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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Daryl_S]
      #266016 - 06/06/15 10:02 PM

Was just looking at this older thread. I've got a vintage photo a friend posted elsewhere on the net last month to post if I can find it. I got excited because it showed a hunter using his Stutzen Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine to shoot cape buffalo. Now I got excited because I thought it was a 6.5mm and remembered 'fondly' the reaction from some on NE when I posted a friend was going to use his 6.5 M-S on water buffalo. It turned out the rifle was chambered for 9.5x57, the .375 diameter of the 57 mm case. Very buffalo capabale.

The .318 Westley Richards was considered a good cape buffalo killer, which is a .330 on a .30-06 sized case more or less. The 8x60S or a slightly lengthened 57 mm case with a .323 calibre bullet was a big buffalo killer. A lot of landowners and farmers used such rifles, could not afford a fancy .416 Rigby etc etc.

Bell reserved his .275 Rigby (7x57) for elephant and used his .256 (6.5x54) for buffalo.

I always think the main reason there is minimum calibres/cartridges for dangerous game is due to a mixed number of factors:
- adds to the mystique of dangerous game and Africa;
- authorities consider deaths of clients to be negative for industry sales (actually wrong, a clients death adds to sales, but not for the particular outfitter);
- probably to compensate for the bad shooting and aiming akills of the majority of clients.

BUT it is true, as experienced people will tell you, who have used marginal or minor calibres a lot, when the shit hits the fan, having a stopper sized rifle is a big bonus, to stay alive, confidence building, and if shot well very effective.

Funny, I would lack some confidence hunting elephant with a 9.3x74R, never done it. Would fell better with a .375 H&H with the right bullets. The elephant I shot would have died just as quickly with a .375 300 gr FMJ as with the .450 480 gr FMJ. Both were frontal brain shots. But when you can see an elephant waiting behind a tree to ambush you as soon as you come around it at 8 yards, a .450 is confidence building. Actually for the above 8 yard shot, a .600 NE would be the best confidence builder!

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AZDAVE
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: NitroX]
      #266034 - 07/06/15 05:07 AM

Just got back from a safari and shot my buff with a 450NE. I also took a really nice eland and sable with my 9.3x74 double with 300 gr swift A-frames. I would hesitate to hunt cape buff with a 9.3x74R with the understanding that the 9.3 is a killing round like the 375H&H but not a stopping round. The eland I shot was at 85yards and the bullet went through both shoulders heart and lungs. The old blue bull went 10 yards into the bush came right back out and fell over. From bang to it being on the ground was like 10 seconds. With buff you really need to make sure of your shot placement don't care if it is a 9.3 of a 600NE it is when they get wounded with a non fatal shot that they transform into the legendary Black Death.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: AZDAVE]
      #266039 - 07/06/15 07:11 AM

https://www.facebook.com/259588134165089/videos/291404850983417/

To add to the debate. When a marginal or less than stopper rifle is not adequate. Aaron Neilson using a .577 NE double rifle on a close call on a cape buffalo.

Sorry about it being a facebook video but that is the source.

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Ash
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: NitroX]
      #266045 - 07/06/15 09:48 AM

I want a 9.3x74r because (with 0 experience, going off ballistics alone) it's plenty capable for anything in this world. Maybe it's the skinny cases, rather than the bullet diameter, that puts people off?

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ozhunter
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ash]
      #266150 - 09/06/15 10:23 AM

The 9.3x74flanged and its bolt rifle version the 9.3x62 are fantastic rounds and quite capable for buffalo sized game

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Sunshine
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: ozhunter]
      #308840 - 09/12/17 05:24 AM

Dr. Kevin ‘Doctari’ Robertson killed more than 600 buffalo with a 9,3 x 62.
Just invite me for a buffalo hunt and I’ll take my 9,3 x 74R along. Same performance like a 9,3 x 62. Nothing else do I need.


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xausa
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sunshine]
      #308859 - 09/12/17 09:14 PM

I have never driven a motorcycle. Risking my life on a contraption which offers no protection in case of an accident is just not my cup of tea. Currently my chief means of transportation is a Ford Taurus station wagon and I am a much more careful driver than I was forty-five years ago when I entrusted myself and my passenger to a frail wood framed sports car, a Morgan, whose only concession to safety was a roll bar and attached seat belts.

I have shot buffalo with both a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .505 wildcat cartridge of my own design which duplicates the performance of a .500 NE in a bolt rifle. My preference is for the latter.

I once killed three buffalo with four shots in less than a minute using my .505. I might conceivably have done the same with the .458, but for me the choice was easy. The .505 simply gave me more latitude for error, where a 6.5X54 gives practically none at all.

