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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Will the PH save your life?
      #30559 - 05/05/05 02:01 PM

There are many posts on many Forums advocating, what should be, marginal or less than marginal calibers and methods for taking Dangerous Game.

Most of these opinions state somewhere that the writer thinks that if he screws up the PH will be there to save him.

I think that you should always carry a rifle capable of taking any animal you could face, whether you are hunting it or not, cleanily and positively from any angle. I also believe that any rifle you would leave at home if you were hunting by yourself you should leave at home if you are hunting with a PH?

Do any others here think this way or am I being silly?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Scott
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #30561 - 05/05/05 02:12 PM

I think that this is very practical. Assuming the PH will back you up, while it is his job, may not happen do to unforseen circumstances which may prevent them for being able to shoot. I could think of many things from blocked view, missing his shot, or too slow on the trigger. It is nice to know that someone has your back but I'm not going in and counting on my back being covered. Its too easy to run into something where no one has time to recover. I personally know a PH bitten by a hippo last year while looking for different hippo shot by the client. They had to air-evac him to the hospital. Good news was after a couple of surgeries he is back in business againg this season. The bad news was they never found either hippo for the client.

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Bigfive
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Scott]
      #30571 - 05/05/05 05:53 PM

I think that the PH will try his absolute best to do so if the situation calls for it and I have heard of a lot of PH's how took the charge of the animal and got hurt or killed to protect the client.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #30600 - 06/05/05 12:42 AM

I used to think it was OK to use firearms that weren't really adequate. I still do to some extent. The guys (or girls) that want to use a bow, muzzle loader or God forbid, a .45/70 (X making the hex sign to ward off evil spirits). The key thing to these hunts is all these guys are somewhat relying on someone else (the PH) to fix things for them if something goes wrong. Is that right? No, IMO.

If you are hunting by yourself and want to shoot a buffalo with a .300, then good on you. But if a PH needs to drop it from you to prevent it from escaping, or worse, squashing you, then it is just another stunt.

Of course in the end, it is your hunt and dollars buying it. If it gets you your kicks, spend your dollars and do it your own way.



In reply to:

I also believe that any rifle you would leave at home if you were hunting by yourself you should leave at home if you are hunting with a PH?



I agree for myself. Each person can make their own decision and take the responsibility too.


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: NitroX]
      #30602 - 06/05/05 01:27 AM

In reply to:

I think that you should always carry a rifle capable of taking any animal you could face, whether you are hunting it or not, cleanily and positively from any angle.



I completely agree.

In theory I have no trouble with the idea of a foolish person going out and getting himself squashed. But it is likely that he will wound an animal and one of the trackers or the PH will get squashed. Or the animal may get away and start squashing villagers. And besides, out of respect for the animal an adequate caliber should be used. So overall I think Mickey's statement is the best one.

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Mpofu
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #30603 - 06/05/05 01:55 AM

You cannot presume your PH is the best shot in the world, or that he reacts well under pressure.I have seen the best and worst of both.
I agree, the best attitude to have is that of a person hunting on his own.
You also need to strike a balance. Look at some of the DG hunting videos and see hunters with heavy calibre weapons flinch, and generally shoot poorly. A well placed shot with a 375 H&H mag would be infinitely better than half a dozen 470's in the rumen.
M.

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EricD
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #30608 - 06/05/05 02:48 AM

Mickey,

I prefer to be able to handle most problems myself, to the best of my abilities, rather then depend on the abilities of others. Not only in hunting, but in most situations. I have gotten the impression that many PHs simply don't have the oppertunity to practice much with their rifles, so I wouldn't bet on all of them being able to save a clients a$$. Not that there aren't exceptions amongst PHs of course, as some are obviously very good with their guns.

Erik

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DPhillips
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #30623 - 06/05/05 09:56 AM

I agree with most of what has been posted. I have to ask a few questions though. If we are going to be armed with a rifle that take any animal we might face from any angle, then we are shooting bushbuck and duiker with 458 Lotts and larger cartridges? Also, it does imply that we each carry our own medical kit, fully stocked for whatever injury we might face, instead of the PH having one in the bakkie or one of the scouts or trackers carrying it?

A stunt is a stunt, I would never try to hunt with a marginal firearm for any animal. However, using a firearm capable of stopping a raging elephant from any angle while hunting duiker seems a bit odd to me, I guess. I guess the old cartridges from 7x57 through, and including, the 375 H&H should be dismissed entirely from hunting in an area that holds Cape Buffalo, Rhino and/or Elephant.

Should I leave my 300 H&H at home and just carry the 500 Jeffery for Sable and plainsgame?

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500grains
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: DPhillips]
      #30626 - 06/05/05 11:30 AM

DPhillips,

Do you recall a story from Tanzania last season about Bob Fontana? Mr. Fontana was hunting kudu with a 30-06. A buffalo charged him unprovoked from behind a bush, instantly killing Mr. Fontana. In that instance, there was no time for anyone to shoot. But assuming there had been 3 or 4 seconds warning, most of us would prefer to be holding a .375 or bigger instead of a 30-06. The same goes when hunting plains game in an area with a lot of elephants especially cows. Of course it is not necessary everywhere. In most of RSA and Namib you can hunt PG without ever seeing any DG.

