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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #288752 - 06/10/16 06:48 AM

They are right at 875 grains.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #288760 - 06/10/16 11:13 AM

TKS Curl!

875gr. - same as an 8bore round ball in pure lead - interesting!

I must wonder how round balls would shoot? RB's would certainly penetrate better if of the same alloy.

Nice looking bullet design.

I find that such a large, heavy bullet usually fills out better if dipped, rather than bottom poured.

My only experience with that is 14 bore 750gr. through 1,200gr. Minnies. I get perfect bullets with dipping, but rounded corners and voids if bottom poured.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Heelerau
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #308860 - 09/12/17 11:53 PM

Chlorate of potash and flour of sulphur equal bulk well mixed and sealed with beeswax !! You will have a ball with that paradox !! A beautiful piece ! I would exchange my first born for such a gun !

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !


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tinkerModerator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #308868 - 10/12/17 09:23 AM

This one looks fantastic!


And I agree with the fellows above - you're hanging with a rude bunch.
Enjoy the ride!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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nitro450exp
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #309211 - 20/12/17 07:15 AM

Lovely gun.
In lovely condition.

Nitro

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: nitro450exp]
      #322748 - 24/12/18 11:15 PM

I've neglected this thread and do have some stories to tell.

A few photos:



Here is a photo of the muzzles to give you an idea of what's going on:





An informal living room photo (top, obviously):



I really need to do some glamour shots.


Some bullets:




A few loaded rounds (225 grains 2F, 2 ounce bullet):





Kaboom! A right and a left:






See my first two shots ever on YouTube: https://youtu.be/saNWxgyOW6c
Anybody want to give it a try?


Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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470evans
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322749 - 25/12/18 01:02 AM

Lovely gun, if you ever make it to Texas we can do a Paradox hog hunt. My 12 bore Paradox could use some company.

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 470evans]
      #322752 - 25/12/18 02:37 AM

Nice update Roscoe!

You know for sure that I want to shoot that 8-dram Paradox.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: tinker]
      #322755 - 25/12/18 06:50 AM

Lovely, Roscoe. Striking!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #322763 - 25/12/18 02:40 PM

This has been one very enjoyable thread to read!

Thanks very much for posting.

These guns are quite fascinating ad yours is so very beautiful a piece of working art.

Have you tried birdshot? If so, how does the gun pattern?

I've always wondered if these were basically considered to be "rifles" that can shoot birdshot in an emergency instead of the opposite.

Marvelous gun!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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TH44
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322772 - 26/12/18 07:10 AM

9.3X57, The original idea for them appears to have been a shotgun that could fire a slug if required

My own 10 bore Paradox, very early was as such, lightweight with straight hand stock, both shotgun and rifled Ball Gun (posted somewhere here)

when it became clear that they were as accurate as most rifles, lighter and with less recoil, H&H brought out a heavyweight 12 bore that would outperform the 10s, which did then, not sell

The answer was this wonderful Paradox, heavier and more powerful all round
The shotgun issue was irrelevant to the majority of richer hunters, a shotgun for birds as well as a lighter smaller bore rifle being taken on safari

Do not forget that at this time, before Nitro powders, the 8 bore, and now this 10 bore was the standard Dangerous Game rifle, with the mighty 4 bore (or heavyweight 8 bore Paradox, at around 15lbs, more handleable) for close up work
The advent of the .450-.600 Nitro rifles theoretically made them obsolete (although I certainly prefer them myself)

TH44


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4seventy
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322782 - 26/12/18 10:47 AM

Wow, what a beautiful piece!
It would make a wonderful Oz Top End allrounder.
Buffalo Boar and Geese.
Damn, now you've spurred my interest!

Superb gun Roscoe!


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9.3x57
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: TH44]
      #322786 - 26/12/18 04:35 PM

Quote:

9.3X57, The original idea for them appears to have been a shotgun that could fire a slug if required

My own 10 bore Paradox, very early was as such, lightweight with straight hand stock, both shotgun and rifled Ball Gun (posted somewhere here)

when it became clear that they were as accurate as most rifles, lighter and with less recoil, H&H brought out a heavyweight 12 bore that would outperform the 10s, which did then, not sell

The answer was this wonderful Paradox, heavier and more powerful all round
The shotgun issue was irrelevant to the majority of richer hunters, a shotgun for birds as well as a lighter smaller bore rifle being taken on safari

Do not forget that at this time, before Nitro powders, the 8 bore, and now this 10 bore was the standard Dangerous Game rifle, with the mighty 4 bore (or heavyweight 8 bore Paradox, at around 15lbs, more handleable) for close up work
The advent of the .450-.600 Nitro rifles theoretically made them obsolete (although I certainly prefer them myself)

TH44




THANKS!!

I'm generally familiar with the background but your information is very interesting.

