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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Dutch44
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Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 72
Loc: Missouri
Feeding a Colindian
      #308049 - 21/11/17 12:23 PM

Could really use some help, gentlemen, to get my Colindian fed properly. It is a Circa 1895 model with a smooth oval bore. I attempted to fire two of Holland's Paradox loads but I believe they sailed over the 50 yard target. I could only believe that they were a little too large diameter and dwelled in the bore longer, due to their size, and shot over the target frame. Should I be using round balls or swaging down the Fosberry projectile to smaller diameter? I only fired two rounds as I could see the problem and was hesitant to waste more rounds until I could come up with an answer.

Any help is certainly appreciated. Love this gun and want to get it shooting. Thanking you in advance.


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lancaster
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Dutch44]
      #308060 - 21/11/17 03:41 PM

"but I believe they sailed over the 50 yard target"

believing is not enough, you need to know exactly to find a solution. in such a case I look for a bigger target to know in the end where the bullets go.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Grenadier
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Dutch44]
      #308070 - 22/11/17 12:24 AM

Starting at 25 yards would be my suggestion. Whatever is happening at 50 yards will still be happening at 25 yards but it will be much easier to capture on paper. It would also be helpful to shoot the rounds over a chronograph.

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Daryl_S
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Grenadier]
      #308083 - 22/11/17 05:53 AM

Start closer or use larger paper.

Slug the bore and use appropriate bullets or round balls.

Round balls will likely strike lower, however by 1895, round

ball guns were likely not still being made - seems to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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HistoricBore
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Reged: 28/09/11
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Daryl_S]
      #308086 - 22/11/17 06:04 AM

This old rule usually applies:

Heavy bullets Hit High,
Light bullets Lie Low.

Works for my 45-70 at 25 and 100 yards.

HB


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Grenadier
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: HistoricBore]
      #308090 - 22/11/17 06:20 AM

The Colindian was made to shoot the Fosbery type bullets.

Dutch is on the right track. He has the right bullets and bullet weight is not the problem. He has to see where they are hitting on paper to find out what's going on.



--------------------
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rigbymauser
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Grenadier]
      #308102 - 22/11/17 08:44 AM

I spoke to Paul Roberts many years ago about my Rigby Ball & Shot gun as it was an enigma how it functioned. With no "rifling" but with rifle sights up to 100yards I was puzzled to see even a roundball was to be accurate at that range. I too have fired H&H factory paradox ammo in my gun with no useful result. I also tried a slight larger ball(conical) but with no use. Paul Roberts was very frank in the conversation: "Most of the systems didnīt work". With the exception of H&H paradox system(Fosbery patent) not many gunmakers made many of these systems. Rigby made 24 and that says everything as I see it!. Not very succesful. In my almost 400 book library about hunting in India and Africa these ball guns saw most use in India. Hard roundballs backed with 5dram black was a usefull charge against elephant at `junglerange`. Here they might served the purpose. I presume my Rigby was meant for this. I donīt know how the riflingprofile look in the Colindian Ball & Shot gun. The best way the visulize this is to knock a cylindical bullet up-the-barrel and observe the airgaps. My Rigby has 3 indentments all the way out and sqeezing down to .735" at the muzzle from .743" at the chamber end. Hope this helps a little.

Edited by rigbymauser (22/11/17 08:47 AM)


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Grenadier
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: rigbymauser]
      #308105 - 22/11/17 09:47 AM

Quote:

Paul Roberts was very frank in the conversation: "Most of the systems didnīt work". With the exception of H&H paradox system(Fosbery patent) not many gunmakers made many of these systems. Rigby made 24 and that says everything as I see it!.


I have only owned and shot the Fosbery/Paradox system. But since you have said it I will offer that everything I have read and several conversations I have had with the industry people who would know support your statement. That is, a system that successfully fulfills BOTH roles as bore rifle AND shotgun. It should come as no surprise that the various ball & shot systems were quickly abandoned when the H&H Paradox (Fosbery Patent) patent expired and there was a rush to copy the H&H system. I did not know Rigby had made so few. Holland & Holland has made ~1500 over the years and is again cranking a new one out now and then.

That said, I would still expect to see Dutch's Colindian cut a group on paper at 50 yards and, after reading the tests in Shooting The British Double Rifle, to print a decent shot pattern at 30.

--------------------
~


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Daryl_S
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Grenadier]
      #308106 - 22/11/17 10:09 AM

Dutch,

For your Colindian rifle, I would not reject the idea that a round ball, soft or hardened, or a cloth-patched hard or soft round ball might work just fine.

The advent of a successful large calibre and strong enough breech-loader was the only reason round balls were cast aside for large and dangerous game. Until those stronger breech-loaders came along, hardened round balls were preferred as they out-penetrated the soft lead conicals needed for accuracy.