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mickey
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: DPhillips]
      #30627 - 06/05/05 11:45 AM

In reply to:


Should I leave my 300 H&H at home and just carry the 500 Jeffery for Sable and plainsgame?



No, of course not. If you are comfortable shooting a charging Cow elephant with it than take it.

Seriously, common sense comes into play also. If you are in the Kalahari shooting Springbok the chances are slim you will run into a Lion. However if you are in Zambia hunting Oribi and Impala the chances of running into a Buff or Ele or Lion is much greater, in fact probable. A 300 could be a mistake.

My original post dealt with my impression that many think that they can bring a light rifle etc to hunt DG with because the PH is there to protect them. That only the PH needs a stopping rifle.

I disagree with this theory as I believe that Murphy was an Optimist.

One should be prepared to protect oneself in case the PH can't do it.


--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DPhillips
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: 500grains]
      #30634 - 06/05/05 01:52 PM

In reply to:

DPhillips,

Do you recall a story from Tanzania last season about Bob Fontana? Mr. Fontana was hunting kudu with a 30-06. A buffalo charged him unprovoked from behind a bush, instantly killing Mr. Fontana. In that instance, there was no time for anyone to shoot. But assuming there had been 3 or 4 seconds warning, most of us would prefer to be holding a .375 or bigger instead of a 30-06. The same goes when hunting plains game in an area with a lot of elephants especially cows. Of course it is not necessary everywhere. In most of RSA and Namib you can hunt PG without ever seeing any DG.


500,
I do remember that, but like you say, a shot wasn't fired so it wouldn't have made a difference one way or the other. Problem is, a 375 isn't going to do the job either, based on the need for "stopping any animal one might encounter from any angle". A 375 is not a stopping rifle. In a lot of places, especially where there are surly elephants or even big Cape Buffalo, I think most agree that a stopping rifle should start with a big 45 caliber rifle.

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DPhillips
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: DPhillips]
      #30637 - 06/05/05 03:00 PM

In the end, I don't really think it is "Will the PH save your life" as much as it is "What level of risk are you willing to accept". While hunting in brown or grizzly bear country up here, sometimes I carry a rifle capable of stopping a brown bear, and sometimes I don't. I usually hunt alone, or at least while hunting I am alone. No backup if a bear does charge. My 7x57 is differently not a bear stopper, nor would I consider a 300 a bear stopper. I do try to use common sense and avoid circumstances that would put me in a better chance of bumping into a brownie at zero visibility than not.

What happened to Bob Fontana can be second guessed or claimed if he had more time and a more suitable rifle type scenerio discussion till the end of time, but as it remains, he didn't have time regardless of what he was carrying and it was a terrible unfortunate tragedy that took him away from us.

You can still be a man and not carry the heavy artillery on all occasions.

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Peter_V
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Reged: 17/06/03
Posts: 14
Loc: southern Africa
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: DPhillips]
      #30641 - 06/05/05 05:30 PM

Methinks the charge footage I posted here will shed a different light on this topic i.e. having to stand your ground and deal with a tough situation adequately.

--------------------
Peter V

www.africanhuntersguild.com

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Mpofu
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Reged: 02/01/03
Posts: 141
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Peter_V]
      #30643 - 06/05/05 06:04 PM

Shot placement and choice of ammo is as important as anything else when shooting DG, assuming one is using the lowest legal calibre (375H&H).
The idea of using a 375 H&H and upwards in DG territory, even when hunting plainsgame, is a good one. You never know what's around the corner.
Re the Buff charge, I have seen the same hunter and PH combination on the 'Hostile Ground' video, where she takes a good shoulder shot at a white rhino , which then runs off in the opposite direction. She appeared to be using a 375 H&H. The PH puts in two shots with his double as insurance.

M

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Will
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Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #30648 - 06/05/05 08:37 PM

As one might guess, I am against the trick hunt, such as bow hunting DG. Ask a PH how he feels about trick hunts. Hey, but it gives the PH a chance to get in some practice on shooting DG.

Two examples of the classic attitude "DG is not really a big deal."

My son went with the PH, I, and a bunch of trackers trudged off through some medium high grass to a gulley where a bunch of vultures were sitting in the trees....sure sign of lion. My son didn't "bother" to uncase his rifle. To the point, when that lion heard us and came shooting out of that gulley like a surface to air missile it scared the laiz a fare (sp?) out of him.

My son-in-law of his first safari in DG country wasn't going to bother carrying his rifle on a quick trip into the bush to look over a bunch of eles. To the point, it got scary for a few seconds. No more venturing into the African bush unarmed!

Screwing around with little guns not only puts yourself in danger but also the PH. Wounding game with little guns forces the PH into dangerous situations. Is the PH going to save you? Or are you going to have to save the PH?

Mickey posed the question quite nicely. If you were hunting by yourself?

