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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: chapmen]
      #301185 - 02/06/17 11:19 PM

looks like an original carbine was sporterized

with the indian provenance an interesting piece

--------------------
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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301195 - 03/06/17 04:07 AM

Haenel and Schilling made them from leftover parts. This one is very near at an military 88 carbine.
System shows " Gew.88 " , only crown "S" ( Schilling ) stamps on all parts and last two digits of sn. No military acceptance markings!

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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: chapmen]
      #301257 - 03/06/17 06:47 PM

Haenel and Schilling were still making new actions and also complete carbines for export to china and south america up to 1914. the better quality hunting rifles I collect here in this thread were build on brand new carbine actions. the cheap quality hunting rifles are real sporter made from surplus military rifles. imho, there was no production of M 88 rifles in Suhl ever but only carbines.


here we have them all

the high quality gentlemans rifles for 95 Mark





the "Reptier-Pirschstutzen" in 8x57I as a hunting rifle made from a carbine 88 with hunting sights and another sling swifel for 44 Mark. to change the barrel for the 9x57 was a littleness in Suhl than.

the original M 88 military rifle for 55 Mark is probably surplus and the M 88 carbine for 40 Mark maybe a new made gun from Schilling or Haenel too because you read "like those in service with the german cavalry". add 4 mark for the hunting sight and sling swifels and you have the "Repetier-Pirschstutzen" above. your Lyon&lyon carbine have also those sling swifels!


such guns had sometimes the notice "cheap rifle for delivery into the colonies" simply because it was also a first and third world hundred years before and people there had not so much money.




a friend in Finland found also a carbine 88 in 9x57 in an estate once, will ask him if he still have pics.


it was a good monetary option to the Mannslicher Schönauer Stutzen for 165 Mark



--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (03/06/17 06:51 PM)


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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301292 - 04/06/17 05:52 AM

Quote:



Haenel and Schilling were still making new actions and also complete carbines for export to china and south america up to 1914. the better quality hunting rifles I collect here in this thread were build on brand new carbine actions. the cheap quality hunting rifles are real sporter made from surplus military rifles. imho, there was no production of M 88 rifles in Suhl ever but only carbines.







Schilling never made actions. The military carbine actions where made by Haenel, also used by Schilling. (Storz, Deutsche Militärgewehre, Band 2 and other.)
I see no reason for two qualities of systems, but there where a lot of not accepted stuff
left from the german military carbine line.
The interesting point on this carbines from Schilling and Haenel is that they have not one military
acceptance stamp on any part. That doesnt fit with surplus military rifles.

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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: chapmen]
      #301293 - 04/06/17 05:56 AM



i see this in an other way.

7782 is an hunting carbine, made from surplus military carbines. This type should have acceptance marks, and correct date for ordnance made carbines.


7780 is an surplus rifle in original condition.
7781 is an surplus carbine in original condition.






--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (04/06/17 06:01 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: chapmen]
      #301320 - 04/06/17 05:10 PM

the years from 1888 to 1898 were called the "carbinetime" in Suhl

if Schilling got the actions from Haenel there was not so much left over for them to do because I think we agree that the action is the most important part when building a gun.
I see no reason why Schilling had engraved the actions then with the own name on this part when it came from haenel.
that was not common.






your carbine was made in 1906 when no carbine 88 were ever made anymore for german authorithies





the text to number 7781 stated "suchlike in use with the german cavalry"

why "suchlike" and not "original military carbines"? at least your carbine was produced in a time when production changed for the carbine 98 completly but Suhl was still making the carbine 88.

here a Haenel 1907 made carbine in 7x57 for south america







of course there was a use of not accepted parts or guns that were sold on the civilian market.

--------------------
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.
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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301324 - 04/06/17 07:41 PM

carbine sporter KAR "88" C G Haenel 1890 On Reciever, No Mag, SN 8889











http://www.icollector.com/Mauser-Model-88-Commision-Carbine-8MM_i10198528

"Haenel Sporter Model 88 Bolt Action Rifle, #10799, 8mm (.318), 21'' part-round barrel, matted and border engraved blue finish, ''C.G. Haenel, Suhl, Germany'' to top flat of barrel inlaid with platina, and fine Schnauble pistol-grip cheekpiece walnut stock. Bolt features striker peep sight. Condition is excellent as modified and retaining " http://www.icollector.com/Haenel-Sporter-Model-88-Bolt-Action-Rifle_i21575768