The ball loads I developed shot well enough to 100yards in my SXS smoothbore - bare but slightly undersized, but were held in the middle of the bore by a cupped wad. I used plastic, however a fiber wad or thick card with a hole in the middle, hard card underneath would also do the same work. The wad will be groove diameter at the breech. The ball can be undersized but as it is sealed and held in the middle by a cupped wad, they were still quite accurate.
I did mount a scope on the SXS for load development, but with that, I was able to repeatedly hit a 12" square plate at 100 meters, offhand, right/left - right/left.

I also experimented with cloth patched round balls in a straight rifled Husqvarna SXS in brass ctgs. where they showed better accuracy than the naked lead balls that were larger than the bore.

The cloth patched balls were seated and crimped yet appeared to perform perfectly. I was concerned the case mouth crimp might strip off the patch, but due to the pressures from behind, I assume, that did not happen. They shot very well, and cleanly as they were lubed with a BP lube - Track's Mink Oil.

I do hope this give you HOPE along with some ideas to attempt in order to get this marvelous gun working.

What a challenge - ought to be fun! Beer or Whisky helps cure frustration.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 285
Loc: East Coast, USA
Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: rigbymauser]
      #308109 - 22/11/17 10:23 AM

You are hearing all the right tips here.

Your ball & shot came from a very reputable maker, therefore, it was very, very likely well regulated and accurate when new. IF the bores, sights, stock, etc. are more or less original, then it is safe to assume that is still regulated and accurate when fed the right load. The trick is to figure out what load works. There was an article in DGJ by Ross Seyfried where he used one of these to take a cow elk. I do not recall if he discussed the load and sizing relative to bore dimensions. I do know that the bores are tapered as RM mentioned and it works with a Fosbery type projectile as also pointed out.

I think I would first slug the bore just ahead of the chamber, then do it again, but push the slug all the way through. This way you have dimensions just ahead of the forcing cone and at the muzzle. I would do the muzzle, just to make sure there is taper and your bore is not altered. A slug from an oval bore will be squashed and oval in cross-section(excuse me if you know this) with minimum dimension one way and a maximum dimension 90 degrees from the minimum. I would take the maximum dimension, just ahead of the forcing cone, and size my Fosbery projectiles to this dimension. You will have to cast, or have someone cast, the Fosbery slugs out of 15:1 lead:tin alloy, then coat them with liquid alox. Nei offers a paradox mould that seems to work for a lot of people. It casts .740 dia paradox slugs that weigh 740-750 grains.

The load that works will probably be in a 2 1/2" case (cut down federal paper or cheddite plastic), have nitro cards, felt & cork wads and either a roll or "fixed" crimp. The powder will most likely be Unique, but possibly black or Blue Dot. Velocity at the muzzle for the regulating load will be between 1050 and 1150 FPS.

Next question; do you have loading experience? If so, we can go deeper here. Also, there is a ton of older load discussions on NE and in DGJ that would be a huge help to you. The last guy that had a Lancaster B&S just called Ross and I guess he got what he wanted. Good project.


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rglenz
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Reged: 14/03/08
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Loc: w. Minn
Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: CommandCar]
      #308112 - 22/11/17 11:37 AM

Seyfried's article is in the winter 2009 DGJ. A gunsmith friend worked up some loads for a 12 bore Cavenaugh oval bore double, I know he used a paradox bullet and Federal paper cases. he said everything he changed,(wads, powder, ...) showed on the target. In the end, it would shoot 2" groups at 100 yards. The happy owner shoots his deer with it every year.

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CommandCar
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: rglenz]
      #308113 - 22/11/17 11:47 AM

Ditto, but mine is Fosbery choked.

I fired 600 rounds in almost 50 combinations - bullet/wad/powder/case/other changes. I had quite a few that grouped well at 50, then would not hit the target at 100. The bullets were destabilizing between 50 & 100 and flying all over the place. The only thing that kept me going was the belief that it must have worked when they sold the gun. Then magically, I stumbled upon a load that worked. When you find the load that works, it produces the 12 ga version of a clover leaf at 50 and 4"x6" or smaller rectangle at 100.


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Grenadier
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: CommandCar]
      #308119 - 22/11/17 01:52 PM

The Fosbery bullets are best launched at just under the speed of sound. Otherwise, the bullets will go trans-sonic in flight and become erratic. At subsonic speeds the Fosbery bullet acts very much the same as a pistol bullet. I once worked up the ballistic coefficient by chronographing them at the muzzle and then again down range and I was quite surprised. The BC was much higher than I expected. But once I compared it to BCs of other big cast bullets at the same velocity I realized it was right in there with them.

The original alloy was 15:1 lead to tin. Later, Kynoch at least was making them with lead and 2% antimony. You can look up the hardness of that mix but suffice to say it is still pretty soft. For the short time I was casting them and making my own ammunition I used the readily available 16:1 mix and it worked just fine. The current factory ammunition is loaded with a lead-antimony bullet. I bet they are following the old 2% formula Kynoch used but I cannot confirm that.

