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bwanabloke
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Reged: 24/03/05
Posts: 27
why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ???
      #30657 - 06/05/05 11:10 PM

Ray says Chapuis are ''junky '' but from the photos and on websites they look very well made !!Champlins back them 100% if anyone should know its Champlins ,seems the more you read the less you know what to believe !

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500Nitro
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: bwanabloke]
      #30661 - 07/05/05 12:45 AM

bwanabloke

Subject: Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ???

I'll respond from the perspective of having discussed DR's an guns in general
for 4 years or so on this and other forums with Ray + spoken with him on the phone a few times.

1. As I have just posted on the other post, everyone has a different opinion on Double Rifles,
some you agree with, some you don't. The difference is that we have those on the forums who
sprout off when they don't know / own these guns (TROLLS ?) and those that do know, do or have owned
or at least EXPERIENCED them.

Ray falls into the latter, so I value his opinion for this reason. He is also listened to by other
companies in this field.

I also think they are a bit "junky" but since I have only handled 2, maybe 3 and only shot one,
I don't pass Strong comment. Same as Searcy, Frieghoff etc, only handled 2, maybe 3 so keep
out of the discussion.

Ray can also compare against the heaps of other guns he has owned, shot, carried, seen used
in the field etc etc plus he is reasonably technically competent from what I have seen.

Re Champlins backing them 100%, I would back them 100% if I was selling them.

I back the products I sell 100% and I would back Chapuis if I was in the business of selling Chapuis's.

Finally, (this is my opinion), if a Purdey underbolt system, Single Lump, Chopper Lump or Dovetail barrels
were good enough for guns since the year dot, then why does Chapuis have a different system.

I think it is called Marketing differentiation.

Anyway, just my HO, some may agree, some may not.

500 Nitro


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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30664 - 07/05/05 12:56 AM

I cannot read Ray's mind, but I can offer my thoughts.

The rifles are of a good, and interesting design. They look nice, or as JB would say they have "sex appeal". Buying through Champlains gets you a life time warrenty.

However, they do have some quality control issues. Some parts of my rifle were not finished properly, and I have heard similar complaints from several other hunters in France. Their customer service in France really sucks (you only get a three year warrenty in France actually), and they are rather rude to deal with if you have problems.

The difficulty with Chapuis in my opinion is not the design, but at times the execution. They need to work on their customer service and their quality control.

Having said this, I really like my rifle, and in general I do like Chapuis.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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500Nitro
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: Chasseur]
      #30666 - 07/05/05 01:01 AM


Chasseur,

I must admit that the light "feel" of the guns is quite nice and yes, I think
JB is correct (whoever he is), they do have "sex appeal".

I think the "finish" of all guns in general is the same now - not as well done
as in the past.

500 Nitro


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Chasseur
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30667 - 07/05/05 01:03 AM

In reply to:

I think the "finish" of all guns in general is the same now - not as well done
as in the past.





Agreed and well said! I think this everytime I compare my Chapuis to my 1960s French guild gun. The time and quality of an older double gun really puts many of the modern ones to shame.

I do like their style and finish better than most of their competitors: Merkel, Kreifhoff and Blaser.

PS: JB is Jean-Bernard the French guy who posts here and on AR.


--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (07/05/05 01:05 AM)


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JeffWemmer470
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Reged: 03/05/05
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: Chasseur]
      #30670 - 07/05/05 02:32 AM

Here's a thought.

I'll be that Ray has handeled and hunted a greater # and variety of rifles than most of us.

That withstanding, there must be a legitimate reason as to his dislike of these rifles.

Me however, a different reason.

When compared to a Searcy for example there are some hugely obvious mathematical reasons as to why the Searcy is superior:

Dealer margins - Butch has no strutcured dealer network - he's pretty much diret to customer. "Cha-ching"
Labor rates - Chaupis rifles are made in Europe - the world's worst business environment - super high labor and tax rates! "Cha-cha-ching"
Exchange rates: The dollar is sucking wind to the Euro - almost a 30% penalty to buy European goods nowadays, plus import duties. "Cha-cha-cha-ching!"

So, you end-up spending 10K on one of either of these rifles; Searcy, Chaupis - Which do you think is going to be the better value and overall better rifle!

I'll answer that for you - SEARCY!!!

That I'm sure is part of Ray's problem with Chaupis - you are essentially paying 10K for a 6-7K dollar rifle.

That's the math aspect of it!

And that's why for now I won't even consider an expensive European weapon of any kind - you're going to take a 30% hit!

Hey World - This is the best time ever to buy American - It's a steal!


