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NitroXAdministrator
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Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles?
      #30890 - 11/05/05 03:06 PM

Is the Lever Action a uniquely American hunting rifle?

Of the many types of action seen and used around the world, the lever action seems to be the most popular in the States, and indeed seems to have the strongest historical links to North America as well.

Is this true?



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IronBuck
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #30901 - 11/05/05 10:04 PM

I think you are correct. Especially because of the Westerns where the old Winchesters were so heavily used.

But even here in the states the lever guns are not as popular as they were 30-40 & 50 years ago. MArlin is still going strong, and Winchester as well. But we have seen the demise of some great actions like the Winchester model 88 & the Savage 99s. A shame because I have a 308 cal Svage 99 that shoots 3/4" groups at 100 yards. A great hunter!



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DPhillips
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: IronBuck]
      #30917 - 12/05/05 02:54 AM

It's odd that the lever actioned rifles didn't catch on more in areas where ranching is done by horseback or hunting medium size game in the thick scrub brush. I suppose by the time the lever actioned rifles were introduced to the rest of the world, bolt actions were catching their stride and chambered for more efficient and higher pressure cartridges capable of better accuracy, especially at longer ranges.

Hard to beat a nice compact lever rifle for hunting by horseback with the rifle in the scabbard.


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DoubleD
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DPhillips]
      #30936 - 12/05/05 10:00 AM

I always thought the Brits were more into the Lever actions than anybody.


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luv2safari
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: IronBuck]
      #30976 - 13/05/05 04:06 AM

IronBuck,

Nice to see that 99! I used my older 99 in 300 Savage as a saddle gun. I scoped it years ago with a Weaver K3 P&CH in Weaver pivot mounts for thick woods & brush hunting for California Blacktails. It shoots 1" at 100 yards with my handloads. I don't venture over the line into Kaliphornia any more, and have not used the rifle for too long now and will give it to my best friend's grandson for his first deer rifle.

My 99 has been absolutely reliable for these many years.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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DPhillips
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DoubleD]
      #30994 - 13/05/05 09:42 AM

I suppose we should make this lever action repeating rifles. Good pic DD.

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atkinson6
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DPhillips]
      #34284 - 04/07/05 04:36 AM

Well I'm sure the bolt action has passed the lever up today....

I sure like the lever guns..I have a 25-35 Win, 30-30 Win. 250 Sav. mod. 99 EG, 308 Sav. m-99F and a couple of others that are collector rifles....I still hunt with the 25-35 behind my house every year if I draw in the So. Hills..and when I hunt horseback I usually grab one of the Savage 99s with a scope on them....


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475Guy
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: atkinson6]
      #34293 - 04/07/05 06:55 AM

The short-throw bolt action has indeed surpassed the lever as the most popular gun out there. Everytime I've gone to the range, all I see now is the WHIZBANG ShortMag Remchesters there. I'm shaking my head as I start to unload my biggies since these guys are all just shooting off the bench. Of course, I'll clear the benches around me after a few 375's or 416's or 458's go downrange. To a man they never cycle their bolts from the shoulder when they do an occasional off-hand shot. American shooters, for the most part, tend to take the rifle off their shoulders and cycle the bolt at waist level.



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500Nitro
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 475Guy]
      #34298 - 04/07/05 08:30 AM


The lever action in .22 and Particularly 30-30 are or at least were very popular
here in Australia.

Probably not as popular now as they once were.

Mostly used by Pig hunters and rabbit shooters.

500 Nitro


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #34310 - 04/07/05 01:39 PM

Not American made but Finnish. What do you Gentlemen think of the Sako Finnwolf lever action rifles? I know they are not made any longer.



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475Guy
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #34333 - 05/07/05 01:55 AM

Is that the model that looks similar to a Win 88? If it is, they shoot fairly well since Sako's are good rifles all-around. One of my buddies' dad has one forever and a day, but if it breaks down, parts are hard to come by.

