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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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wynwood1
.224 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Plains99]
      #31634 - 21/05/05 05:24 AM

if the company takes my booking knowing I am coming with a bow IMHO it is between them an the PHs that work for them to decide if the PH will take a bowhunter/muzzeloader.
when I am in the grass with that bow in my hand,how am I the client to know how the PH is going to react? It is a matter of trust on both sides.
but for the most part some of you are missing the point of archery. it being to stalk in close to unalerted game slip a shaft from a quite bow into their vitals. Any bowhunter can relate to how often they've sent a shaft thru an animal and except for a flinch the animal had no idea it was about to die a few seconds later....I've seen them go back to eating and simply fall over...the point being the animal doesn't know you're there.
I'll say it again for those lacking the courage to stalk in that close to DG don't! stay back at rifle range turn up your scope and blast from there, if that puts you at ease. But for my $ it is the D in DG that puts me in Africa to begin with.


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Plains99]
      #31635 - 21/05/05 05:39 AM

Some years ago KZN wildlife asked one of their rangers (Tony Tompkinson) to do a study on the killing effects of a bow compared to a rifle. If I remember correctly Tony took 99 animals of all sizes (could have been more) with a bow and then the same number with a rifle. The rifle shot placement was similar in all cases as the bow shot animals. The outcome of the study was that bow & arrows were no less effective at killing than a rifle - but that's for killing and not charge stopping.

From my limited experience the average bowhunter has far better fieldcraft than the average rifle shot - if they didn't they would never take an animal due to the range factor.

I'm not a bowhunter myself and have never PH'd a Buffalo bowhunt - but I'd be happy to do so as long as the bowhunter could pull the appropriate weight and as long as I had my .500 along in case things got sticky....... there would obviously be an agreement between myself and the client about when I would consider it time to shoot.

My biggest passion on Earth is close range Buff hunting. If I had one last day on the planet, I'd spend it hunting Buffalo if I could and as far as I'm concerned the client is the guy who's paying the bills - so it's his hunt.

Hell, he could slap it on the ass with a cricket bat or use a catapult if he wanted to.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Plains99]
      #31640 - 21/05/05 09:10 AM

Plains99:

Beautifully stated. You got what far too many "sportsmen" miss.

For hunting to be ethical, there must be a fundamental respect for the game animal and recognition of the hunter's responsibility to it - to take it as cleanly and humanely as possible. I've always thought Elmer Keith said it best: "Many hunters today are apparently small-bore crazy, seemingly wanting to kill as large game as lives with as light and small a bore of rifle as possible, throwing the lightest bullet obtainable; even to hunting big game with the .22 Hornet.......Certainly it is not sportsmanship they display." Elmer wrote that 60 years ago, but the same craze - "stunt" killing in all its forms (elk with a .243, buffalo with a splinter, stick and string, etc.) - is still just as prevalent today as it ever was.

The inclusion of Dangerous Game adds another dimension of responsibility. In most places dangerous game is found today, you won't be hunting alone, and the client has a responsibility to the legally mandated PH. He isn't rich, he's just an ordinary work-a-day guy trying to make a living, often with a wife and kids to support, in a difficult, sometimes hazardous business. That the PH accepts hazard is implied, but to what extent? His primary responsibility is to keep the client alive. The client's responsibility to the PH is to not make that any more hazardous for the PH than is ordinary and necessary.

And nobody is perfect. If, despite best efforts and an adequate rifle, I shoot a buffalo in the guts and he's on his way over, my responsibility is to do my best to stop the charge, as will my PH. For this I will need a rifle of appropriate pattern and power, as does the PH. Lets say that all fails and the PH gets hammered (it is usually the PH, not the client). First, that is the extent of the implied risk that a Dangerous Game PH should be expected to accept, but no more. Second, he may have signed up for the risk, but I fucked up and the blame for his injuries will be, to some extent, unavoidably, mine. Living with that would be hard enough. Were something like that to happen while I was trying to pull off a stunt with a totally inappropriate weapon, I could never justify it, and living with it would be gall and wormwood.

I'm sure a few PHs are thrill addicts who invite such antics. Generally though, it seems to me that asking a PH to accept responsibility for you while you grand-stand by stunt-killing a buffalo with a splinter, stick and string, or an ele with a .275 Rigby, reflects an ignorance of and/or a disrespect for his position. He may say no, and he may not be able to afford to. Sorry guys, this isn't hunting, its stunt killing, and does not involve sportsmen.
-------------------------------------





--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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The_Professor
.224 member


Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 17
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Plains99]
      #31643 - 21/05/05 11:31 AM

Hi Plains99,

Your ethical position re the muzzle loader is laudable. However the circumstances are quite different. Using the hunt as a promotional vehicle specifically to sell muzzleloaders, possibley to the inexperienced, specifically for DG is fraught with ethical issues.

