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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1046
Loc: fla
tower
      #310054 - 06/01/18 01:13 PM

the other day my dad handed me most of a 1853 tower musket. everything sans the barrel.which i havent found a replacement.so instead of an orginal barrel what would be a fun caliber on that old chassis?

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Lane
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Reged: 24/05/17
Posts: 29
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: tower [Re: ducmarc]
      #310298 - 12/01/18 06:36 AM

Maybe a barrel about the same bore as the original except with forsyth rifling for a round ball? I'm assuming it was .577 caliber originally. It should be a lot better hunting setup than firing the original .577 minie ball. Way flatter shooting that's for sure.

Lane


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Daryl_SModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: tower [Re: Lane]
      #310303 - 12/01/18 08:08 AM

1853? - 3 band Enfield .577? "Musket" denoted smooth-bore of .75 to .80 calibre, normally. Rifled musket denotes a smoothbore musket that was returned to the maker and was rifled.

Bobby Hoyt could probably fix you up with most any type of rifled tube, if that is what you want.

I would have to decide, what would I do? Because no one I know of is making progressive depth rifling, aside from PH in the 70's and 80's, I'd likely have a .58 cobbled up with a .48" to 75" twist & with .010" to .012" deep grooves for patched round balls only.

The gun design, if the 1853 Enfield does not lend itself to heavy charges of powder, thus I'd likely not have ANY compulsion to using 'conical balls' in it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 1972
Loc: Retired in Montana
Re: tower [Re: Daryl_S]
      #310320 - 12/01/18 05:22 PM

Post over on British Militaria Yard sale forum, WTB P53 barrel. I wouldn't be surprised to hear those guys find you one

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DD, Ret.


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Daryl_SModerator
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Re: tower [Re: DoubleD]
      #310322 - 12/01/18 05:36 PM

I've worked up round ball loads in models 1853, 1858 and 1861.

All of them shot 3" or better at 100 meters off the bags. The 1861 (Italian made with PH bl.), with it's 24" mil spec. tapered depth rifling barrel shot the poorest, 3" for 5 shots. The issue sights are very close together and do not lend themselves to accurate fire, however, 3" wasn't too bad, considering my eye sight, etc.

The 2 band as in the 1858, shot roughly 2 to 2 1/2" with it's 32" bl., while the 1853, with it's 39" bl. did 1 1/2" to 2". These were both tested back in the mid 1970's, using Parker Hale rifles, built to the mil. specs.

It actually liked (not surprisingly) the highest loads - 120gr. 2F. In both of these rifles, I used a .575" ball and .022" denim patch.

The 1858 shot best with 85gr. 2F and the little Musketoon, did it's job with 75gr. 3F. I upped it's load to 82gr. (3drams) as it shot better on our bush trail with that load. I won a few contests with it, at Rendezvous BC a couple years back. Due to the .574" bore size in my rifle, I used a .562" ball and a .022" denim patch.

One of the other lads (74yrs.old) at our club uses a PH 1861 with 50gr. 3F GOEX and .570" ball, .018" patch. He's hard to beat when he's shooting that rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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ducmarc
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Re: tower [Re: Daryl_S]
      #310393 - 13/01/18 02:21 PM

120grs of 2f that's a lot of powder.and its a 3 band.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Daryl_SModerator
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Re: tower [Re: ducmarc]
      #310401 - 13/01/18 03:43 PM

Yes, I understand your query - until you see the actual pressure generated back in those days - the mid 70's by the powders available back then. I guess I should mention that about all of the BP available nowadays, is much more potent than what was available back "in those days".

A perusal of the Black Powder Handbook put out by Lyman back in the early 70's will show this quite well.

They used GO (Gearheat Owen) black powder, not GOEX of the 80's and now as well as C&H black powder of the 60's/70's.

The GO was better at producing velocity than the C&H, used them. Up here, I used both of them as C&H was oft times easier to get than GO. At that time, C&H was akin to a poor grade of musket powder from the early 1880's period. It was slow, dirty and developed low speeds and pressure per charge.

In their 32" bl. .58 Lyman (Italian) Zouave .58, Lyman tested right to 180gr. 2F producing 1,625fps at 6,500LUP (lead units of pressure).
With GO powder, that same 180gr. charge, .562" ball of 260gr. and .020" patch delivered 1,737fps at 9,200LUP. They use lead crushers as the normal copper crushers gave erroneous & inconsistent readings, at such low pressures as generated by the black powder of that day.