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Plains99
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 475Guy]
      #34405 - 07/07/05 05:22 AM

Even as recently as the 1970's in our area, most of the deer and farm/ranch rifles were lever actions. The Winchester 88 was highly thought of because of the power/range of the cartridges it chambered and several farmers that I knew owned Savage 99's in .308 and the Brownings were very popular, especially in .243. My first ranch rifle was a Model 94 in 30-30 because its what everyone thought I should have. I bought the rifle brand new for $114. The semi-autos like the Ruger Ranch Rifle and surplus AKs have stolen much of the lever actions thunder as "truck guns" for coyote control. But as deer numbers continued to grow and the popularity of deer hunting has overwhelmed all other shooting sports here the bolt action has become the most popular. I doubt very seriously that a good lever action is in any way a poor choice for whitetail hunting here but media advertising campaigns have created a desire for longer range bolt rifles. Younger hunters are buying bolt rifles because "if you don't want a .30-30 you get a bolt action rifle." The main exception is the .45-70 Marlin Guide Guns which are still sought after by younger deer hunters.

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475Guy
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: Plains99]
      #34412 - 07/07/05 07:53 AM

Like anything else in the bolt action and lever action will depend on the gunrags for generating sales. When the gunrags were writing up story after story about the 45/70 Guide Guns and Cowboy Shooting, Marlins took a big jump in popularity. All the Cowboy guns stayed with their shooters. Most of the GG's started to end up as used guns on dealer's shelves since most of the youngsters just couldn't handle the very fast recoil of the 45/70 with high performance loads.

It'll be the same for the Whizbang Short Mags, once everybody tires of them, you'll see a whole bunch of used ones on dealer's shelves. Everytime a couple of PAID writers write up something, sales seem to increase. Way it is.

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Plains99
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 475Guy]
      #34437 - 07/07/05 11:33 PM

I couldn't agree more. Same thing applies to the .17HRM. A lot of hype and a big fizzle. I was with a bunch of writers on a hunt and expressed the same opinion regarding the short magnums. They looked at me like I had eaten a roach. Generating gun sales is a big part of magazine income. Promote the product - sell the ad. I understand the logic but have become jaded with the whole process. Until there is some sort of dramatic innovation in ballistics or alternate cartridge design there is really little to be gained by all these whiz-bang new cartridges. Some of the new powders can be of great benefit. They can make the .458 Win Mag what it was supposed to be in the first place, for instance. Fad rules, often with little real benefit.

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DPhillips
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: Plains99]
      #34465 - 08/07/05 10:48 AM

The Winchester M88 was a good idea, but poor execution, at least trigger design-wise (technical term). Why that rifle chambered in 284 Win didn't break sales records is beyond me. I guess there was some speculation that the 7mm bullets were needing to be seated too deeply in the case in a true short action rifle. We know that is bunk today, and probably written by someone that never had used a 284. Speculation of the rebated rim causing problems was another myth some writers liked to damn cartridges with, without fact.

Oh well...


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gallatin
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DPhillips]
      #95084 - 24/01/08 03:48 PM

I must say, all my bolts have given way to levers. Have only one ruger 77 in 300wm left and it will someday be traded for a Browning lever. It all started with the purchase of a Marlin 1895 cowboy in 45-70, it has become my goto for every occasion. Even in the tight Pac NW woods it's the one I grab going out the door. Only the conversion of a sxs shotgun to a DR has gotten me away from them
John


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DarylS
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DoubleD]
      #95110 - 25/01/08 05:34 AM

DD- quite a colletion of Martinis.
; The Americans jumped 'the gun' on the levers by a few years before the Brits - nice try. While the Brits produced a lever actioned single shot, it was the concerns of Winchester, other obscure and not so obscure makers and Marlin who put the true lever repeating gun on the map.
; My Cadet is currently chambered in .17HMR, but I am weakening on running my AH reamer into it. 3/8" as a rimfire means it should be a 1/4"er as a centrefire, doesn't it?- HA!

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Daryl


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NE450No2
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #95140 - 25/01/08 11:42 AM

Lever actions are uniquely American for a few reasons.

It was individual "civilian" Americans that explored/conquered much of the West.

Playing Cowboy and Indians... It was a big advantage to have a repeater.

Even though our military stuck to the single shot for much of this time, the "civilians" traveling in smaller numbers, quickly realized that the "gun you loaded on Sunday and shot all week" was essential to survival on the Frontier.

