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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Paradox guns from Fabarm
      #30820 - 10/05/05 01:04 PM

I must thank MacNaughton for giving me this link. Yes, it's not a Holland and Holland, but it is something that everyone here could afford if they wanted one. Fabarm have a Paradox rifled boxlock gun in their line up for someone who might be interested. No idea whether H&K sell it in the US, though.

http://tinyurl.com/9czzf

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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tunofun
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Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #30837 - 10/05/05 08:56 PM

Does anyone know if these are 'real' paradox guns or just smoothbores with rifle sights etc?

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: tunofun]
      #30842 - 10/05/05 10:11 PM

I believe they are actually 12-bore cape-guns, ie one barrel smooth, one barrel fully rifled. At least, that was the case when they were advertised in the 'comic book' (Shooters Journal) several years ago. I thought they had stopped making them, but perhaps they simply stopped importing them into Oz.

Blatant disregard for the historical facts of Fosbery's patent, and they had the hide to register 'paradox' as their own trade-mark! BOOOOO!

If I'm wrong, and they have actually decided to start making proper rifled-choke SxS doubles, I too would be VERY interested in getting my hands on one!

As an aside, several years ago I tried to get Verney Carron to make me up a 'shotgun' with two fully rifled barrels, and sell it to me with the ribs off so I could regulate it, but they pleaded ignorance and there was no agent in Australia at the time. This could be worth trying with Fabarm. Anyone here drink with the agent or importer?

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Oldsarge
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Reged: 07/02/05
Posts: 180
Loc: SoCal Borderlands
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #30867 - 11/05/05 09:08 AM

Anyone who lives in California where pig are open all year 'round and quail season lasts 4 months should seriously think of such a thing. Mehul, could you contact MacNaughton and find out what the price might be? In the US, anyone with a FFL can import and "occasional" piece without an importer's license. 'Tis a bit clunky lookin' but if the price was right . . .

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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MacNaughton
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Reged: 11/02/05
Posts: 55
Loc: Somerset. U.K.
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: Oldsarge]
      #30876 - 11/05/05 12:48 PM

Fabarms `Paradox` guns have only the `choke` area of the barrel rifled. The story is pretty strange as only the `first` ( the right ) barrel has the `Paradox` rifling. The second barrel has conventional fixed or removable chokes.
Fabarm were marketing the system as offering a very wide, very even shot pattern from the rifled, cylinder choke ........ but the only barrel length offered is 24" which is very short for a sporting shotgun and suggests they intended it for use with slugs whilst retaining a useable - and sensible - shot pattern. Personally I reckon that a set of long removable chokes that included a pair of `Paradox` rifled `chokes` would be more practical, versatile and sensible.
I`m making enquiries about the prices of the Fabarm range generally so will report back when I have the information - don`t hold your breath though.
Incidentally, Fabarm guarantee that their new `Asper` O/U rifle will achieve a `maximum of 5cm ( 2" ) between the points of impact at a distance of 100m ( 109.36 yards ) ( with the suggested ammunition. )` That`s pretty impressive - a shame the rifle is only available in .30Blaser/8x55JRS/9.3x74R.

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`

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tunofun
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Reged: 10/11/04
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Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: MacNaughton]
      #30877 - 11/05/05 01:10 PM

The fabarm website advertises rifled chokes but I do not know if they will fit this gun. Would be very, very interesting if they did!

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: tunofun]
      #30904 - 11/05/05 10:43 PM

I have a pair of Remington rifled chokes, but try finding a Remington SxS shotgun threaded for Remchokes in Australia!!

MacNaughton:
That's interesting about the fixed rifled choke in one barrel of the Fabarm, they were definitely fully-rifled in one barrel when they first tried this years ago, in the early days of 12-bore sabots. Looks like they've changed their tune.

Do you reckon we could get them to make up a couple with fixed paradox chokes in both barrels? You're right about the barrel-length though, 24-inches is certainly not 'pukka' for a paradox!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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MacNaughton
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Reged: 11/02/05
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: Marrakai]
      #30916 - 12/05/05 02:53 AM

Marrakai. I`m in correspondence with Fabarm about another matter and will enquire about them producing a `proper` `Paradox` gun - your suggestion makes sense to me !