"C. G. Haenel classic early German sporting rifle on model 88 Mauser style action in 8x57 J caliber with 318 bore in very good to near fine original condition, serial number 57 on the right side of the action. The rifle shows a 24” octagon barrel with a 2 leaf folding rear sight and full Haenel signature on matted barrel. The magazine and action are case hardened and approximately 75% finish remains drifting to a silvery gray with some rainbow hues. The stock has been professionally refreshed and is in near excellent condition. The rifle is mounted with double set triggers and measures 43” overall. " http://www.icollector.com/C-G-Haenel-cla...ber-w_i19089089




















Edited by lancaster (04/06/17 07:52 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301328 - 04/06/17 08:11 PM

https://gundigest.com/reviews/early-german-bolt-action-sporters-set-standard


"Early German Bolt-Action Sporters Set a Standard

In the years before 1914 one could find, tucked away in a corner of the Sears, Roebuck catalog, a listing for a bolt-action sporting rifle from Germany. Variously listed as a Mannlicher, or a Haenel-Mannlicher, or sometimes just a C.G. Haenel (pronounced HY-nul), these rifles were the first steps in a trend that became a deluge: Bolt-action sporting rifles based on military actions.


Generally now known as Haenel-Mannlichers, these German bolt-action rifles were not cheap. In the 1902 Sears catalog, the price was $24.50. By comparison, a Winchester Model 95 listed at only $17.50. What made the German import worth 50 percent more than this state-of-the-art lever rifle? And why, when Model 95s are prized by collectors, are Haenel-Mannlichers all but forgotten except for a few devotees of early custom rifles?

There are two answers to that question, and relative quality has nothing to do with it. They are both finely made rifles, and some of the Haenels especially so.

For most gun collectors, the era of sporting bolt rifles began with the Mauser 98.

Everything good and modern occurred after that, they believe, and nothing much before. But such was not the case. In the frenzy of rifle development in Europe between the arrival of smokeless powder in 1886 and the ultimate Mauser in 1898, several good military bolt rifles made their debut. For sporting purposes, the most significant by far was the German Commission rifle of 1888.

For military collectors, the Gewehr ’88 is almost a cult object, and while it has been widely written about, it is also widely misunderstood. It is sometimes described as a Mauser with Mannlicher features, and sometimes the reverse. In reality, however, the Commission rifle was neither Mauser nor Mannlicher, but that rarest of creatures: A mechanical device designed by committee that was highly successful.

Its stint as the official infantry rifle of the German Army was short-lived – only 10 years – but it went on to a successful career in every corner of the globe as both military rifle and, in its converted form, a hunting rifle. So good was the Commission action that Steyr, in Austria, which manufactured the ’88 under contract for Berlin, modified it into a hunting rifle. The result was the famous Mannlicher-Schönauer Model 1903, a design that set the standard for quality hunting rifles for the next 70 years.

Steyr was not the only company to appreciate the virtues of the Commission rifle. C.G. Haenel, a prominent German gunmaking company in Suhl, also made Commission rifles under contract. Founded by Carl Gottlieb Haenel in 1840, C.G. Haenel & Co. quickly became a force in German gunmaking and, like most German firms, produced sporting weapons when it was not filling military contracts.

Haenel’s civilian rifles on the Commission action followed the German hunting rifle style that existed since the advent of centerfire cartridges. Most had half-octagon barrels with full or partial matted ribs, matted receiver ring, folding leaf sights, schnabel fore-ends and elegant turned-down bolt handles. There was usually a stock-bolt in the fore-end, and sometimes they were fitted with receiver sights. Most had double-set triggers. While the majority were chambered for the standard military 8×57 cartridge (usually the original .318” bullet, rather than the later .323”) they were also offered in pure hunting cartridges like the 9×57.

The first importer of Haenel-Mannlichers was Oscar Hesse of New Jersey, who began bringing them into the U.S. in 1894. There was a strong connection between German shooting clubs in the U.S., German immigrant gunmakers and the German companies, so more and more importers got into the act, and each, it seemed, stipulated little changes to the overall design. As a result, the number of minor variations seems endless.

This brings us back to the two major reasons there is only minor collector interest in these rifles. The first, of course, is the lack of a famous name such as Winchester. The second is the impossibility of classifying rifles by model and year. Model classification and certifiable originality are the backbone of gun collecting, and with Haenel-Mannlichers and other civilian rifles based on the Commission action, this is almost impossible. There were too many importers at this end, too many small gunmakers at the other end, and far too many variations in between.