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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: JeffWemmer470]
      #30671 - 07/05/05 02:41 AM


JeffWemmer470

Good point - you do get more for your money.

"The legitimate reason as to his dislike of these rifles is that
Ray has handeled and hunted a greater # and variety of rifles than most of us"
and is therefore MORE QUALIFIED to make an educated opinion
that most of us.

At least he's not a TROLL who comments or passes judgement on forums
with NO experience !!! (I must admit the forums have been very devoid of TROLLS
for a while which is good).

500 Nitro


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new_guy
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: bwanabloke]
      #30676 - 07/05/05 04:38 AM

In reply to:

Ray says Chapuis are ''junky '' but from the photos and on websites they look very well made !!Champlins back them 100% if anyone should know its Champlins ,seems the more you read the less you know what to believe !




There are no doubt some respected opinions on these forums from experienced shooters.

But - seriously - ask yourself... does any one of them know more than George and/or JJ about double rifles? Champlin's claim is to have handled, worked on and sold more DRs than any dealer on the planet. Based on their tenure and inventory, I'm lead to believe that statement.

JJ is certainly no DR dummy either. (It's not as if he took night courses at a local community college.) If there's an Ivy League of gun schools Leige is definitely in that list. Anyone here that argues with that simply doesn't know any better.

Just because one states an opinion repeatedly on these boards, why would you be led to give that opinion (with comparatively less experience) the more credibility of the two?

C'mon, guys... Think! Or as my dad used to say, "use your head for something besides a hat rack!"

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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bonanza
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: new_guy]
      #30678 - 07/05/05 05:45 AM

I'm not going to get into the old-gun new-gun argument. But my chapuis has exellent, if not perfect fit and finish. The wood is as nice as a purdy and the checkering is flawless. The action is uniqe, but when closed you can't tell the difference. The rifle is very stout and should last a very long time. I'd buy another in a heart-beat.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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luv2safari
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: bonanza]
      #30679 - 07/05/05 06:19 AM

I bought a Chapuis in 1999 in 9,3X74r. It was sent back the day it arrived for a refund. The checkering looked like it was done by a drunk Mexican with a machete. The fit and finish were terrible. I might not be Merkel's biggest fan, but the Merkels had it all over the French junk I received.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: new_guy]
      #30687 - 07/05/05 07:27 AM


new_guy,

Nothing wrong with what you say about Champlins, JJ, Liege etc. Don't have a problem with that.

The question was why why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ???

I was just adding some thoughts on Ray.

The same situation and very strong opinions (like, don't like) applies to Searcy, Merkel, Krieghoff et all

With your statement "Just because one states an opinion repeatedly on these boards,
why would you be led to give that opinion (with comparatively less experience)
the more credibility of the two?"

I don't necessarily give more cred to Ray - it's just I do value Ray's opinion but if Ray or anyone
posted something I thought was incorrect, (and knew it factually, not through heresay)
then I would post aginst the line of argument, regardless of who had written it.

The 2 posts after yours and above mine are at he opposite end of the Spectrum so we have
2 owners differing.

I think like every gun maker, the Accountants get hold of the company and things change.
AYA was a good example - first years of gunmaking were excellent and everyone knows it,
the rest lost quality.


500 Nitro





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new_guy
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30692 - 07/05/05 07:51 AM

In reply to:

new_guy,

Nothing wrong with what you say about Champlins, JJ, Liege etc. Don't have a problem with that.

The question was why why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ???

I was just adding some thoughts on Ray.

The same situation and very strong opinions (like, don't like) applies to Searcy, Merkel, Krieghoff et all

With your statement "Just because one states an opinion repeatedly on these boards,
why would you be led to give that opinion (with comparatively less experience)
the more credibility of the two?"

I don't necessarily give more cred to Ray - it's just I do value Ray's opinion but if Ray or anyone
posted something I thought was incorrect, (and knew it factually, not through heresay)
then I would post aginst the line of argument, regardless of who had written it.

The 2 posts after yours and above mine are at he opposite end of the Spectrum so we have
2 owners differing.

I think like every gun maker, the Accountants get hold of the company and things change.
AYA was a good example - first years of gunmaking were excellent and everyone knows it,
the rest lost quality.




I follow your logic. But am afraid that I can't tell you why any one individual feels a certain way about something.

Rather than discuss/challenge an individual's opinion directly (and in effect, "call that individual out" on previous statements), I hoped to challenge us to consider the facts, use some logical deduction and make up our own minds.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: new_guy]
      #30693 - 07/05/05 08:46 AM


new_guy

I must admit I can't wait for Ray to post on this subject.

