp]
#311602 - 04/02/18 01:28 AM

Another possibility, use a rifle at the ranch you are hunting on or one of the PH's rifles..my buddy I travel and hunt a lot with did exactly that last fall..went to Namibia and SA, never even brought a rifle as its become such a shit show anymore...

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NitroX
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Ripp]
#311611 - 04/02/18 02:09 AM

This is the very reason the .375 anf .400's exist.

However deprends on the shooter and if they are capable with the .458. Only way to find out is to actually use it for medium game a lot and at different distances. And failing that at paper targets.

In Australia years ago when ferals were far more common, hunters used to "practice" with their big bores on feral pigs shooting often hundreds of them before a safari.

However I don't think I would like to have to take long range eg 250 plus metre shots with a .458 Lott, especially if using prone or similar constricted rests. I think one will be restricted to standing shots uising sticks and sitting shots.

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Rule303
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: NitroX]
#311654 - 04/02/18 09:04 AM

My 2 bobs worth. With the ballistics you quote you have a 350mt rifle. Hold over from POI at 300 should be around 10 to 12" so about 18 for 350 if 12 for 300. Just rough in mind calculations. Only way you will know is to test it.

Now the important points, at least to me. If the 400's do not shoot to the same point of impact as your DG bullets then you need another scope. My preference would be for another rifle. I know my 416 Rigby is a 350mt rifle-not needed more than 15" hold over for the 400grain bullet and a 400 to 450mts rifle with the 340 grain Woodlieghs. However there point of impact is different. I would limit my self to the 350 mt. shots.

All this is dependent on whether you can shoot the rifle from various rests accurately.

Edited by Rule303 (04/02/18 01:43 PM)

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500Boswell
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Rule303]
#311672 - 04/02/18 04:09 PM

Cant see why not, use a lighter projectile for the plains game 350 gr projs etc ,take two scopes ,a removable muzzle brake is a good idea [if you need or want one ] or b. take a two barrel gun ,most shots would be around 200 yards anyway or less

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tinker
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: 500Boswell]
#311674 - 04/02/18 04:18 PM

Look at the Barnes 350gr spritzer.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101041...-free-box-of-20

I have a 458wm load with it that runs at about 2600fps if I recall correctly.
It's got a great BC - punch it into JBM ballistics and see.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: tinker]
#311675 - 04/02/18 04:23 PM

Here's a discussion from somewhere else on Lott loads for that bullet.

https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?t=17659&p=149395

Irons for your DG bullet, QD scope for the 350 and with a 2800+fps load you should have a really long point blank zero.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Ripp
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: tinker]
#311686 - 05/02/18 12:10 AM

Quote:

Here's a discussion from somewhere else on Lott loads for that bullet.

https://forum.nosler.com/viewtopic.php?t=17659&p=149395

Irons for your DG bullet, QD scope for the 350 and with a 2800+fps load you should have a really long point blank zero.

Cheers
Tinker

That's cooking..and agree..at 2800fps..would do well for the longer shots..really have good luck with the Barnes

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Postman
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Ripp]
#311687 - 05/02/18 01:44 AM

The ballistic “efficiency” drop off point that balances velocity vs BC vs bullet weight is the really intersesting part of this equation.

I think the biggest longer range dilemma and the root of my question/concerns (assuming I would be proficient in range estimation and proper hold over) will manifest itself is the BC of the projectile. Below 350 grains at extended range, i.e 300 yards+, the BC of the stumpy light weight bullets (particularly lead based) makes the terminal velocity very low and retained energy reduced significantly and with the relatively large .458” diameter, I would be concerned about sufficient penetration, particularly if shot placement is not a perfect heart/lung shot through or between ribs.