By the time "repeaters" were mainstream rifles, Europe had been pretty much "civilized", and common folk were under feudal rule and did not have the same freedoms, rights,or land expansion possibilities of America.

The same applied to the handgun.


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Schauckis
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: NE450No2]
      #95302 - 28/01/08 05:18 AM

A very interesting topic, indeed; thanks NitroX!

For a number of reasons, I use a lever gun myself.
To be honest, the main reason for this is John Wayne. From the time I was a kid I've loved Westerns and a cowboy (or the sheriff) of course only shoots a lever gun, does he not?
(And a [single action] revolver, but that's another story for another forum altogether.)

The other reason as I've brought forward before is me being familiar with the gun , thus trusting it and myself with it.
My father acquired a bolt action TAP Lakelander 9,3x62 a couple of years back, and it's a magnificent rifle. However, last summer on the shooting range when practicing I had a user-induced feeding problem with the gun. Although I've frowned upon this actually happening to some idiot in practice, I didn't pull the bolt all the way back which of course caused the bolt to jam on the next cartridge not feeding it. This did frighten me a tad, and I'm happy it happened on the range and not in the woods. After some practice, I'm sure I'd become very proficient with the bolt action, as well.
Some years back when I borrowed my uncle's Pystykorva (basically a modified Mosin-Nagant rifle) I had to rechamber very quickly after a miss and still today I'm flabbergasted at the speed I managed to do it. Also having some experience with a Sako .243 it's obvious that I'd manage a bolt.

However: I like the style and the usability of the lever action.
One reason for this is in the history of the lever action. Originally, it was a cavalry rifle. Now, when riding a horse you always need at least one hand to manage the horse and you may only have one hand for the rifle. If you hold the lever action in only one hand, you're likely to have your fingers through the lever's loop which makes the grip very secure. Also, when chambering the next round in a bolt action (or almost any other action except a lever) you first need to let go with one hand when moving it from the pistol grip to the bold handle. If you now need to let go with your support hand to handle the horse, you'll drop the rifle. Not so with the lever as your hand is all the time securely holding the gun through the lever. I and my father have noticed this same feeling of safety in the woods, too.
Additionally, chambering the next round in a lever is lightning-quick, second probably only to the slide action (pump action) - although the speed at which a bolt can be operated by a well practiced user leaves little room for wishes, so the discussion is probably academic at best.
(Note I said "chambering the next round" - not firing it so you double rifle enthusiasts need not spit your coffee over the keyboard. Same goes for self-loading guns, for that matter.)

I have no complaints as to the accuracy. Last summer I hammered three factory-loaded Sako Hammerhead rounds in a group of about 1.5 inches at a distance of 100 meters from sitting position. That's with open sights. (Which greatly annoyed me in that now I certainly have NO excuse to buy a new rifle.) I think this also proves Jeff Cooper's point about any (decent) rifle being more accurate than the shooter him/herself.