For the modern rifle lover though, Haenels in their many guises offer an opportunity to own a rifle of stellar quality for not much money. The materials, workmanship and finishing are comparable to fine, modern, custom rifles. On the negative side, they are chambered for cartridges like the 8×57 and 9×57 that by today’s standards are relatively low velocity and suitable only for short-range hunting.

Collecting Haenel-Mannlichers may never make you any money, but it can lead into exploration of a fascinating byway in the history of the sporting rifle. You will find early Mannlichers from Steyr as well as German and Austrian custom makers, and you will find custom-ordered takedown rifles and modified Gewehr ’88s.

There was life before the Mauser 98 and the evidence lies — as with so much of American life — in the pages of the old Sear's



The conversion to a Mauser-style box magazine with hinged floorplate is one of the most beautifully executed floorplate-release mechanisms ever made – far superior to almost any modern rifle, including some ultra-high-dollar custom rifles. It is crisp, positive and unfailing. This rifle also has an excellent double-set trigger.






Haenel-Mannlicher, circa 1909, fitted with a Lyman Model 36 receiver sight and Lawrence sling. The sight appears to have been fitted at the factory, but it is impossible to say for certain.

"

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301329 - 04/06/17 08:25 PM

the text on 7781 says :
"blameless conserved" and " good reworked "- so this are surplus rifles, why should be new made rifles reworked?



--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (04/06/17 08:25 PM)


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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301330 - 04/06/17 08:40 PM

Quote:

the years from 1888 to 1898 were called the "carbinetime" in Suhl

if Schilling got the actions from Haenel there was not so much left over for them to do because I think we agree that the action is the most important part when building a gun.
I see no reason why Schilling had engraved the actions then with the own name on this part when it came from haenel.
that was not common.







Very small of this time is for shure.
Haenel and Schilling produces the 88 carbines for the german military.
1888 Schilling and Haenel get an contract for 200.000 carbines to made.
This 200.000 are the reason for the so called "carbinetime".
Schilling used actions made by Haenel and as usual they stamped it with Schilling.
Also other parts was made from the different suhl firms.

source: Storz, Band 2, Deutsche Militärgewehre.

also it is possible that Haenel made new actions around 1905, they had the machines.
So why should it be impossible that Schilling bought actions from Haenel?
That was usual for every kind of guns in Suhl.
They are not engraved, the "V.C.S. Suhl 1906" is rolled on. For this you need an special machine.
Remember, military made carbines was not signed with "V.C.S. Suhl and date" - they was signed with "V.C. Schilling Suhl and date"


--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de

Edited by chapmen (04/06/17 09:00 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: chapmen]
      #301331 - 04/06/17 08:53 PM

Quote:

the text on 7781 says :
"blameless conserved" and " good reworked "- so this are surplus rifles, why should be new made rifles reworked?






for sale ad? could be also made from parts or complete rifles that did not pass the final quality control, production overrun. just to show the customer it was the best quality he got there when it was in fact NOT.
anyway, your 1906 made carbine was not a surplus rifle.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: chapmen]
      #301332 - 04/06/17 09:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

the years from 1888 to 1898 were called the "carbinetime" in Suhl

if Schilling got the actions from Haenel there was not so much left over for them to do because I think we agree that the action is the most important part when building a gun.
I see no reason why Schilling had engraved the actions then with the own name on this part when it came from haenel.
that was not common.







Very small of this time is for shure.
Haenel and Schilling produces the 88 carbines for the german military.
1888 Schilling and Haenel get an contract for 200.000 carbines to made.
This 200.000 are the reason for the so called "carbinetime".
Schilling used actions made by Haenel and as usual they stamped it with Schilling.
Also other parts was made from the different suhl firms.

source: Storz, Band 2, Deutsche Militärgewehre.

also it is possible that Haenel made new actions around 1905, they had the machines.
So why should it be impossible that Schilling bought actions from Haenel?
That was usual for every kind of guns in Suhl.
They are not engraved, the "V.C.S. Suhl 1906" is rolled on. For this you nedd an special machine.
Remember, military made carbines was not signed with "V.C.S. Suhl and date" - they was signed with "V.C. Schilling Suhl and date"





thats looking different for me

we know that Schilling, Haenel and Spangenber&Sauer were forming the Suhl Consortium since the 1860s for handle military orders in labour division. so the statement that Schilling never made actions is not true or we say it precise that Haenel was making receiver but never making the bolts. so we see that Haenel and Schilling working hand in hand together with smaller firms and both name the carbines they were assemble in the end with the own name. after the end of the carbinetime and the end of the suhl consortium I sure that Haenel and Schlling were able to make complete actions alone.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301334 - 04/06/17 09:10 PM

Quote:





say it precise that Haenel was making receiver but never making the bolts. so we see that Haenel and Schilling working hand in hand together with smaller firms and both name the carbines they were assemble in the end with the own name.







i fully agree with this. This is also the sight from documents.