A very experienced bow hunter, hunting DG in partnership with an experienced guide who has agreed to the hunting plan and is prepared for the consequenses should the hunt go pear-shaped, is in my view an ethical and honourable way to hunt DG.

Regards,
The Professor.


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Plains99]
      #31647 - 21/05/05 12:06 PM

I've got experience with a bow here in our whitetail woods and I will say that it takes better "woodsmanship", more patience, and more time on a per shot basis compared to our shotgun limited areas which take more of the same than our rifle areas.

I'm not so sure that wynwood has the cause and effect relationship between woodsmanship or skill and bowhunting or rifle hunting down. Most guys I know bow hunt because it gives them months more opportunity to hunt deer; always the desire to learn the skills and often the skills are already there. Guys who muzzleloader hunt do it for the same reason. Its legal here to hunt with a bow during muzzleloader season and with either a bow or muzzleloader during "firearms season" which may be limited to shotguns or open to rifles as well depending on the area. I have yet to see a fellow, who wasn't a felon, hunt deer with a bow during gun season and only during muzzleloader season because they didn't own one. Remember that just because the hunter is toting a shotgun or rifle doesn't mean that he's not shooting his deer at 10 or 20 or 30 yds; he may well be he just isn't limited to that range. Most of the deer I've shot in the last decade were shot at maybe 20-30 yds.

I've not yet shot buff but I've sure seen a lowly whitetail go a hell of a long way with lungs either cut to shreds or turned to jelly. More than plenty far enough to get to the shooter whether short distance with a bow or shotgun or rifle or middlin with a shotgun or rifle.

Also there is no such thing as the silent bow. They all make noise; some worse than others. If you haven't seen deer duck or jump the string you haven't done much deer hunting, at least whitetail hunting, with a bow. More often than not it seems the blast of a shotgun or a rfle reverberates enough the game doesn't know where its coming from. This fact is what began the debate over ejectors or extractors for DGRs about a hundred years ago and even over internal or external hammers before that.

One thing to miss or wound or graze a whitetail, another to do the same to dangerous game. I've dispatched three or four deer I've come upon during bow season that were wounded; some pretty mobile, all suffering miserably. What would have happened if it had been a Buff and some poor, unlucky villager or a tracker from the next safari group...

I hope my PH this Oct is a partner rather than a babysitter and I think it only pulling my own weight in that relationship to make sure that is what happens. I believe he will be equiped and prepared to do his best to pull my fat out of the fire if the need arises or the trackers or anyone elses. I know I will be equiped and prepared as best as possible to do the same for him or the trackers or...

I think its just an out of place ego thing to try to tackle dangerous game with an inadequate weapon. Can you kill any DG animal with a bow? Sure, but why would you try? Ego? Got something to prove? To yourself? To your wife or friends or me or... ? Hunt with what you want but don't expect any extra awe or respect from me and maybe just the opposite for not being in a position to pull your own weight if the unexpected "shit happens" happens unprovoked or god forbid because you blow the shot or your shaft is deflected, the bull moves...

On the playin' with the big tool comment about those with big bore bolts or doubles it sounds alot like its coming from the same crowd that needs to repeat to themselves "its not the size of the wand but the magic in it."

Same issues aply to shooting DG with a 45/70 which is something winwood lays claim to and supports with the same "for the guy with the skill.." arguement on another forum. Apparently he's shot three Buff in Namibia with a 45/70 and is going to post photos of those as well when he returns from Alaska(?) to his more permanent residence in Pa.

Seems weak in several ways to show up handicapped in such a manner that you can't hope to pull a member of the team's fat out of the fire if you need too, especially if you put it there to start with with an inadequate weapon.