I was curious about the actual patterning. Tests done with Screw in rifled tubes in shotguns indicate very poor patterning when compared with the regular choked tube. I'm curious how these Paradox guns perform with birdshot. I've never actually read a patterning review of them.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322793 - 27/12/18 03:50 AM

Quote:




Kaboom! A right and a left:






See my first two shots ever on YouTube: https://youtu.be/saNWxgyOW6c
Anybody want to give it a try?


Curl




curl
it looks like your left barrel is smaller than the right
look at the muzzle flash














--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: lancaster]
      #322807 - 27/12/18 09:01 AM

BLOODY AWESOME!

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tinkerModerator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #322810 - 27/12/18 02:53 PM

Perhaps a bit off topic - how do you like the LabRadar?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: tinker]
      #322815 - 27/12/18 10:16 PM

The LabRadar belongs to a friend.

It's great with smokeless powders, but it doesn't have a clue when using black powder. My Oehler 35P is the go-to device for any black powder loads.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ahmed577
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: tinker]
      #322816 - 27/12/18 10:19 PM

Having a 10 bore rifle choked gun almost finished built by Purdey. ( Purdey used the name “ rifle choked “ ) to describe their paradox equilivent. I am led to believe a 10 bore paradox (holland) was never a true 10 bore, it was slightly under 10 bore. My 10 bore Purdey should be a true 10 bore. The Purdey is built as a rifle 27” barrels with an extra set of smooth bore barrels 32” for goose in the NT Australia.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Ahmed577]
      #322817 - 27/12/18 10:31 PM

The H&H 10b Paradox was actually closer to a 9 bore.

Here's an excerpt from The Field, September 15, 1906 in which H&H answers a question concerning its philosophy in developing the heavy 10b Paradox:




This was re-printed in Baker & Lake, Paradox, The Story of Col. G.V. Fosbery, Holland & Holland, and the Paradox, Vol. 1, page 184.

I am sizing my bullets to .805", which is about a thousandth below actual bore diameter.

I will be quite interested to hear how your shooting goes with the Purdey. Do you know what bore dimensions they are using? What ammunition will they use for regulation? Will the case be brass or paper (plastic)? What will be the finished weight? Many questions!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ahmed577
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322818 - 27/12/18 10:52 PM

Will be going to england 5/19 and will get a lot of information then. The gun comes with a mould tool. Purdey have sent photos of the gun however I am unable to post to this forum. Next year I will give a better report.

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DarylS
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: Ahmed577]
      #322825 - 28/12/18 05:29 AM

Cpt Curly, question if I may.
You noted sizing bullets to .001" under bore size.
What alloy are you using?
Observation is that they (nicely shiny) are a tin/lead mix of perhaps 40:1 or slightly harder maybe 30:1.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: DarylS]
      #322834 - 28/12/18 09:56 AM

Daryl,

Those are 16:1. The original bullets by H&H were 15:1, I figured the 16:1 alloy available from RotoMetals was close enough.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322837 - 28/12/18 11:29 AM

Curl:

That excerpt from The Field seems to verify a thought I had about these guns. Instead of referring to the gun as a shotgun that can be used for big game, it implies the gun is really intended as a "rifle", with no direct mention of fine shot. That is, assuming the recommendation to using a 10 bore is for another gun, that is, to use another gun to develop skill, and use the Paradox in the field for big game.

Since testing buck/bird with a Hastings choke tube I've questioned the fine shot patterning capability of the Paradox. The excerpt seems to suggest, indeed, the gun is more "rifle" than shotgun.

The concept is quite interesting and I wonder also if it dodged any laws in Indian states, etc, where use of rifles might have been restricted or prohibited? I seem to remember there were some? Similar to the situation presently in parts of the US. I would THINK {?} you'd be able to use that gun in "shotgun-only" deer zones of various states. I'd think a good attorney { } could make a pretty good argument in court if a local game warden thought otherwise!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #322846 - 29/12/18 02:34 AM

Yes, the 10b and 8b Paradox guns were definitely made as dangerous game rifles with little thought to shooting shot. They have quarter ribs, pistol grip stock, and rifle sights that do not fold down.

At first, when H&H introduced the 10b Paradox they made it light as a dual purpose arm along the same lines as the 12b Paradox. It had fold down sights, a shotgun rib, straight grip stock, proved for 4 drams, and weight comparable to a 10b shotgun. It was not a good seller, as it largely duplicated the 12b Paradox.

Shortly thereafter, the 10b Paradox was transformed to a dangerous game rifle. It took on the rifle characteristics mentioned above, it's weight was increased to 13 lbs., and it was prooved for 8 drams with a 2 ounce bullet. As stated in the H&H excerpt from The Field, posted above, it was intended to supplant the 8b rifle. Kaboom!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 10b H&H Paradox - Am I keeping the wrong friends? [Re: CptCurl]
      #322847 - 29/12/18 02:37 AM

All this talk about my 10b Paradox makes me want to get it out of the safe and take it for a ride. Nice weather is coming in a day or two. I think I may have a go with it. Stay tuned!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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