I was at the indoor range last night playing around and the 350gr TSX gives one ragged hole accuracy at 50 yards with 79 grains of Varget. The Woodleigh 400 grain PP SP demonstrated the same level of accuracy but using 1/2 grain below maximum charge of H4895. The Hornady 325 grain FTX plastic nose bullet over 79 grains of Varget shot lovely shotgun patterns, probably in part due to its ogive being 100 miles away from the barrel lands. The 500 grain Swift AFrames printed ~ 1” at 50 yards - not relevant to the light weight bullet discusion but interesting accuracy note and certainly plenty sufficient for DG ranges. All loads used Federal 215M primers (yes I hoarded a small private stash) were moderately crimped. The next time I go I will need to chrony the loads to determine just how fast they are clocking.

I am not fussed about the recoil as my rifle (a bespoke Heym Express bolt action) is of good design and fits me extremely well and in any event I am generally ok with stout levels of recoil. My .500 NE double is managable but starts to ring my bell on the recoil front after 10 or 20 shots and I don’t use nor feel the need for muzzle brakes outside of the target range (think Lapua .338). The Lott is more of a softer push than a brutal high recoil speed smack like one gets with the hyper velocity Weatherby big bores.

Edited by Postman (05/02/18 02:07 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Postman]
#311697 - 05/02/18 04:03 AM

Glad the 325's didn't shoot well. They are too soft for anything the size of moose, according to some locals who have Marlins. They said might be a good deer load, though. Those factory loaded rounds were barely making 2,000fps, I suspect.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Claydog
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: DarylS]
#311704 - 05/02/18 09:27 AM

As far as practicality goes I have never liked having different loads and setups for the one rifle on the one hunt. Never seem to have the right one at the right time or they get mixed up. Would be happy to use the Lott as an all rounder for the hunt. Just know it well and know yours and its limitations.

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Postman
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Claydog]
#311707 - 05/02/18 11:09 AM

So I spent the afternoon today at the outdoor range..... light but steady snow flurries and one degree above freezing....

Anyway brought the chrony.... Interesting readings....

The Woodleigh 400 grain PP SP clocked at 2550 FPS with single digit variances shot to shot.

The Barnes 350 grain TSX clocked at 2250 FPS..... The Varget load I was using is obviously well removed from optimal.

The Swift 500 grain AFrames clocked at 2150 FPS.

And last but not least the Hornady FTX clocked at 2350 FPS although other than going bang, they don’t do much for me in this rifle and particularly in light of Daryl’s commentary can eliminate them as a PG bullet.

After dialing in the scope(I had to change out the Swaro for a S&B PMII 1-8 CQB because the Swaro wouldn’t adjust enough vertically to be in the bull at 50 yards - top of travel and it was 3” low”), I played with shooting the Woodleighs at distance with a 200 yard zero... At 200 yards, I shot the first 3 shot group measuring 1.4” centre to centre and a second group of 1.8” centre to centre. Then I shot at the 300 yard plates and was able to consistently bang the 12” plate for a good 15 consecutive shots with no misses by holding the first subtension wire below the centre crosshair level with the top of the plate.

It would appear that I’m going to be in pretty good shape with the 400 grain Woodies!!!

Edited by Postman (05/02/18 11:16 AM)

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Rule303
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Postman]
#311714 - 05/02/18 06:14 PM

I think Varget (AR2208) might be a bit slow for the Lott. H4895 (AR2206H) is slightly faster powder and certainly a better option I would think.

I may have missed it but do the 400grain and your DG rounds print to the same point of impact at 50mts?

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Postman
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Rule303]
#311727 - 05/02/18 09:43 PM

Quote:

I think Varget (AR2208) might be a bit slow for the Lott. H4895 (AR2206H) is slightly faster powder and certainly a better option I would think.

I may have missed it but do the 400grain and your DG rounds print to the same point of impact at 50mts?

The DG Swift Aframe 500 grain softs print an inch or so lower than the 400 grain Woodleighs at 50 yards.

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DarylS
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Postman]
#311745 - 06/02/18 03:44 AM

"The Woodleigh 400 grain PP SP clocked at 2550 FPS with single digit variances shot to shot."