JPK


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wynwood1
.224 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: JPK]
      #31672 - 21/05/05 09:55 PM

JPK in reply to your comments pointed at me, you live in MD I have my "home" res. in Pa drive over after 6/15 and visit can't be more than 2-3 hrs drive.
You've never met an archer whom carried their bow in rifle/MZ season? I suggest you come here to Pa then, or check the Bowsite.com/Pa as it is veru popular among serious archers to do so.
You mention my killing old george with a 45/70 yes that is true but you fail to mention I've done it with archery gear as well. Did you see the load I use posted in the other site/ TREX won't walk away from one of them. I've also killed brown bear with my longbow too, that should really raise your brow. But when you arrive at my home you shall see all the pics you'd care to look at and the animals.
Send me a PM with your cell # and I will call you with directions.
Stun? I think a guy driving an auto and not knowing tire pressure in 4 tires @ 70 MPH with his family aboard as traffic passes by within arm's reach is a grand stunt yet I'll bet 99.9% of the readers here don't know the tread pattern or PSI on their family sedan at this very momment!


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31691 - 22/05/05 12:05 AM

Wynnwood,

I didn't feel the need to reiterate your buff with bow since its in your posts on this thread; you also alluded to the bear(s?) in this thread too, I believe.

In your posts on the other forums you at least give lip service to the limitations of the 45/70 ie only really close, broadside heart/lung shots..., here you seem to be backing off from that with the TREX comment. Was rereading Gregor Woods' book last night in which he quotes Selous and others regarding the inadequacy of the 450 Express with relatively heavy and hard cast bullets. Ditto their comments on the 500 Express. Nothing has changed in 100 years and the 45/70 loads your talking about are in the same legue as the 450 Express. That cartridge was well thought of as a deer and antelope round, what more needs to be said.

Here's a good quote, Woods quoting Samuel Baker:

"For all animals above the size of fallow deer and below that of the buffalo I prefer the 577 solid Express-648 grains solid bullet, 6 drams powder...For smaller game, from fallow deer downward, I prefer the 400 Express...[A]ll animals from a buffalo upward should be placed in a seperate catagory...I do not think any larger bore is actually necessary than a No. 8, with a charge of 12 or 14 drams of powder...It may therefore be concluded that for a man of ordinary strength, the battery for for the heaviest game should be pair of double No.8 rifles weighing 14 or 15 pounds, to burn from 12 to 14 drams of powder, with a hardened bullet of 3 ounces. SUCH A RIFLE WILL BREAK THE BONES OF ANY ANIMAL FROM AN ELEPHANT DOWNWARD, AND WOULD RAKE A BUFFALO FROM END TO END, WHICH IS OF GREAT IMPORTANCE WHEN THE BEAST IS CHARGING."

The last sentanced emphasized by me.

Even in historical perspective, makes the 45/70 look pretty anemic, let alone a bow.

On the 45/70 issue, which I didn't really want to get into since it ussually seems to turn into a pissing match, its advacates are always talking of their 400 or even 450 grain bullets at 1800-2000 and either comparing them to the 450/400 NE or to the 458. The 450/400 400 grainers have more velocity and probably more critical to their success, from all I have read, they have much greater sectional density. Until the monometal 450 grain 458 bullets changed things somewhat all advise from manufacturers was too steer clear of the lighter bullets in the 458 for dangerous game and these are moving at 2400 +/-.Most still advise against 458 bullets lighter than the 480 grainers of the 450 NE etc.

African DG hunting now and in the past is and was a team sport. The greats of the past had trackers and gunbearers and so do PH's now and when we hunt we become part of that team. I believe a hunter should be equiped to carry his weight as a team member. Amoungst other obligation, such as learning to shoot well and practising, it is incumbent upon him to use enough gun to keep or get a team member out of trouble, especially if he's the one that got him in trouble to start with. Neither the bow nor the 45/70 comes close to meeting that requirement.

My thoughts (and the thoughts of Samuel Baker too !)

JPK


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: JPK]
      #31694 - 22/05/05 12:26 AM

A story from a hundred year ago. How relevant the comments here are to this thread.

... this is the power every ele-gun should possess ..

"This is the power which every elephant-gun should possess: it should have an elephant's head under complete command in every attitude.



The full story.

"My friend Palliser and I were out shooting on the day previous, and we had spent some hours in vainly endeavouring to track up a single bull elephant. I forget what we bagged, but I recollect well that we were unlucky in finding our legitimate game. That night at dinner we heard elephants roaring in the Yallé river,
upon the banks of which our tent was pitched in fine open forest. For about an hour the roaring was continued, apparently on both sides the river, and we immediately surmised that our gentleman friend on our side of the stream was answering the call of the ladies of some herd on the opposite bank. We went to sleep with the intention of waking at dawn of day, and then strolling quietly along with only two gun-bearers each, who were to carry my four double No 10's, while we each carried a single barrel for deer.

The earliest gray tint of morning saw us dressed and ready, the rifles loaded, a preliminary cup of hot chocolate swallowed, and we were off while the forest was still gloomy; the night seemed to hang about it, although the sky was rapidly clearing above.