--------------------
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www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301336 - 04/06/17 09:16 PM

Quote:


after the end of the carbinetime and the end of the suhl consortium I sure that Haenel and Schlling were able to make complete actions alone.





Because of the special machines that needed for making receivers i dont think that Schilling was able to made them.
If they had the machines before they could made receivers for the contract also. There would be no reason to split.

But, who knows what happend in this time for shure.
There are several possibilities and only very few archive documents.........

--------------------
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www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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Bokmal
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #301337 - 04/06/17 09:17 PM

Quote:


a friend in Finland found also a carbine 88 in 9x57 in an estate once, will ask him if he still have pics.




I'm sorry for the potato quality pics. They were taken with a mobile phone 8 years ago in a garage.







--------------------
Born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world is mad...


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chapmen
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: Bokmal]
      #301338 - 04/06/17 09:34 PM

interesting!!!

--------------------
some fine old guns from germany :
www.jagdwaffensammler.de


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: chapmen]
      #301339 - 04/06/17 09:44 PM

was in 9x57 too, iirc

this could be also a pre war 1 surplus rifle going over the liege gun trade. looks like it was rebored in Liege to 9mm.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #302447 - 28/06/17 04:39 AM

another carbine hunting rifle, 8x57I SN 5817
broken stock http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6517486#img









--------------------
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.
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Sarg
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #302456 - 28/06/17 06:58 AM

Love those Carbines, be on that in a flash if here !

Thank you for posting these Lancaster !!


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: Sarg]
      #305034 - 09/09/17 03:27 PM

nameless Haenel or Schilling maybe rechambered to 8x60I in the 1920s
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=54762

" 7,5x60; 90% blue, very good bore, very good stock, 24'' barrel, Receiver ring is marked with 2.67 g G.B.P. over St. m. G.. Barrel, on top at receiver ring with KRUPP STAHL. Checkered pistol grip showing a little wear. Antique., s/n 261xx "

we will see http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=305032&Main=304972#Post305032













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #306249 - 12/10/17 01:24 AM

7x57, SN 3730
Hensoldt Diatal 4 X 32, Abs. 4, on claw mount
https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/jagd...p;currentpos=76




8x57IS(? its a 8x57I) by Eduard Kettner, SN 103
https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/pirs...p;currentpos=77



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #308344 - 27/11/17 05:44 AM

"V. CHR. SCHILLING (SUHL)
AN 8X57J 'MANNLICHER MOD. 88' BOLT-MAGAZINE SPORTING RIFLE, serial no. 22872,
23 1/8in. nitro reproved (in 2017) octagonal Krupp-steel barrel with matt top flat, open sights (missing leaf sight) and ramp-mounted bead fore-sight, finely matted receiver ring, florally engraved recoil blocks, double set triggers, bold floral engraving, retaining some original colour-hardening, semi-pistolgrip stock with cheekpiece, sling swivels, 14in. pull including steel buttplate, weight 7lb. 2oz. "

http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...9&saletype=









another 8x57I , looks like a Gewehr 88 sporter wit the original 72 cmm long barrel, maybe made by one of the smaller gunmaker in Suhl by using a surplus rifle

http://www.naturabuy.fr/M88-Repetier-Pir...em-3441400.html






















anyway, not the common Haenel/Schilling rifle

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #312614 - 19/02/18 04:08 AM

7x57 by an unknown maker, SN 137183
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6822774

















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Sarg
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: lancaster]
      #312640 - 19/02/18 07:12 AM

Very nice & liking the scope mount, would fit on one of my Steyr 93-95 ?

Why is it so high do you think, for the stripper clips ?


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lancaster
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Re: another M 88 sporter for the archive [Re: Sarg]
      #312685 - 19/02/18 03:16 PM

yes, its very high and it could be the clip fits under der scope this way

the three feet claw mount is the same for the M 88, the Mannlicher 92, 93 and 95 and for the Mannlicher Schönauer because the receiver is the same outside

--------------------
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.
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