"But am afraid that I can't tell you why any one individual feels
a certain way about something."

I agree - it's like why do I like Holland & Holland Rifles and Shotguns
over other - fit to me, feel, finish, engraving, aura, style, design etc
- I can't put a finger on it, I just prefer them to Purdey etc etc.
(I am not a great fan of Purdey actions or ngraving,
preferrig the Holland action and how it feels to use and engraving).

"I hoped to challenge us to consider the facts, use some logical
deduction and make up our own minds."

No probelm with this. I ike thinking outside of the square !!!

Now lets wait for Ray to post his reasons !!

500 Nitro



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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2437
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30710 - 08/05/05 12:42 AM

I wonder, not being a double gunner, could this be like the running argument here in the U.S. about who makes a better truck...Ford or Chevy? Fans of each can tell you what's wrong the other...

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: DoubleD]
      #30712 - 08/05/05 01:06 AM

In reply to:

Poster: DoubleD
Subject: Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ???

I wonder, not being a double gunner, could this be like the running argument here in the U.S. about who makes a better truck...Ford or Chevy? Fans of each can tell you what's wrong the other...





No. it is much more serious than that.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: mickey]
      #30722 - 08/05/05 05:42 AM

In reply to:

But - seriously - ask yourself... does any one of them know more than George and/or JJ about double rifles?




They are selling something, so their evaluation is not objective.

Some folks say the Chapuis are built too light (and the Merkels too). Not being a firearms engineer, I cannot offer proof one way or the other.


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larcher
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: 500grains]
      #30805 - 10/05/05 02:24 AM

Hi, my name is JB.

Be sure I support Chapuis, no doubt.
Don’t forget Chapuis is making different kinds of guns. There are Manurhin revolvers, Challenger rifles.......... and doubles. Among doubles there is shotguns o/u and s/s, there is medium doubles o/u and s/s and there is African doubles s/s.
Then there is basic, but sturdy, guns and taylormade (or handmade) beauts. Concerning doubles from 5K to 10K or even over, it depends on how many hours are spent assembling and decorating the double. Same thing with Winchester and their custom shop
There are production lines for o/u and for s/s. There are different production lines for shotguns and doubles. There are different production lines for doubles and African doubles.
Since about 1995, all are CNC machined.
What is making a real sturdy double is the boxlock and the hooks and lugs.
Now, I am asking You, who are the makers every day capable of making Double Express CNC boxlocks hooks and lugs on special and constant own production lines?
I won’t be rude with other makers. There are many makers who can offer nice African double express. But how many of these doubles can withstand years after years of abuse? Thierry Chapuis told me that most of the African doubles can fit the odd African hunter who’ll fire 200 or 500 rounds in his big gun.
When it comes to use the double as a tool......... everyday, don’t count on most of the makers. Period.

In my opinion, I think English and Belgian doubles are faultless.
Blaser and Krieghoff are the least sexy (they might be the ugliest too).
I don’t know anything about Searcy, but JudgeG endorses Searcy.
For your money, I think Heym and Chapuis are the beauts of the pack and best choices. I know many PHs using them and ....content. Try how balanced they are.
I regreet Heym is not selling more doubles.
Merkel seems to be good, but as we say in France, they are “barre à mine”, mining bars. Why are they so heavy. Me think progresses have been done concerning steel quality.

Quote l4v2safari : “I bought a Chapuis in 1999 in 9,3X74r. It was sent back the day it arrived for a refund. The checkering looked like it was done by a drunk Mexican with a machete. The fit and finish were terrible. I might not be Merkel's biggest fan, but the Merkels had it all over the French junk I received”
Chapuis has to be sensible about pricing but is in no habit of offering junk. What change between the basic doubles and the handmade ones is the finishing. Anyhow the chekering is a safety element and no money has to be saved in botching a chekering( which costs nothing when industrially realised). I think the wood was no genuine Chapuis. May be the double was beforehand used as a crowbar, but a Chapuis is no Merkel.
It’s only my humble opinion.



It remains that Ray desserves highest respect and I don’t contest his vast competence.


--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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mickey
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: larcher]
      #30808 - 10/05/05 04:51 AM

I have never used a Chapuis but I have always wondered if the hooks interfere with quick reloading?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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new_guy
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: mickey]
      #30809 - 10/05/05 06:06 AM

In reply to:

I have never used a Chapuis but I have always wondered if the hooks interfere with quick reloading?