A noble piece of Nature's handiwork is that same Yallé forest. The river flows sluggishly through its centre in a breadth of perhaps ninety yards, and the immense forest trees extend their giant arms from the high banks above the stream, throwing dark shadows upon its surface, enlivened by the silvery glitter of the fish as they dart against the current. Little glades of rank grass occasionally break the monotony of the dark forest; sandy gullies in deep beds formed by the torrents of the rainy season cut through the rumbling soil and drain toward the river. Thick brushwood now and then forms an opposing barrier, but generally the forest is beautifully open, consisting of towering trees, the leviathans of their race, sheltering the scanty saplings which have spring from their fallen seeds. For a few hundred yards on either side of the river the forest extends in a ribbon-like strip of lofty vegetation in the surrounding sea of low scrubby
jungle. The animals leave the low jungle at night, passing through the forest on their way to the river to bathe and drink; they return to the low and thick jungle at break of day and we hoped to meet some of the satiated elephants on their way to their dense habitations.

We almost made sure of finding our friend of yesterday's trek, and we accordingly kept close to the edge of the river, keeping a sharp eye for tracks upon the sandy bed below.

We had strolled for about a mile along the high bank of the river without seeing a sign of an elephant, when I presently heard a rustle in the branches before me, and upon looking up I saw a lot of monkeys gamboling in the trees. I was carrying my long two-ounce rifle, and I was passing beneath the monkey-covered boughs, when I suddenly observed a young tree of the thickness of a man's thigh shaking violently just before me.

It happened that the jungle was a little thicker in his spot, and at the same moment that I observed the tree shaking almost over me, I passed the immense stem of one of those smooth-barked trees which grow to such an enormous size on the banks of rivers. At the same moment that I passed it I was almost under the trunk of a single bull elephant, who was barking the stem with his tusk as high as he could reach, with his head thrown back. I saw in an instant that the only road to his brain lay through his upper jaw, in the position in which he was standing; and knowing that he would discover me in another moment, I took the eccentric line for his brain, and fired upward through his jaw. He fell stone dead, with the silk patch of the rifle smoking in the wound.

Now in this position no light gun could have killed that elephant; the ball had to pass through the roots of the upper grinders, and keep its course through hard bones and tough membranes for about two feet before it could reach the brain; but the line was all right, and the heavy metal and charge of powder kept the ball to its work.

This is the power which every elephant-gun should possess: it should have an elephant's head under complete command in every attitude."



"Eight Years Wandering in Ceylon" by Samuel W. Baker Chapter 6


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: JPK]
      #31699 - 22/05/05 01:58 AM

In defense of Wynwood, he stated earlier that he used a big bore rifle as his back up weapon and would have no hesitation in using it as such if the game turned.

I hope he didn't mean a 45-70.

I think Bowhunters tend to think pretty highly of themselves as hunters though. Granted, to correctly stalk and kill an animal with a bow you need good skill. Unfortunately I would say the average Bowhunters do not possess this skill. Here in WA some of the Elk areas have been closed to Bows because of the numbers of wounded animals that were lost to die and not recovered. One local yokel bragged about 'sticking' 5 animals before he killed one.

I remeber a Ted Nugent video of his shooting a Rhino with a bow. After putting a couple of arrows in it and leaving it for the next day they used a Helo to find it. He put a couple of more arrows in it and then turned to the camera and said screw it. He took a .375 and finished it. He stated that a bow was of insufficent power to cleanly take a Rhino.

I always admired his honesty and the fact that he did not edit the tape as some other have done.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #31701 - 22/05/05 04:08 AM

NitroX
Excellent story.
I agree with it 100%
Several times in Zim we would "turn a corner" while hunting other game and elephants would be right there, "danger close". Many times this happened when hunting plains game with my 9,3x74R double. When it did I would immediately, and SILENTLY load 2 Woodleigh Solids, and we would back away from the elephants.
I felt a lot more comfortable when this happened with my 450 No2 in my hands.

I think anyone who hunts DG owes it to the people around him to carry an adequate gun, and have practiced enough to have the skill to use it.