--------------------
Nothing compares to a `Best Gun.`

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Oldsarge
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Reged: 07/02/05
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: MacNaughton]
      #30932 - 12/05/05 09:46 AM

The experience in the shotgun-only deer hunting areas of the US seems to be that rifled chokes don't stablilize rifled slugs well enough. That's why the majority of deer/bear slug guns have rifling the entire length of the barrel. I thought of getting a rifled choke for my O/U for those cases when while bird hunting a pig shows up but was told at a S.H.O.T. Show that it simply wasn't a good idea . . . and this was by a manufacturer of chokes! Unfortunately, I can't remember which one. My guess is that if you had a shotgun whose barrels were tapered and regulated to cross at 70 yards instead of 20, you wouldn't need to worry about rifling in any case. Just put a pair of Brenneke's up the spout and let fly. Whether this would really be possible might make for some interesting (and rather costly) experimentation.

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: Oldsarge]
      #30940 - 12/05/05 12:40 PM

Paradoxs, Exploras, Fauntettas etc. were renowned for their accuracy. I think that modern bullets and low velocity are responsible for rumours of poor performance.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3652
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: Oldsarge]
      #30941 - 12/05/05 12:48 PM

The problem with rifled slugs is that they are specifically designed to not spin, and spinning them can indeed reduce accuracy in most types. The modern re-birth of the rifled choke is for sabots of course.

I personally prefer solid lead Fosbery-style projectiles, cast from a CBE mold or similar.




Pity the modern equivalents like the Dixie 'Terminator' are so hard to get hold of down here. Love to give them a try too.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: Oldsarge]
      #30946 - 12/05/05 02:50 PM

Oldsarge,

I have hunted pigs for many years with what is sold in India as "LG" the old ball loading for large game in shotguns. Though I used a Stevens 12 bore smoothbore with more than good results, I know people who have used old Explora/Paradox rifled guns with considerable success and at longer than the 30metre max ranges I have used my gun. I have never heard of poor accuracy but if you shoot at longer distances, there might be problems beyond 70 metres, I think.

As a matter of fact the Explora/Paradox guns have accounted for ALL of India's game in the past and that shows the confidence that old hunters had in them. I am sure that this is a concept worth reviving and if Fabarm offered a proper Paradox gun, I would certainly buy one. To make things easier for us, I sent them a fax with a link to this discussion in a nudge, nudge, wink, wink sense - they do not have a mail for overseas enquiries for some reason. I hope that would help Mac NAughton convince them more easily.

Good hunting, and let's wait to hear from Mac Naughton.

I just wanted to add that the US made Paradox type rifled shotguns for the Indian market in the pre war years and I have seen a few Harrington and Richardsons with outside hammers and single (heavier than the smoothbores) barrels with the shallow rifling in India. My friend Louis Aruliah has one in Madras and I wonder if any of these were sold in the USA in the old days?

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Edited by mehulkamdar (12/05/05 02:54 PM)

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tunofun
.300 member


Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 120
Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #30958 - 12/05/05 11:59 PM

Some bad news for us Aussies, I emailed Fisher firearms and this is what they had to say...

i have had a word with the fabarm importer and they have advised me that
they are not bringing this firearm in to the country so will be unable to
help you.

Maybe there is some other way??

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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Oldsarge
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Reged: 07/02/05
Posts: 180
Loc: SoCal Borderlands
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #30998 - 13/05/05 11:31 AM

If anybody were to offer a proper Paradox gun for under . . . $2,000(?) I'd race you to it! It's an idea whose time should never have gone away and should come back ASAP. Especially for those who live in pig-infested areas where game birds are to be found, where deer and quail or bear and quail seasons overlap, for ptarmigan hunters in the Far North or anywhere you have the chance at both big game and feathers, the Paradox system is just THE BEST. I admit I admire a good drilling and I admit that it would be equally practical and a lot easier to find but . . . well, th'Paradox 's just more sportin', don'tcherknow.

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3652
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: Oldsarge]
      #31003 - 13/05/05 01:19 PM

Both tunofun and I would benefit from a unique situation here in Australia's Northern Territory, whereby the government hunting reserves are closed to centre-fire rifles during the water-fowl season. Unfortunately, this means most of our 'dry' season, which is the best time for pig-hunting on the reserves.

The four-month goose-season is designated 'shotguns only', though solids and SG are permitted for pigs. Fortunately, we have been able to convince Parks & Wildlife that a rifled-choke gun is still a shotgun, as it has little range advantage over a smooth-bore slug, and is potentially safer due to improved accuracy.