One of my best friends was out for a Sunday spin on his beloved motorcycle when he rounded a curve and was met head on by a teenager driving his car on the wrong side of the road. He left behind him a wife, a son and a brilliant legal career. If he had been driving the family sedan he would have in all likelihood survived.

My choice of a cartridge to use on dangerous game is governed by how much recoil I can take. I abandoned an experimental bolt action .577 because the recoil forced me to take two steps back after each shot, and I realized that such an option may not exist in a tight spot with dangerous game.

Each hunter (and driver) must make up his own mind the size of risk he is willing to take, bearing in mind that he is risking not only his own life, but potentially those of his companions.


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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: xausa]
      #308865 - 10/12/17 08:19 AM

Quote:

I have never driven a motorcycle. Risking my life on a contraption which offers no protection in case of an accident is just not my cup of tea. Currently my chief means of transportation is a Ford Taurus station wagon and I am a much more careful driver than I was forty-five years ago when I entrusted myself and my passenger to a frail wood framed sports car, a Morgan, whose only concession to safety was a roll bar and attached seat belts.

I have shot buffalo with both a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .505 wildcat cartridge of my own design which duplicates the performance of a .500 NE in a bolt rifle. My preference is for the latter.

I once killed three buffalo with four shots in less than a minute using my .505. I might conceivably have done the same with the .458, but for me the choice was easy. The .505 simply gave me more latitude for error, where a 6.5X54 gives practically none at all.

One of my best friends was out for a Sunday spin on his beloved motorcycle when he rounded a curve and was met head on by a teenager driving his car on the wrong side of the road. He left behind him a wife, a son and a brilliant legal career. If he had been driving the family sedan he would have in all likelihood survived.

My choice of a cartridge to use on dangerous game is governed by how much recoil I can take. I abandoned an experimental bolt action .577 because the recoil forced me to take two steps back after each shot, and I realized that such an option may not exist in a tight spot with dangerous game.

Each hunter (and driver) must make up his own mind the size of risk he is willing to take, bearing in mind that he is risking not only his own life, but potentially those of his companions.




What a great post, as usual love it & very true !

The 9.3X74 is just as good or some times better than a H&H375, had lots of my hunters kill Buffalo-Bantang with them & I have been very impressed !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

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500Boswell
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308869 - 10/12/17 11:39 AM

If it was me I would keep the 9.3x74 for plains game that's its Forte ,its about faith and having confidence in the gun you are using ,you don't want doubts,if you do, things are more likely to go to crap .You can get a relatively cheap CZ ,Mark X in 458 Win Mag, make up your own loads with premium projectiles and you have something you have confidence in, and know is adequate ,and doesn't kick like hell ,its about responsibility too ,if the buffalo bolts after being hit the PH then has to deal with it , a story a PH told me about a wounded buffalo he had to deal with was not pleasant, after what happened to him and he nearly lost his arm .

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Ripp
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308870 - 10/12/17 12:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have never driven a motorcycle. Risking my life on a contraption which offers no protection in case of an accident is just not my cup of tea. Currently my chief means of transportation is a Ford Taurus station wagon and I am a much more careful driver than I was forty-five years ago when I entrusted myself and my passenger to a frail wood framed sports car, a Morgan, whose only concession to safety was a roll bar and attached seat belts.

I have shot buffalo with both a .458 Winchester Magnum and a .505 wildcat cartridge of my own design which duplicates the performance of a .500 NE in a bolt rifle. My preference is for the latter.

I once killed three buffalo with four shots in less than a minute using my .505. I might conceivably have done the same with the .458, but for me the choice was easy. The .505 simply gave me more latitude for error, where a 6.5X54 gives practically none at all.

One of my best friends was out for a Sunday spin on his beloved motorcycle when he rounded a curve and was met head on by a teenager driving his car on the wrong side of the road. He left behind him a wife, a son and a brilliant legal career. If he had been driving the family sedan he would have in all likelihood survived.

My choice of a cartridge to use on dangerous game is governed by how much recoil I can take. I abandoned an experimental bolt action .577 because the recoil forced me to take two steps back after each shot, and I realized that such an option may not exist in a tight spot with dangerous game.

Each hunter (and driver) must make up his own mind the size of risk he is willing to take, bearing in mind that he is risking not only his own life, but potentially those of his companions.




What a great post, as usual love it & very true !

The 9.3X74 is just as good or some times better than a H&H375, had lots of my hunters kill Buffalo-Bantang with them & I have been very impressed !





Agree 100% with everything said here..

Have also used 416 and 375 on buffalo-have to say given the choice, I will always stick with the 416 or larger...