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wynwood1
.224 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: NE450No2]
      #31703 - 22/05/05 04:45 AM

how did we go from sticking Old George with a shaft to suddenly turning a corner and bumping a ele or flinging shafts into a Rhino or even what one local yokel did to the elk herd?
The PH is expected to keep me from pumping an ele or lion, etc. and if he doesn't then he's dam well expected to have an adequate firearm to quickly get us all out of trouble PDQ! That is one of the reasons I hire the PH to begin with isn't it?
If I wanted to hunt with a 500 I would. If I wanted to use my Searcy I would but these days I choose to use a Hoyt Xtech or my own handmade bamboo backed yew 62" 87# longbow, which weapon I opt for is my choice. and as Shakari put it it is my dime, if I wanted to stalk in to 25 yds and snap a pic of a herd of buff the PH would be backing me with his rifle the same as he would with my bow in my hands.
I've said it before.... if Ole George on a spit at 25 yds is too much for you PLEASE DON'T ATTEMPT TO DO IT! stay back behind a tree @ 100 yds and us it for a rest. Both you an your PH will be glad you did.


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31709 - 22/05/05 08:43 AM

In reply to:

The PH is expected to keep me from pumping an ele or lion, etc. and if he doesn't then he's dam well expected to have an adequate firearm to quickly get us all out of trouble PDQ! That is one of the reasons I hire the PH to begin with isn't it?




Yes, that is the babysitting function which was mentioned several times earlier in this thread.

In reply to:

...if Ole George on a spit at 25 yds is too much for you PLEASE DON'T ATTEMPT TO DO IT!




Personally I will not shoot buff or ele at 25 yards because it is too far. The range needs to be clearly inside of 20 yards for it to be interesting at all. Your preference may differ.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31712 - 22/05/05 09:02 AM

In reply to:

how did we go from ....




I think Mickey started the topic and it was about whether or not a client should carry a firearm suitable for all or most eventualities if hunting in DG country.

I don't think it was about the pros and cons of bow hunting except in the context of the question.

In reply to:

I've said it before....








--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: 500grains]
      #31723 - 22/05/05 01:12 PM

Wynnwood,

You ended your posts on other forums where some disagreed with you with the same end you place here.

Its a petty try at ducking responding to the reasons and reasoning of those who disagree with you, whether its me or NitroExpress, 500Grains or Samuel Baker.

I've never hunted buff and so am less qualified to comment than some others. My baptism comes this Oct and I will get to do it twice then. I like 500Grains' response though, kinda puts things in perspective, you don't need to use an inadequate weapon to get close, you don't need your PH to babysit you when you're close either ; get close and use an adequate weapon.

The ad hominem attack in which you imply you're the one and only with nuts big enough to sway because you choose to hunt under conditions in which your choice of arms make your PH your babysitter and in which you imply that those who choose to use an adequate weapon are nutless and should hide with their PH's behind distant trees and shoot at long range is just weak.

As I said earlier, do what you want but don't look to me for awe and respect; I'll reserve that for the non pro who is equiped mentally, physically and with a weapon adequate to actually save a member of the team that hunts DG. (Not that I don't respect the pro who does it either!)

From your post here and elsewhere you've told of shooting a buff in Namibia with a bow and three, also in Namibia, with a 45/70 but you've never shot buff with the 458 Lott you said you have or the Searcy of unmentioned caliber that you also said you have. Why? Thats a question you have not adressed, and what are you trying to prove to yourself or others? I have great difficulty understanding why a man would place himself in danger knowing that he HAD to rely on another.

JPK


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wynwood1
.224 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: JPK]
      #31737 - 22/05/05 10:03 PM

JPK let us get something straight right now, I couldn't care less if you, Will, 500 gr or anyone else as you stated,"looks at me with awe or respect".
you mention the need to be some sort of super hero to hunt with an "inadequate weapon" and why don't I use my 500 or my Searcy. 1st I choose to use my 45-70 and a bow 2nd those buff were killed in Zimbabawe not Namibia as you seem to enjoy refering to. 3rd I did not mention killing buff with my 458 Lott because that was not my point of reference in those posts on another forum, (FTR I have killed 19 of the species with several different weapons).4th you seem to have the attitude that only a "truely responsible,ethical hunter goes afield with what you deem "sufficent firepower" or else they are being babysat...may I offer this,some of the very finest hunters I know. In fact some of the finest hunters of all time carried NO WEAPON other than a camera into the field in search of DG with NO PH at their side at all! If legal I wouldn't use a PH to pursue DG either.
Go draw some blood of a free range Old George (your first) live the experience you've read about . Then repeat that 18 times over a few scores of years or so. Come back here and tell me you haven't the slightest urge to add a bit more excitement to the saga. Then an only then you have the right to judge me. A judgement BTW I could not care less the results of.
I repeat my dime I'll use what is legal and at my option. Your dime you call the shots. You wish to put those dimes up for me, by all means I will allow you to set the limitations. Heck! knocking dust off George's mud caked hide with a 460 Weatherby held some of my attention for many years too!