But getting to John's point about the (un)popularity and the reasons thereto.
Partly, it is likely to be a cultural difference. With few exceptions, only Americans have ever made lever actions. Therefore, they have been largely unknown elsewhere.
Secondly, the bolt action gun came in use quickly after the development of the cased cartridge thus making it the most familiar concept of rifle practically throughout the world.
Thirdly, we all know the virtues of the bolt action: accuracy, durability etc. There are actions which beat the bolt in some of these fields but I think the bolt action in truth is the winner overall with few weak points or features.
Fourthly, the bolt action gun can be manufactured at reasonable cost yet at fairly decent quality. On basis of what I've read, many of the lever action mechanisms (especially the latter improvements on the mechanism) are fairly expensive to manufacture: Sako's Finnwolf, Win 1895, the Savage etc. The more traditional types featuring a tube magazine are cheaper to make, I believe, which belief of mine is supported by the reasonable retail prices of such guns.
This brings us to the fifth point: the tube magazine. There have been but few designs which are not fitted with the tubular magazine requiring flat point bullets, or loading with only 1+1 - until quite recently with the introduction Hornady's rubber tipped SST bullet. (Imagine that: the lever's been around for more than 100 years and not until now did we see bullets developed to remedy one of the type's shortcomings!) This does limit the gun type's long range capabilities. I am of the opinion, though, that the problem has been exaggerated considering the fairly short practical shooting distances in the woods.
To continue with the list, the lever is never considered as accurate as the bolt action - or many an other type of action available on the market today. I disagree with this fairly strongly. It is certainly true that you'll probably never be able to squeeze out the last fractions of an MOA out of a lever gun, but for all practical purposes the lever action gun is plenty accurate. My good friend's grandfather used to use his old Marlin lever action to shoot birds from the treetops at +100 meter distances. This requires sub-MOA accuracy. I should add that his gun was not fitted with a scope sight.
Seventhly (?), many types of lever gun cannot comfortably be fitted with a scope sight. Many eject the cases up which would cause them to hit the scope and bounce back into the action causing a jam. Also, there may not be enough of frame for the scope mounts requiring some sort of special arrangement.
But see this: http://www.z-hat.com/
The last point that I can think of is limited power levels associated with the lever guns. Within limitations, it's probably true. I don't know of any lever gun whose action would lend itself to magnum-length cartridges. However, the .30-06 length cartridges are quite powerful for all but elephant. Provided that the action can take the pressure of the load of, say, a hot .45-70 or 9,3x62. See also some of Z-Hat's Hawk loads for the Win 1895 - very impressive, indeed! Or how about Marlin's heavier calibers?

Further to NitroX's question about the Sako Finnwolf.
I have no experience with the gun at all. I have read all articles concerning the model that I have been able to find. Not long ago there was an article in the Swedish publication Vapentidningen ('The Gun Journal') about the Sako. It called the Finnwolf the best lever gun ever made.
Some very interesting features were brought forward, such as the action being in practice a bolt action which via the use of cogwheels is operated with the help of the lever rather than a traditional bolt handle. This made the action both strong and accurate. Additionally, the barrel was free-floating making the gun as accurate as any bolt action gun ever.

What then killed off the Sako Finnwolf together with many other like types? Cost of manufacture combined with low demand, I'm afraid.
There are few of us Wayne's successors left although we die hard. It's rather a pity, I think, as the type is very usable, quick and has to my understanding proved to be reliable, too. Especially in the woods and scrub the lever gun is fairly short and handles and points well. Therefore, it is understandable that some of the Alaska game guides trust the type. An additional feat of the lever gun is that it readily lends itself to various take-down concepts, as per e.g. Z-Hat's concept and Wild West Guns' "Alaskan Copilot".

Interestingly, the hereinabove mentioned slide action seems to have suffered the same fate only being manufactured by Remington anymore. In some very potent variations, I daresay, including a stainless with synthetic stock and chambered even in .35 Whelen.
I don't think I have ever seen a slide action gun anywhere, not even in gun shows.

Long ramble but finally I got this off my chest!

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12FVSS260
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: Schauckis]
      #96086 - 06/02/08 09:46 AM

When I began hunting in Maine in the mid sixties lever guns were the hunting rifles of choice. Marlins, winchesters, and savage 99's were everywhere. Its still a good place up here to search for the older lever guns to collect or buy for hunting. I started with a 99 savage in 308 and along with a 250 and 300 savage they were the go to guns for me until the late eighties. I still have two of them that reside in the gun cabinet and nothing seemed easier to carry with their perfect balance and quick second shot in the thick bogs and dark growth. Now its tack driving bolt guns that interest and spend my money but the lever guns will always have a place in my heart.

Dave


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Dphariss
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: NitroX]
      #98272 - 04/03/08 05:40 AM

Quote:

Is the Lever Action a uniquely American hunting rifle?

Of the many types of action seen and used around the world, the lever action seems to be the most popular in the States, and indeed seems to have the strongest historical links to North America as well.

Is this true?






The LA is still pretty popular in the west. Good saddle gun. Remember the LA started here as the first repeater with the Henry at the start of the American Civil War. It became a necessary item for defense in the west though the early models were underpowered for hunting and many people had a Sharps or other powerhouse along for this and other long range work. The advent of the 1876 Winchester, the 1881 Marlin and the 1886 Winchester changed this.
They were flat, worked good horseback, provided needed firepower in a often hostile part of the world. They were first and best repeaters. They were reliable and fast to fire repeat shots. Everything needed for self defense at the time.
The Colt slide action was a very good design but the action could be worked by sliding it in and out of a saddle scabbard. The LA would not.