In my 24" bl. Musketoon (2010), I started off with 75gr. gr. GOEX powder of (roughly)today, along with a .575" ball and .022" denim patch. That was tighter than tight, as the bore of that rifle was .574", but still doable with the steel rod and a good whack with my hand on the short starter. That load registered 1,308fps, yet back in 1970, Lyman had to use almost 110gr. of GO 2F to get the same speed. 1970 115?gr., vsa. 2010" 75gr. = same speed. That is a huge charge difference = 40gr., yet the same velocity. Swiss is even 'better' than today's GOEX. With velocity, you also get pressure, it is pretty much relative.

Back when testing these PH rifles, that 120gr. load of 2f I used in he 3-band, might have generated something like 1,450fps and only 6.500LUP.

Today, you can get that speed with a tightly patched round ball and about 100gr. 2F GOEX in a 32" bl.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1046
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Re: tower [Re: Daryl_S]
      #310874 - 23/01/18 12:32 PM

so the newer powder has higher higher velocities with lower pressure?i want to shoot my dads which he gave me mclean and brady 10ish gage but don't want to kill it.he used to use 1 f in a lipstick case on what i would guess a 1 or 1 and a quarter oz. shot ill have to ask him.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Daryl_SModerator
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Re: tower [Re: ducmarc]
      #310902 - 24/01/18 05:16 AM

I would shoot 3 1/2 to 4 drams with 1-1/8thoz, to MAYBE 1 1/4oz. shot.

ML's were 'usually' not loaded heavy, like the later ctg. BP shotguns.

In a non-choked guy, I would start at 3 1/2 drams (95gr.) 1F or 2F, then 3 thin overshot wads on the powder, then the shot (no cushion), then 1 thin overshot wad.

The idea of the overshot cards between the powder and shot, is they have little weight, inertia and are less likely to screw up the pattern. Guys on the ALR site came up with that one for their muzzleloaders to make good patterns with cylinder bores. The odd guy who actually worked at it, was able to get turkey head and neck killing patterns to 35/40 yards, pretty good for a 20 bore. Some simply overload their 20 bores with modern-type 10 bore loads of shot and 3 1/5 drams of powder, but rarely do better than 30 yards.

Heavy fiber wads tend to blow into the rear of the shot cloud by muzzle blast and cause the gun to shoot donuts.

This was evident in Greener's book with the high-speed shadow graph pictures, showing the difference in shot clouds leaving the muzzle with both choked and non-choked muzzles.

Too - you can use rolled post-it note pad slips for making shot-tubes. If at 20yards they go through the target paper like a slug, try patterning them further out, like 40-50-60 yards. You might be surprised.

As well, with the tubes, if well undersize, when pushing them against the overpowder wad(s), the paper may split(if weakened) which will also aid in shot dispersion.

Some guys got amazingly long range with their flint lock shotguns using partially slit bank coin rolls.

This might give you some ideas.

http://www.muzzleloadingshotguns.com/articles/eleypatentwirecartridges

I see the 10 bore load was 1 3/4oz shot in the Ely shot ctg.
Just in case you thought buffered loads were something new.

:"The paper wrapped wire basket was filled with lead shot mixed with bone dust. The bone dust acted as a buffer which kept the shot steady in the package and helped to prevent the shot deforming. Due to the significant difference in densities between lead and bone dust, the lead shot was most likely placed into the wire basket first and then covered with bone dust. By vibrating the cartridge, the bone dust would fill in the empty spaces in the shot, making a more solid shot package. Modern experience suggests that a light weight buffer can have a positive effect on pattern densities, particularly with larger sized shot."

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII

Edited by Daryl_S (24/01/18 05:26 AM)


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1046
Loc: fla
Re: tower [Re: Daryl_S]
      #310922 - 24/01/18 11:28 AM

so using the coin rolls as a wad would still use a card over the powder?

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1046
Loc: fla
Re: tower [Re: ducmarc]
      #310924 - 24/01/18 12:23 PM

neat article , chinese fingers came to mind now just have to make myself go to wally world and see what they have.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1046
Loc: fla
Re: tower [Re: ducmarc]
      #311083 - 26/01/18 11:28 AM

i see knight makes wads for muzzleloaders

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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