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31738 - 22/05/05 11:17 PM

Wynnwood,

Only you believe hunting buff with a bow or an inadequate rifle makes you a superhero.

Don't forget that according to you the mere mortals who choose an adequate weapon need to hide behind distant trees with relieved PH's.

For all your talk about it being your dime and anything legal you want to hunt with...The 45/70 isn't legal. Rather than focus on what an inexperienced guy like myself should deem to be a sufficient weapon how 'bout we just rely, for the minimum weapon, on the parks and game department of Zimbabwe? Or Namibia? Or Tanzania?...

If you're not looking for some reafirmation of your superhero status for using inadequate weapons why keep bringing it up on the three or four forums as you have?

On my inexperience, I figure to get to seventeen buff by the time I'm fifty, which isn't a decade away, unfortunalely. Til then I'll rely on the vast experience of fellows like Selous or Baker or Woods or Robertson passed on in print or on the likes of Ray or 500grains or Saeed or Keith Atcheson or Bodington here and on other forums and media who have that experience and from the point of the hunter too. You have slim company from the experienced group. If the thrill of the hunt fades or my respect for the quarry fades whether its deer or ducks or buff I guess I'd have to hunt something else, but with an adequate weapon.

JPK

PS the diference between the guy who camera hunts and the guy who uses an inadequate weapon is stark. First is that a bad camera shot captures the brush and thats it. A good shot captures the bull. In neither case is the bull actually involved. Not so when the goal is to kill him. Also if there is no PH and no tracker than the camera man is only putting himself at risk and only relying on himself, gotta respect that.

Edited by JPK (22/05/05 11:23 PM)


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wynwood1
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Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: JPK]
      #31752 - 23/05/05 03:50 AM

Me a superhero??? Cripes I'd better get my cape pressed,don't confuse my making a comment about ANYONE staying within their comfort range and my choices ( I believe you used the crass terms NUTS,did you not?) to extend my comfort zone to keep the D in DG for ME.
Was a time when I was younger that the 45-70 was indeed legal for George. Also you suggest we allow Zim., Namibia,Tanz to set the min. for George....well I hate to burst your bubble but each says archery gear is legal!
My "bringing it up on the 3 or 4 forums" is exactly what forums are intended for. Not everyone needs to feel they must be smoking Cubans,drinking Gin & Tonic or high dollar Scotch, and toteing a $30,000 DBL gun to be a true African safari treker. Truth be told I can well afford these pleasures and have indulged in them myself, but being "Continental" I have other interests.
Your inexperience is shown well, I've read all the "old Africa" works as well. While admireing the before mentioned living hunters I do not elevate them to icons as apparently you have. They are men, an only men, that I'd imagine would be the very first to tell you that themselves. Fifty is sadly more than a handful of years behind me now. BUT nothing bodes your age and inexperience quite as well as your PS comment....for when afield one is not at the local drive by zoo watching some tame lioness flick flies off her muzzle thru the rolled up auto window. Be you carrying a camera,bow or Searcy. Old George doesn't need an excuse to push out his chin and make a dash at you. He is as apt to take offense at being disturbed from his tail switching noon time siesta by the faint aroma of a shutterbug as a .375 smacking into his shoulder.
I'm off to Namibia on my next trip which is too long in coming. Followed by another booked already to Tanz to be one of the first modernday hunters there to kill a buff with archery gear...it's legal there now!
BTW I hunt ducks & geese in Tx,ND,Sask, AK, and Pa with a 20 ga....bet you're one of the 12ga. 3 1/2" crowd aren't you?


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31769 - 23/05/05 01:51 PM

In reply to:

I know when I go on safari I'm putting the good old US Greenbacks out to do it and make my intent known when booking. If a company wishes to decline me so be it another will not.




Sounds like you haven’t been yet. Someone who has been on 19 buffalo hunts would write, "Every time I sent on safari I put up the good old US Greenbacks and made by intent known when booking." But you write as if it has not happened yet.

In reply to:

I'd like to see the mammal that could live 5-10 minutes without the use of their lungs!




Then why wait a full hour before following up on a buff with an arrow through his chest, as you said you did? Surely 11 minutes would have been long enough to wait.