No, they are in the same place other barrel lumps, and have no more effect on loading than a normal chopper-lump barrel, which is to say none. There just happens to be two of them instead of one.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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Chasseur
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: new_guy]
      #30814 - 10/05/05 10:09 AM

In reply to:

I have never used a Chapuis but I have always wondered if the hooks interfere with quick reloading?






Nope.


--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (10/05/05 10:11 AM)


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KWK
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: bwanabloke]
      #30818 - 10/05/05 12:01 PM

I assume we're talking about Ray Atkinson. I couldn't find any reference to "junky" on these forums, so I looked over on Accurate Reloading. There, he doesn't claim to have much experience with this maker's guns; he clearly stated he was just passing on the comments of a few others; and he didn't claim those views were authoritative.


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new_guy
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: KWK]
      #30846 - 10/05/05 11:31 PM

In reply to:

I assume we're talking about Ray Atkinson. I couldn't find any reference to "junky" on these forums, so I looked over on Accurate Reloading. There, he doesn't claim to have much experience with this maker's guns; he clearly stated he was just passing on the comments of a few others; and he didn't claim those views were authoritative.





"As to the Chapius doubles, IMO they are without a doubt the biggest piece of junk I have ever seen in a double rifle, and I have owned a lot of double rifles in my day, both English, German, and domestic..."

Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 ward Lane
Filer, Idaho, 83328 USA
208-326-4120


nitro express thread source

--------------------
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DUGABOY1
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: new_guy]
      #30868 - 11/05/05 09:12 AM

In reply to:

"As to the Chapius doubles, IMO they are without a doubt the biggest piece of junk I have ever seen in a double rifle, and I have owned a lot of double rifles in my day, both English, German, and domestic..."

Ray Atkinson





I don't like the Chapuis as well as some others in the same price range, but I don't think I'd go as far as Ray in discribing them! I do know several people who own Chapuis rifles, and only one has had a problem with his. That problem was deemed to be his own fault, by useing
un-pressure-ringed Monolithic solids in it, breaking the solder between the barrels and ribs. It seems Chapuis fixed it, then it happened again, and when they found out he was useing the monos in it they told him if he used them again, he was on his own!

The things I don't like about them are they are made too light for caliber to suit me. The barrels are short, and very thin, and I don't like a beavertailed forend wood, even on a shotgun. Those things are personal likes, and dislikes, nothing more!

I have a friend who has a Chapuis 9.3X74R, that is as accurate as any hunting rifle out to 250 yds, regardless of type, or make.

Would I buy one? NO! Because I can buy a new Merkel, or a good used Britt, a fitted B. Searcy,or other used German double, that is just as good,or better, for considerably less money, and keep my money out of France. Just my $0.02

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: bwanabloke]
      #30869 - 11/05/05 10:34 AM

I hear of a great number of Chapuis owners who very much like their double rifles. Also from what I gather these guys often seem to be the biggest actual shooters ie users, of their double rifles in the field as well. Just an impression I have received over time.

I haven't used one so my comments are very much just hearsay comments. The one thing I don't like about them is the oversized beavertail forend. When one day I go looking for a good modern side by side double rifle in 9.3mm able to be fitted with scope mounts, Chapuis is probably the first I will look at. But I will certainly also look at others as well.





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Peterb
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Re: why doesnt Ray like Chapuis s ??? [Re: bwanabloke]
      #30872 - 11/05/05 11:33 AM

Personally,

I find the Heym and Krieghoff boxy and a bit klunky although of very good quality. I find them a bit overheavy but better with the 470 as the exterior barrel size seems unchanged so the 470 is lighter. The Blaser has the best ergodynamics for me but that funky cocking system is NOT for dangerous game. I'd like to copy the butt and forearm, though. The English doubles have the others beat for looks, but are a couple pounds too heavy. Now for me, a 470 or so should NEVER weigh 12 pounds. It is just not comfortable to carry. I can live with 10-10 1/2 but asked Butch to shave as much as possible so my new 470 is 9 1/2 pounds. If it fits, you won't feel the kick. I find the Chapuis to be cheaper looking and feeling but have not shot that gun. It looks better at distance than close up. One must remember that the Europeans generally have a lack of regard for checkering. For great checkering, America has the others beat by far. I prefer the Searcy. Looks good, feels good, shoots great with extreme strength.

I changed a few things on my Searcy. I had the wood cheeks made just a bit thicker so I can add the carving such as done on Parker A-1 Specials and high grade Sauers. As a wood dealer I had Butch use one of my best pieces. Naturally, Butch makes the LOP, cast, drop to your specs. I have some other novel things planned for the wood on my next Searcy.


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