That's 100fps higher than I got with the Barnes in my .458 Alaskan. Hell of a good load, especially considering the accuracy and your 300yard shooting with it.

Well done.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: DarylS]
#311752 - 06/02/18 06:14 AM

Postman, what is the distance between your bore center and your scope's center?
How far from the muzzle was your chronograph?
What was the atmosphere condition and elevation where you took velocity?
A date/time/location would probably do.
Have you plugged this info into JBM ballistics yet?

I'm interested to see a chart of that load.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Postman
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: tinker]
#311782 - 06/02/18 12:28 PM

So the line of sight is 2.11" above the bore. Barrel length is 22". Shiny new Heym Express Rifle Ordered ~ June 2016. Mfgr date stamp Jan 2017 (Then took them till now to find suitable lumber for it - worth the wait. Its nice lumber!!)

The average velocity was 2540 +/- 9fps measured over 16 shots using a Lab Radar Chrony placed ~ 8" directly to the right of the muzzle.

The shooting was done yesterday, Feb 4th at the Oshawa Ontario gun Club..... No idea of height above sea level, nor barometric pressure.... It was cold but not damn cold like today!!!!

I don't own the JBM Ballistics program.

Load data is as follows:

Norma Brass - new not sized, however a Sinclair primer pocket uniformer was used to prep each piece of brass

Fed 215M Primer

H4895. 86.2 grains. Harrell Powder measure settings: 152.0 0/3 Culvers. Each powder charge was dropped using a Harrell long powder drop tube

OAL = 3.472"

Neck Dia = 0.4780

Case Length = 2.792

Light crimp into the crimp ring.

And the usual squinty print: This load data did not exhibit signs of excessive pressure in MY rifle HOWEVER it may NOT be safe in your rifle! Use this load data at your own risk.

Edited by Postman (06/02/18 01:36 PM)

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tinker
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Postman]
#311785 - 06/02/18 02:56 PM

JBM ballistics has a free - and spectacular - online ballistics calculation machine.

Your elevation is about 350' above sea level.
Temperature yesterday was hovering right around freezing.
Humidity was about 93 percent
Barometric pressure was about 29.7" HG

2.1 center over bore sight height
2450 fps ten feet from the muzzle
400gr PP, G1 BC at .340

If your impact was a half inch high at 50 yards, your zero would be 165 yards.

Punch that into JBM ballistics calculator and have a look.
Screw with your zero range to agree with whatever you've recorded on paper.

http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmtraj-5.1.cgi

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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tinker
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: tinker]
#311786 - 06/02/18 02:58 PM

Also - take a look at local conditions and altitude for hunting areas you'd be interested in hunting.
Values can affect trajectory.

Notice you can punch in a vital zone radius and calculate a maximum point blank zero while you're at it.

Woodleigh recommends 1800-2100 fps for impact velocity.
At 300 yards that 400pp is going 1729.
You likely have room for more speed in that 458 Lott case.
2550 gets you just over 1800 at 300 yards.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Rule303
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Postman]
#311789 - 06/02/18 06:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I think Varget (AR2208) might be a bit slow for the Lott. H4895 (AR2206H) is slightly faster powder and certainly a better option I would think.

I may have missed it but do the 400grain and your DG rounds print to the same point of impact at 50mts?

The DG Swift Aframe 500 grain softs print an inch or so lower than the 400 grain Woodleighs at 50 yards.

So sight in for the 500 grain Aframes. What solids will you be using and where do they print.

I am lucky with my 416 Rigby as the 410 Woodleigh soft nose and the 400 Hydros make one group.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: tinker]
#311798 - 06/02/18 07:00 PM

Thanks for posting that link, the ballistics calculator certainly is very comprehensive.

Waidmannsheil.