In reply to:

JPK let us get something straight right now, I couldn't care less if you, Will, 500 gr or anyone else as you stated,"looks at me with awe or respect". you mention the need to be some sort of super hero to hunt with an "inadequate weapon" and why don't I use my 500 or my Searcy. 1st I choose to use my 45-70 and a bow 2nd those buff were killed in Zimbabawe not Namibia as you seem to enjoy refering to. 3rd I did not mention killing buff with my 458 Lott because that was not my point of reference in those posts on another forum, (FTR I have killed 19 of the species with several different weapons).4th you seem to have the attitude that only a "truely responsible,ethical hunter goes afield with what you deem "sufficent firepower" or else they are being babysat...may I offer this,some of the very finest hunters I know. In fact some of the finest hunters of all time carried NO WEAPON other than a camera into the field in search of DG with NO PH at their side at all! If legal I wouldn't use a PH to pursue DG either. Go draw some blood of a free range Old George (your first) live the experience you've read about . Then repeat that 18 times over a few scores of years or so. Come back here and tell me you haven't the slightest urge to add a bit more excitement to the saga. Then an only then you have the right to judge me. A judgement BTW I could not care less the results of.
I repeat my dime I'll use what is legal and at my option. Your dime you call the shots. You wish to put those dimes up for me, by all means I will allow you to set the limitations. Heck! knocking dust off George's mud caked hide with a 460 Weatherby held some of my attention for many years too!




19 is quite a respectable number of buffalo to shoot. Did you take trophy photos? Everyone here likes to see trophy photos.

In reply to:

Was a time when I was younger that the 45-70 was indeed legal for George.




Can you tell us what year that was? You already posted that you used your 45/70 to shoot buffalo in ZIM. But Zim has had a legal cartreidge minimum for buffalo and other DG for several decades. So you must be a very old fellow for the statement in your post to be accurate.


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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31776 - 23/05/05 02:49 PM

Wynnwood,

When was it legal to hunt buff with a 45/70 where you hunted with a 45/70? My sugestion was re minimum rifle and the 45/70 doesn't make it and hasn't since minimums were adopted very long ago. I never questioned the legality of your buff bow hunts, just the motivation.

Obviously your comfort zone re range overlaps others when hunting DG. The difference comes up when it includes inadequate weapons, particularly illegal inadequate weapons. You put unecessary D in DG hunting for yourself but also for many more than yourself, thus you need to rely on others rather than be one others may rely on.

I consider it foolishness to hunt DG with an inadequate firearm, or a bow, but if you were alone, on the other hand, you would be relying on yourself and putting only yourself at risk, at least at that moment. Still seems to show a lack of respect for the quarry, in that the animal whether duck or deer or buff should be killed without undue delay and suffering and a lack of respect for the next sob that comes walking by the wounded buff that did you in or got away.

On the photo issue, thats the point. He may take offense but you're relying on yourself and your error won't get anyone else killed or injured, including some later passerby. You also make my point why a man ought to carry an adequate weapon. And you make the point that the man who doesn't needs to rely the one who does.

On the respect I have for the opinion of Woods or Selous or Baker or Boddington or Robertson or others, I don't think they're demigods, merely very accomplished journeymen. What makes me rely on their collective opinions is that each, through his own, unique experience, has come to a conclusion very similar to almost all other accomplished journeymen. Sure there are outliers, I recall reading that Harry Manners relied on the 375H&H his whole career for all DG, but it was legal of course. Still, the greater bulk of journeymen came to the opinion that a very good bit more weapon is needed, if the man using it is to rely on the weapon in HIS hands to kill DG and to keep himself and others safe.

Got to love the reverse snobbery. I guess all those PH's who either shoot or yearn for a big bore NE double are wannabe DuPonts eh? Couldn't have anything to do with performance or reliability. I'm sure the guy smoking Swisher Sweets, drinking hootch and shooting what passes for a factory rifle today could never prefer a good handrolled, single malt or custom bolt rifle or double, and surely couldn't recognize their atributes.

I'm unfamiliar with your reference to being a "Continental"; never heard the term used except to describe the origin of a person or thing. Not sure which traits or charecteristics are implied.

On the ducks and geese issue, I hunt them in Delaware, Maryland and Virginia and in Mexico and Argentina. I use an adequate gun with an adequate load. This varies with the quarry. I avoid using steel shot since it is a great cripler and better alternatives are available. I prefer Kent Cartridge Company's Tungsten Matrix in this country since it patterns well and kills well and can be shot in any shotgun with an apropriate chamber and proof, including any doubles. I like shot size 5 for ducks ( I buy it by the case or I'd go smaller for teal and woodducks early), and number 1's for geese. For the larger Canada races I don't think a 20ga is adeqaute even with so called magnum loads. Too many criples go on to die useless and lingering deaths.