More power to the guys that stick buffalo with spears or hunt elephant with arrows, but I don't trust the PH that much!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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500grains
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Will]
      #30696 - 07/05/05 10:49 AM

I did a trick hunt once - I shot an elephant and buffalo with a .585 Nyati. It was a trick to hump that 13.25 pound rifle 10-15 miles per day. The PH saved me on the walks back to the truck by carrying my rifle. The trackers were too skinny to carry it.

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atkinson6
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: 500grains]
      #30743 - 08/05/05 02:17 PM

Most of the PHs I know would step in front of a bullet for you, but its your duty to also take that same step IMO...I would be more interrested in a client being a good shot under stress than caliber of his rifle within reason, but if he can shoot a big kicker, that's a plus I suppose...I would also hope he had the presence to be loaded with solids on buffalo, Hippo, and elephant.

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AdamTayler
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: 500grains]
      #30748 - 08/05/05 03:17 PM



--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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AdamTayler
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: DPhillips]
      #30749 - 08/05/05 03:50 PM

I thought Bob, rest his soul, was not even carrying a rifle when he was hit by the buffalo.

I am in the same boat as you. There may be grizzly in the area but I'm carrying a rifle for the game I'm hunting.

When push comes to shove, I trust myself to protect my own butt, however there is a sense of security when there is backup and I would hope a PH would do his all to help me if the case arose. And like Ray said, I would come to the PH's aid as well. I think it is better to think of the PH as a hunting partner rather than a babysitter.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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Will
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: AdamTayler]
      #30753 - 08/05/05 06:31 PM

Of the many, many books I have read about elephant hunting, nary a one does not relate at least one near death experience. I guess the guys that got killed found it tough to write much!

A PH is a good thing to have along, to baby sit. I would be dead (no cheering please) if the PH, Doug Carlisle, hadn't been there to frighten off a ele cow that was coming while I was otherwise occupied.

There is a big difference between hunting DG by yourself and with a PH, or someone.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: AdamTayler]
      #30760 - 09/05/05 01:38 AM

In reply to:

I think it is better to think of the PH as a hunting partner rather than a babysitter.



I like that quotation. Great way to think about it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Oldsarge
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: NitroX]
      #30779 - 09/05/05 08:54 AM

Would a PH save your life? Mine did. Even though the buff was perfectly hit with a serious cartridge, a .404 at 2400 fps, it still charged. Even with a second hit, it got within 25 yards (2 seconds!) before Marius spined it. We call it the Zombie Buffalo. Was I wishing for my .450 Rigby? Not until it was over, when I had time to be scared!

I like what Terry Wieland said. "No matter what game your are pursuing, when in elephant country, carry an elephant rifle." To that I would add buffalo country, lion country, grizzly country, etc. Now about a .375 for your light rifle . . .

--------------------
Sarge

Holland's .375: One Planet, One Rifle!

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Plains99
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Will]
      #30913 - 12/05/05 12:27 AM

I agree with Steward on the "trick" hunt thing. I write a lot about blackpowder and muzzleloading. Took my plains game safari strictly with muzzleloaders. We were planning on going back for a Cape buffalo hunt with muzzleloaders. But upon reflection, I came to the decision that I not only owed it to myself but to my outfitter and his staff as well to go back there with the biggest and best round I could manage. In all this discussion about "will the PH save your life?" I keep coming back to "what about his life?" The tables could quickly turn and I'd hate like the devil to be standing there watching a man go down without an adequate gun to perhaps save his life. While I may take a muzzleloader back to Africa, I will also be carrying a big cartridge rifle. I have little interest in attempting a "stunt" hunt just to sell product. We already have too much of that in the muzzleloader industry as it is.

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mngane
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Plains99]
      #30918 - 12/05/05 03:25 AM

I agree that if you choose to go hunting nasty things that could very well kill you, you should be able to take the situation into your own hands. I dont feel that it is right to rely on your PH. I know it is his job and he is probably much better at it than you but what if?....... I was in a situation where I had a buffalo charge me and the PH (a very good hunter and absolutely competent) was behind some mopane very close to me but was unable to shoot. A fortuitous shot from my 470 stopped the charge at close range, dosent matter how far. What matters is that I had enough gun and was able to put the bullet in the right place. Well almost (was aiming for the brain but went over the horns and hit the spine....but that counts!!! im still here)
Cary enough gun and guts!

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Mpofu
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Will]
      #30950 - 12/05/05 05:59 PM

Is this, perhaps, what separates the modern day sportsmen from the true hunters of the past?
Having a PH to 'baby sit' a hunter is something people like Oswell, Selous and Cornwallis Harris did without.
One would fully accept the fact that for a hunter/trophy collecter with little or no bushcraft, on a short hunt for DG ,stepping off a plane in Africa, perhaps once a year, a PH is essential for a multitude of reasons, personal safety being one of them.(I include myself in this category).
The most important person to have along is a good tracker, or a good team of trackers. Every hunter in the past and every good PH relies on these guys, in fact it would be fair to say that a PH is to a larger extent, only as good as his trackers are.I have seen these guys sense danger or potential danger long before the PH becomes aware of it.
M

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