There is a NOTICEABLE difference hitting them with the 416 vs the 375 in my experience..

BTW, this is coming from someone who does ride a Harley ..

Ripp

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ripp]
      #308881 - 10/12/17 06:24 PM

I'd be happy to use a 8x68S with 250 gr projectiles on buffalo. Can't do it for cape buffalo but may give it a try on water buffalo one of these days.

Same as I'd love to use a .318 Westley Richards with 250 gr projectiles for the same.

Pretty sure it will all go OK.

In reality all these and the 9.3x62 are in the same class of power as a 9.3x74R.

Now having had a water buffalo want to kill me last hunt I did, yes a .450 might be better. Except I probably would have hit the buffalo better at the range when he was lying down at a distance. And also stood up. Maybe even shot him better with the first shot, when his chest was partially covered by another buff's head in the way.

Now there is NO DOUBT I would have been far less happy when pushing through the saplings with one metre to three metres visibility ... then the .450 DR was FAR preferable.

My .375 and .404 would also be great and even better choices. I still do like the .450 for buffalo though.

PS The 10-bore WR DR is what is supposed to get the first nod next time.

--------------------
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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ripp]
      #308883 - 10/12/17 06:26 PM

I have only taken one Buffalo and that was with a 416 Rigby. Just my history. Would I use a 9.3 X64 -The closest a 9.3 get to the 375 and there is still a gap between them- on a Buff. No. Not now. If I had one and used it as much as I did the 308, 30-30, 303 and 270 in my younger years then probably would but it would be loaded with Woodleigh Hydros.

What it comes down to is, are you very competent and confident with the rifle and cartridge?


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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
      #308888 - 10/12/17 08:29 PM

Plenty of country's where you can use less than a 375H&H for Cape Buff, kind of rural myth this .375
minimum !

We have shot a bunch of Cape Buff with the 8X68S, I hate that cartridge myself but mostly the projectiles are wrong & the rifles it is chambered in I suppose !

Must add I like .45+ for Dangerous Game & yes big step up from 9.3/.375 to .416 & again to .45 then .50 .

I have shot hundreds of Water Buffalo with 308 & 30/06 when working for the meat works, all head shots with ex Mil ammo, back in the day !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton

Edited by Sarg (10/12/17 08:30 PM)


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Postman
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308890 - 11/12/17 12:14 AM

If the buff dies, well then, it was enough cartridge. The question remains however, “why would one select a cartridge one knows is marginal for the job when there are so many other better and cost effective alternatives?”

It is a killer, no one would dispute that, but a stopper it ain’t.

Sky diving, motorcycle racing in heavy traffic, untethered high wire acts, swimming with sharks, and a whole host of other high risk endeavors may be fun, but if you get bit, that’s on you. Don’t expect the blood thirsty crowds to be sympathetic when it all goes pear shaped.

Edited by Postman (11/12/17 12:15 AM)


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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308908 - 11/12/17 08:39 AM

Slightly off topic. Sarg, I love the 8x68S but then I have it chambered in a good rifle, can seat the projectiles out where they should be - not seated deep into the powder space - and use the Woodleigh projectiles designed for its MV and Hydros. Only shot pigs with it so far. My history with it.

Just interested in what bullets and rifles yours were?


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308916 - 11/12/17 04:10 PM

Quote:

Plenty of country's where you can use less than a 375H&H for Cape Buff, kind of rural myth this .375
minimum !

We have shot a bunch of Cape Buff with the 8X68S, I hate that cartridge myself but mostly the projectiles are wrong & the rifles it is chambered in I suppose !




Yes but it is the minimum standard for all countries. Though some have other minimums.

Which countries allow the 8x68S? Mozambique, Namibia? What is the standard/rules there?

For some reason German ammo makers often use some really silly projectiles. For example, Ithe Conepoint or Kegelsptiz. I shot the 300 gr KS in my .375 and it must have been flying like lightening. Also a tiny one hole three shot group at 100 metres. But a useless bullet.

In the 8x68S there is the KS and also a soft RWS SP. The TUG or H-Mantel might be better but probably not the H-Mantel for buffalo.

I would use a 220 gr A-frame or try the 250 gr Woodleigh RNSP. Plus FMJ's in reserve.

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John aka NitroX

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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
      #308921 - 11/12/17 10:16 PM

Rule303, I have seen a great many animals wounded with the 8X68, most likely more than you have killed

Some days my clients & I might shoot 5 or more big game animals !

When I worked in Zim it was a European rifle of some sort, I think a Carl Gustav with a Hog back stock, booted your face in as I remember & all those Euro projectiles, a few others when working in other country's & the last couple of years in South Africa with a German Weatherby & again different sorts of ammo, some worse than others, TUGs & H mantel for sure, still I don't like the .270 either for the same reason !