OOPs almost forgot. Most hunters here (Montana) use the bolt action and have for quite some time.
Dan

Edited by Dphariss (04/03/08 05:41 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: Dphariss]
      #98320 - 04/03/08 10:19 PM

I used a .44 Mag Ruger carbine over here for boar, nearly all shots are short range and I like the calibre at 120 yds or less but in the UK you can't use a semi auto and I have been invited to shoot a nice fallow stag this year AND you can't take a semi auto to South Africa where I am going in September. I visited a local gunshop the other day and tried an 1894 Marlin in .44 Rem Mag, I loved it. I am having the stock stripped and oil finished and an XS Ghost ring sight put on it. Then I'll be ready to go ! I love short handy carbines if the shooting ranges aren't too long, rgds, Mike

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bwananelson
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #98335 - 05/03/08 12:09 AM

i use a marlin 45 70 but now with hornadays lever medicine its a 1 holer at 100 yards 1 big ragged hole.have yet to try it on game,and i want to try the new scope cabelas has to make it a 2-300 yd gun,but i still think its a close quartesters thumper.

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9.3x57
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: Dphariss]
      #98385 - 05/03/08 09:19 AM

Quote:

The LA is still pretty popular in the west. Good saddle gun.

OOPs almost forgot. Most hunters here (Montana) use the bolt action and have for quite some time.
Dan




The lever is still quite popular for bear locally here, with the .444 being a very desireable caliber by houndsmen for its combination of close range power and tendency of bullets to stay inside the bruin.

I used to have more; .30-30's, .44's, .348's and .45-70's. Now only have a Winchester .44 Trapper we use almost exclusively for stock shooting and a .45-70 Marlin {first year of Ballard rifling} I have used on deer, bear and a couple range cattle.

Point of historical interest...the Savage 99 in .300 used to be an issue weapon for Idaho State Patrol. Was for many years though they are gone from that service now. Truth is, such a rifle would be hard to beat for an ISP officer even now in my opinion. Our local Sheriff's Deputies are issued old Army and National guard hand-me-down M16A1's and they too would be better off for most purposes with a scoped Savage, I think. Their M16's are beat up.

We had something of a shootout here at the place a few years ago, with a pack of wild stray dogs attacking my sheep and me not home to do diddly about it, being with my son about a mile away on another part of the ranch shooting ground squrrels. Now stray stock-chasing dogs are not uncommon here and I have shot quite a few myself, but these were not normal.

My wife went after the dogs with a Smith Model 640, missed one and figured with that they'd split as they do normally even if they see a person approach. They didn't, and in fact circled her and then commenced attacking the sheep again until my dogs picked a couple and rolled them. My then-little daughter called the Sheriff who sent two Deputies out and after they arrived they opened up with their M16's. My son and I heard the shots from a ways off and wondered "What gives?" but as shooting is quite common in these parts went back to our own shooting.

When we got home we found the Deputies had killed one of the pack and wounded another. I reckon they'd have killed more had they been shooting the oldtimey scoped 99's and had my wife even been armed with a scoped .22 she'd have piled them up even before the coppers got here.

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jimincolo
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101155 - 02/04/08 05:36 AM

Like many others in North America, I grew up loving lever guns. As a young man, I hunted with nothing else. Then one day, I decided that I was a ballistic expert; much too sophisticated to use a common carbine. For the next 30 years, I dazzled my buddies with an assortment of tackdrivers, & would usually take same to hunting camps. About 5 years ago, I invested considerable offseason time in reconstructing a lifetime of hunts. For every shot gained at long range because I had a full sized scoped boltgun, I lost 3 targets of opportunity at close range in tight quarters.

I had finally learned that there is a world of difference between a good hunting rifle & a good shooting rifle. Leverguns are good hunting rifles; quick to point, quick to follow-up & easy to pack & carry. They can also be recharged with fresh ammo while keeping the gun ready to fire. They remain as useful today as they were in the pioneer days.


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