A Paradox gun therefore has the advantage of being loaded for goose, duck, or boar, with a reasonable expectation of being able to handle a buffalo should the need arise. Its the perfect firearm for a dry-season day-out on the Harrison Dam Hunting Reserve!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
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Loc: Western Australia
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #31034 - 13/05/05 09:26 PM

I contacted the Australian agent for Fabarm who inturn got intouch with the WA agent.
One so called paradox was available 2-3 months ago however when I asked the question about rifleing in both barrels I was informed that one barrel was choked and the other had some rifleing.
Needless to say I passed on it.
The claim was that only one was available in Australia.
The Aussie agents are in Dandenong in Victoria.
Al


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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tunofun
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Reged: 10/11/04
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Loc: Darwin, NT, Australia
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #31049 - 14/05/05 12:02 AM

I wonder if rifled chokes can be used in the other barrel?

Also, you would think that all manufacturers would make their SxS shotguns with removable chokes wouldn't you? Why only U/O's? Seems strange...

--------------------

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
Sigmund Freud -- General Introduction to Psychoanalysis

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doublegunfan
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Reged: 26/04/05
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Loc: Brazil
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #31062 - 14/05/05 02:26 AM

I have used a lot of different types of slugs in a smoothbore, 24" barreled double gun. I have good results to 40-50 metres. In my opinion, the matter of having rifled chokes seems to be a better idea than a fully-rifled barrel, as the gun would still be usefull for a variety of conditions.
Where I live, people shoot game up to water buffalo with Brennekes with great success, although I have not done that myself. Hunters also like to load a slug in one barrel and buckshot in the other, sort of a poor man's cape gun. So I think that was what Fabarm had in mind when they designed their gun with a fixed rifled choke in one side and interchangeable chokes in the other.

Fred

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: doublegunfan]
      #31115 - 14/05/05 01:01 PM

doublegunfan,

For many years in India the Paradox guns were used for hunting everything from tigers down to some of the smaller deer and, of course, birds. I agree with you that they are superb - I have used a smoothbore shotgun to shoot a number of pigs with LG ball and am certain that a Paradox/Explora/Fauneta would have been much better for this purpose.

I wish Fabarm bring out a proper rifled choke gun and sell it in the USA for under $ 2000 like Oldsarge suggests. There are several shotgun only for deer states in the USA and the guns would work beautifully at the short ranges at which hundreds of thousands of deer are shot every year especially in Wisconsin, Illinois etc.
As a matter of fact, if Fabarm don't want to bring these out despite my inviting them to visit this thread in a fax that I sent them and MacNaughton's almost continuous communication with them, I hope someone else would bring these out and start selling them. The number of hits on this thread does show that there is substantial interest in this fantastic old idea.

Good hunting!


--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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doublegunfan
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Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #31674 - 21/05/05 09:59 PM

Mehulkamdar,

What about the Sabatti slugster gun? It is designed to be used for boar, but I think it can actually take care of much larger game. Also, I think they might be interested in adding rifled chokes (currently the gun is sold with cyl/imp-cyl fixed chokes).
Wouldn't it be a great gun to carry afield?

Fred

http://www.sabatti.it/ita/framesetgiustapposti.htm

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: doublegunfan]
      #31729 - 22/05/05 02:05 PM

Doublegunfan,

Are the Sabattis available in the US? They seem very nice.

Thanks for the link.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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doublegunfan
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Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 60
Loc: Brazil
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #31734 - 22/05/05 08:33 PM

There is this one at Gunsamerica. Check it out.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976425505.htm

Fred

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NE450No2
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: doublegunfan]
      #31736 - 22/05/05 09:10 PM

Chapuis makes a SxS 12 ga. that has rifle sights and is regulated for Brenneke slugs at 50 yards. It is a smooth bore. It also has the cut outs on the rib for a scope mount.
Chapuis also makes a Cape Gun.
I think Eurogun in Houston TX carries the Sabati SGN

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Oldsarge
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Reged: 07/02/05
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Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: doublegunfan]
      #31744 - 23/05/05 01:39 AM

SxS slug guns seem to be relatively popular in Italy. I know that several makers list them, Bernadelli is another. My suspician is that since they are not rifles, the permits for them are easier to come by and given the popularity of driven boar shoots all over Europe, they are very effective.

But even given the above . . . they ain't Paradox guns! The old Paradox system was good out to 100 yards or more and still threw good patterns of shot. Their barrels were long enough to balance well in the hands for wingshooting, something that stubby 24" slug barrels simply are not. We're back to either one game or another instead of being ready for everything. At this point, a drilling is more available and makes more sense, unfortunately.

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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vigillinus
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Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
Re: Paradox guns from Fabarm [Re: Oldsarge]
      #31750 - 23/05/05 03:42 AM

Maybe ten years back I had a Zoli (don't remember which Zoli) double 12 24" barrels open sight on the barrel cylinder bores. Shot one kind of U.S. rifled slug (forget which) into 3" at 50 yards but was all over the lot with everything else including Brennekes.

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