--------------------
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- General George S. Patton


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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: NitroX]
      #308922 - 11/12/17 10:57 PM

I think .375 only minimum in Tanzania, Zambia & C.A.R !

The rest have different standards, some on energy, some calibers & some on common sense, where I work in SA .375 is only recommended not a law & yes you can use 8X68 in Namibia & Mozambique, Ethiopa, Benin, Burkina Faso, Cameroon, Congo is a maybe (Dwarf Buff) not sure on Zim maybe 9.3 there, a lot depends on your PH !

As I understand & have been told any way, but rules change both ways & many countries that have now stopped hunting may have had .375 min rules eg Kenya-Sudan-Somalia-Chad ?

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308933 - 12/12/17 09:41 AM

Quote:

Rule303, I have seen a great many animals wounded with the 8X68, most likely more than you have killed

Some days my clients & I might shoot 5 or more big game animals !

When I worked in Zim it was a European rifle of some sort, I think a Carl Gustav with a Hog back stock, booted your face in as I remember & all those Euro projectiles, a few others when working in other country's & the last couple of years in South Africa with a German Weatherby & again different sorts of ammo, some worse than others, TUGs & H mantel for sure, still I don't like the .270 either for the same reason !




Sarg not saying you have not seen it used on a lot of animals. Re the 270, I have shot a shit load of animals with it and have never experienced these truck loads of wounding. I have had one wounding that should have been a kill shot with the 270. The first of the Nosler ballistic tipped Solid Base projectiles. Never used that projectile again. I suspect what you have witnessed is the ammunition. I ran some RWS 200grain through the chrony. MV was around 250fps less then my home loads. Bloody pathetic loads from the factory, same with some 270 loads.

The 8X57 has killed a more game than you and I will ever see, and it does not seem to wound like a ballistic superior cartridge. Same the 280 which is .007" bigger than a 270 does not seem to wound game as much. I have a mate here who has shot a truck load of animals with the 8X68s, no complaints from him or Carl Stumpfe, a PH in Namibia.

What I am saying here is I do not believe it is the calibre/cartridge at fault. I believe the fault lies with the actual bullet/powder combination used on the day and/or the shooter. These are the reasons I loathed the 243 for years when I first started hunting.

Edited by Rule303 (12/12/17 11:06 AM)


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Sarg
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
      #308936 - 12/12/17 12:54 PM

I think what you say is true as I believe the same but it doe's happen, making them suspect, same for 8mm Rem Mag, should be awesome but, wrong bullets & bad shooting in both, story of a guides live !

8X57 good, great if reloaded, .280 is great also (if you don't like recoil, big .30's are better for these jobs IMO) & strangely the 270 Weatherby has been a wonder killer, Deer-Antelope die like lighting, must have the bullet matching the speed on this one !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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Rule303
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308941 - 13/12/17 01:23 AM

Sarg, agree. What i also should have added is: I believe Jack O'Connor sold the 270 short by using the 130 grain bullet weight. I find the 140 to be more emphatic and only slightly slower then the 130. The 140 also holds velocity and trajectory better than the 130 for longer shots.

Re the 8mm's. Woodleigh make a 196 grain bullet for the 8x57 and 8x64 they make a 200 grain bullet for the 325WSM, 8X68s type velocities. Use the 196 grain in a big 8 and the performance will be wounding rather than fatal I feel. Their 220 goes well in the 8X68s.

Nitrox, Namibia do not have a min cal but a min Muzzle energy.


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szihn
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Rule303]
      #308944 - 13/12/17 03:46 AM

"the 270 Weatherby has been a wonder killer, Deer-Antelope die like lighting, must have the bullet matching the speed on this one !"

I have found this to be just as true with the standard 270 Winchester.

I also agree that the 270 is best with the heavier bullets, mostly 150s but I have used some 140s from time to time, and I have had excellent results with 160s too.

I started with 130s Waaaaay back in the early 70s and I found within a few years that the 150 did everything the 130 did better.
That's not to say the well made 130s were bad, but just that the 150s were better.


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Ahmed577
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Sarg]
      #308956 - 13/12/17 09:39 PM

Very well said.

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Rell
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Re: Is 9.3x74R ENOUGH gun for Cape Buff? [Re: Ahmed577]
      #308974 - 14/12/17 08:58 AM

I successfully used 303 and 215gr solids on a bunch Savanah buffalo in Ghana many years ago.

I’d be much happier with a 9.3x74r double then that Lee Enfield, that is for sure.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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