I don't think posting the post you do across the various forums and getting the similar replies you do is what the forums are really for. More like boasting or seeking respect, awe or reafirmation to me. On go-on-safari.com you didn't push the same line near as hard as you did on AR or here, and you left out the ad hominem attacks too but Phil Lazzano made it clear that the 45/70 BS was just that. You pushed even harder on World Shooter where reafirmation was all but assured and you were free with implied nutless label for all who disagreed. You've gotten plenty of replies similar to mine though, and that ought to give you pause. Trolling?...Maybe not, but close

JPK


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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31785 - 23/05/05 06:03 PM

Wynwood1,

You keep using the term "Old George", and it has me wondering. Where, or from whom did you get this term for buffalo? In all the african countrys I've been in, and of all the PH's I've known or hunted with, no one I've met has used it?

Please enlighten me.

Erik


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wynwood1
.224 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: EricD]
      #31790 - 23/05/05 09:05 PM

Erik: you asked a question as to where I heard the term Old George.
I read it somewhere, it stuck and a few of my friends an I refer to cape buffalo as "Old George" now and again. Nothing of importance just a term surely nothing more than Mogumbo,Cappy,Sharky,Black Death, etc.


JPK: my final reply in response to you as it seems you're more interested in arguement to entertain yourself than anything else.
If you think you read any post by me on World.....something or other you are mistaken. I do not nor have ever visited that site. BTW I'm vexed as to why you never sent me that PM asking for directions to my home on the East Coast. You seem rather intent on trying to discredit an old man, could it be you realize you will be the fool if you do show up? Sitting down for a jigger of Wild turkey looking at some stuffy old mounts is still a comfort to an old man so please do. Also if you would've ask Phil you would get the reply about where HE & I plan to hunt buff with OUR BOWS! Reading that forum should have informed you to what my carry arm is as well for DG followup work both here in AK and abroad ( a custom 10ga SxS 3 1/2" ) or did you skip that part?
As for your opinion of inadaquate weapons for George...well let me just state they are like a part of everyone's anatomy, we've all got one but some of us try not to act like one! A lesson you would do well to take to heart!


500 you have asked several times to see pictures of my den or trophies. I have said I am away from the East Coast presently but will be back "home" in mid to late June. Upon further thought your constant requests seem along the lines of JPK. for that reason alone I have decided to just say "bugger off"...I am long past feeling the need to "prove myself" to the internet sorts as yourself, Those decades you ask upon (45-70) reach back to era WWII when safaris were truely safaris and just getting across the big salt pond was time consuming. Think what you may, rationalize whatever you wish in regards to me, matters little. I will however extend the same offer to you I did to him...PM me with your request to stop by my home in Pa d I shall reply with directions/dates etc.
Good Day to all!


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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31809 - 23/05/05 11:35 PM

Wynwood,

So you hunted buffalo in Zim with a 45-70 in the "WWII era", have shot 19 buffalo, won't post pics, and we can all "bugger off"? I wonder why you would bother to post at all if that is all you can come up with.


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wynwood1
.224 member


Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: 500grains]
      #31813 - 24/05/05 12:31 AM

I hunted in Zim more recently than that with Andy Kockott (sp?) Safaris on the Zambizi also farther North at Mhondoro. My reason for being coy with "information' is because I do not enjoy being put to questions. Frankly, I resent it! Therefore I purposely advoid the issue...a byproduct of 50 years of my profession
500 where do you hail from/ near Pa? Why not jog over here we'll tip a glass of Red Lable when in the area.Wyn


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EricD
.416 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31818 - 24/05/05 01:00 AM

In reply to:

Erik: you asked a question as to where I heard the term Old George.
I read it somewhere, it stuck and a few of my friends an I refer to cape buffalo as "Old George" now and again. Nothing of importance just a term surely nothing more than Mogumbo, Cappy,Sharky,Black Death, etc.





I thought that "Mogumbo" was what black people in the southern US said when they want "More Gumbo"? Gumbo being the thick stew/soup made by creoles...

Or did you mean Mbogo?



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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: EricD]
      #31820 - 24/05/05 01:13 AM

Talking about names. Nyati is used for cape buffalo as well. It was interesting to hear it used on by South African ghetto blacks as a name for a black female prostitute as well. I thought Nyati was Swahili for buffalo and Mbogo was Zulu (or a South African language) for buffalo.

???

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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