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CommandCar
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Grenadier]
      #308120 - 22/11/17 03:26 PM

Interesting, thank you for that Gren. My regulating load measures 1070 fps at about 4' if I remember correctly. Speed of sound at sea level is 1125, so I'm still subsonic at the muzzle? I had the load pressure tested and produced 1,185 fps out of the full choke tight .727 pressure barrel. My bore is .736 and slugs are sized to abt .733, so a little more room to mellow things out.
Kind of fun putting all the pieces carefully together, then realizing the exact reason a certain combination of wad/hull/powder/slug/alloy/crimp/lube/etc. works is still a mystery.

15:1 alloy was my second try. I started with 20:1, which did not engage the rifled choke sufficiently. I looked into the 2% Antimony, but did not look like something the DIY guy could alloy correctly.

I now think about these slugs moving through a Fosbery choke or tapered oval bore as something between fluid motion and an extrusion process. The changes that the slug undergoes as it is forced into the Fosbery choke is massive. The choke swages down and elongates the slug and the rifling leaves 7 distinct facets on the base of the slug. The projectile shape is really made in the choke. It is really a very different process than firing a slug in any other conventionally rifled barrel.

I'd love to get a batch of 870 (or similar) barrels made up with Fosbery chokes. Would be fun to experiment around with. Maybe we should try to get a Nitroexpress group buy list together? Anyone tooled up for the Fosbery choke?


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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
Posts: 285
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: CommandCar]
      #308176 - 23/11/17 01:28 PM

older discussion, good one.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=187622&an=0&page=6#Post187622


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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
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Loc: Texas, USA
Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: CommandCar]
      #308205 - 24/11/17 04:05 AM

Dutch,

PM gatsby on this site. He was a tremendous help in getting my Paradox up and running.


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Dutch44
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Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 72
Loc: Missouri
Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: 470evans]
      #308220 - 24/11/17 12:48 PM

Thanks to all who replied. I do have 45 years of reloading experience and have cast 15-1 with my buddy's original Paradox mold. That mold produces a perfect concentric projectile from the 1880's. He has the super magnum H&H Paradox that I can put 2 rounds in one hole at 50 yards dead center. I am looking for a great H&H Paradox but will make this Colindian work first. I love this rifle and will not stop till it is up to it's maximum potential. I agree that a quality maker did not make an inferior product.

I have a good friend that will make different size sizing dies for the original projectiles in .732, .733, and .734. I am going out to put up 600 yard silhouette targets at 25 yards to begin with and then see what they are doing. My buddy, Mike Graf (Graf's Reloading) is the importer for Cheddite and he has the empty cases for me to work with. I have another friend that made some round ball loads for my 16 bore open choke McCririck and I may be able to talk him into making some 12 bore round ball loads to try.

I lost Ross' phone number, after collaborating with him on a couple of magazine articles he helped me with, and would love to talk to him.

To 470 Evans, rglenz, CommandCar, Grenadier, Daryl S, Lancaster, HistoricBore, rigbymauser thank you for the information, encouragement. Now the fun part begins. This Colindian is a self-opener extractor. It fits my dimensions to a T and beautiful wood. I am a fortunate individual. My future deer rifle. Dutch


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Dutch44
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Dutch44]
      #308761 - 07/12/17 02:19 PM

Read Ross' article in the Winter 2009 DGJ but it leaves me with more questions than answers. My barrel flats show reproved to 2 3/4 at 3 1/4 tons, .729 and BNP.

Ross loaded black but I'm wondering if mine is suited for nitro, although the description in Julia's catalog said proofed for black but reproved for 2 3/4. Being a 2 3/4 I can get the paper hulls, fiber wads, and projectiles. Believe he said that he shunned the roll-crimp but the pictures seem to show both non-rolled and roll-crimped rounds.

Going to dig further and pattern the gun with 2 3/4 1 ounce 7's to determine suitability for pheasant then onto Fosberry projectiles.


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tinkerModerator
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Dutch44]
      #308762 - 07/12/17 02:56 PM

Those proofs might have been the only level of proof that they could have run in your gun at the time of re-proof.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CommandCar
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: Dutch44]
      #308763 - 07/12/17 03:32 PM

Unique and Blue Dot have been used in nitro for black loads in shot & ball and other shotguns. Since you have nitro proofs, you should be extra fine. The Blue Dot load Fosbery loading that worked in my paradox type generated 2 3/4 tons pressure (pressure tested by Armbrust). Think I would try Unique first though as Sherman Bell has pretty much standardized the use of that powder.

I pattern tested a few shot loads, mainly the gamebore from Kent as I wanted fibre wads. I found my normal game gun 28 gram loads crossed from the heavy paradox barrels. I needed to go to the heavier 30 gram pure gold gamebore loadings to get the barrels moving enough to superimpose the patterns. Velocity & recoil have to be just right. These should be very close to the commonly proved for 1 1/8 oz. 3 TPSI standard English shell.


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Dutch44
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Re: Feeding a Colindian [Re: CommandCar]
      #308804 - 08/12/17 12:02 PM

Thanks, CC. I'll start with the Unique load and pattern with the 1 1/8 ox. loads.

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