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Postman
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#311801 - 06/02/18 09:49 PM

I have not tried solids yet. I have 450 Grain A-Frames and 450 grain Barnes banded solids waiting to be loaded and tested as well as some Hydros but I can’t recall their weight - need to go rummage through my small collection of Hydro bags to see what they weigh. I bought ‘em a couple of years ago to use in a .450NE. I shot the 500 grain A-Frames because they were alreadly loaded and handy to throw in to the range bag as an afterthought. I was focused on the lighter bullets and longer range possibilities of the Lott. For DG, the ranges are much shorter and a ballistic sweet spot likely easier to find with a cartridge such as the Lott so my focus has not been there yet.

The 400 grain PP SP Woodleighs, catalog #30 have a recommended impact velocity of 1900 - 2500 fps with a BC of .340 according the the Woodleigh catalog - they also now print impact velocities on the box label.

They would appear to be a fairly stout design to be able to withstand such a high imact velocity as 2500 fps which is atypical fo a Woodleigh weldcore’s recommended performance envelope in a .458 diameter. This does however reinforce one of my concerns about terminal velocity when ranges get on the long side...... How will the bullets perform if used at long for .458 ranges? What if one strikes a larger antelope at say 300 meters when terminal velocity falls below the Woodleigh performance envelope? I suppose the effect would be minimal expansion. I’d hope for fairly deep penetration though.

I know its a bit of an acedemic “what if” discussion, but hey, what if?? My longest shot on any game animal to-date is about 265 yards if I recall the yardage correctly...... a white tail deer taken with a scoped 9.3x74R Merkel SxS...... 250 grain Barnes TSX that diagonally went from left shoulder to right hind quarter and exited - but a 9.3 has much less diameter and frontal area and therefore less resistance when it comes to penetration. Maybe I’m overthinking this?

I do not like to take long pokes at game animals, but sometimes one is just not offered a better shot......

Edited by Postman (06/02/18 10:28 PM)

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tinker
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: Postman]
#311806 - 07/02/18 01:20 AM

I thought I'd seen 1800-2100 on the woodleigh site.

Went back and copied this:

30 458 Mag .458" 400gr PP 1900-2250
You might want to double check the 2500 number.

Still, for your interest the range of impact velocity seems it might be narrow.
I'd phone the guys at woodleigh.

I'd chosen the 350gr Barnes spritzer X-bullet years ago for many reasons, including the wide range of effective impact velocities.
It might help you to look at it, perhaps to test it.

Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Postman
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Re: Using .458 Lott for DG AND Plains Game Practicality [Re: tinker]
#311839 - 07/02/18 11:42 AM

Quote:

I thought I'd seen 1800-2100 on the woodleigh site.

Went back and copied this:

30 458 Mag .458" 400gr PP 1900-2250
You might want to double check the 2500 number.

Still, for your interest the range of impact velocity seems it might be narrow.
I'd phone the guys at woodleigh.

I'd chosen the 350gr Barnes spritzer X-bullet years ago for many reasons, including the wide range of effective impact velocities.
It might help you to look at it, perhaps to test it.

Cheers
Tinker

Hi Tinker:

You got me thinking.... A scary thought as I'm kind of a slow boy at the best of times, but after reading your post, I went to the Woodleigh web site and sure enough, you are correct on the velocity range.....It says 1900 - 2250 fps. Then I went to the bullet box.... Well I'll be damned. 1900-2500fps printed on the label on the empty box.

Then I got more curious.... Looked at the 3 full boxes I still have in the bullet cabinet..... Two of them are labelled 1900 - 2500 fps, and the third is labelled 1900 - 2400 fps.

Still not content, I went to the Woodleigh manual that came mail order a week ago..... Well holy Sh1t Batman... The manual says 1900 - 2500 fps for the 400 grain PP SN .458 caliber bullet....

So who know how dang hard these bullets really are??? Maybe they changed them and never updated the web site? I got the bullets the same time as the new manual was mail ordered so I suppose they're relatively newly made..... Not sure how long things sit on the distributor's shelf here in the far corners of frost bitten Kanuckistan, but just maybe they are of newer manufacture? Maybe they thickened the jackets to make the bullets a little tougher?

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