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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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Plains99
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Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 225
Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Mpofu]
      #30984 - 13/05/05 05:44 AM

Yes, but the PH and the trackers usually come as a package deal when a hunt is booked from overseas. I'd take the tracker I had over the PH any day but he can't book hunts and he doesn't have the connections that the PH has. I've read a lot of books on and by early African hunters and they admitted some pretty bad errors in their early years. Several of these guys talked at length about their relationships with certain trackers; some relationships lasting decades. It was obvious that the professional elephant hunters took great store in certain black men and considered them far more than just employees. I got the sense that they considered some of these men to be the backbone of their business.
And another thing, Mpofu, bushcraft here in the states is almost nonexistent. Most of the guys who book hunts for over there are really pitiful outdoorsmen and need all the help they can get. They are hunting off the top of a fat wallet and have very little knowledge of wild animals or animals in general for that matter. I listem to them talk about this trophy or that trophy, what it measured, what it weighed.... but honest appreciation of the hunt or the life and death relationship bond between the hunter and the prey blows right by them. I hope we're staying on topic but some of those guys need a PH that can save their ass because they sure couldn't. It is at the next level of knowledge or wisdom or skill that you as the hunter begin to be concerned about what you could do to your PH and the risk you could put him into through your own actions and ignorance.

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Mpofu
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Plains99]
      #31022 - 13/05/05 06:04 PM

Precisely my sentiment.
I did not actually want to spell it out, as I was a bit concerned about offending folk.
I sometimes wonder, if by sanitising DG hunting and making it a much safer sport, if we have lost some of the charm and excitement of the old safari. I recently watched a video, where a very fat and very unfit character collected a hatful of trophies. The spectale of this chap attempting to crawl into a lion hide was a really sad sight to behold.
I know it is not possible, but I would personally love to do a DG hunt in Africa with a couple of good trackers and no PH.The safari business would make sure this will not happen, it's jobs for the boys...
M

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Mpofu]
      #31024 - 13/05/05 06:44 PM

Some trackers become PHs and some of the PHs have backgrounds similar to the trackers. For example the black PHs. Some have good reputations and would be great to hunt with. Some of course are relatives of important well placed VIPs. Same for white PHs of course.

I never knew where the term "White Hunter" came from but it was to distinguish then white hunter from the black hunters, as was mentioned a while back on this board. Nowadays we seem to call them PHs and trackers maybe (?)



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Mpofu
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: NitroX]
      #31028 - 13/05/05 08:16 PM

You are right. The term 'White Hunter' was first used for a couple of brothers who specialised in Lion Hunting, in Kenya.
The book 'Safari' by Bartle Bull, is an excellent account of the history of hunting in Africa.
M

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wynwood1
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Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Mpofu]
      #31078 - 14/05/05 03:15 AM

what's this talk of "trick hunts" pure rubbish I say!
A sport wishes to hunt buff with a bow & arrow fine that's their choice and the choice of a PH to hunt them or not. The "it must be a 375 or better crowd" should pull their snouts down a bit, quit puffing on those old cigars and just admit it is the hunters option and his dime.
I know when I go on safari I'm putting the good old US Greenbacks out to do it and make my intent known when booking. If a company wishes to decline me so be it another will not.
Look at Zimbabawe for example I can go there hunting buff with a bow an they don't as much as list min. draw weight to be used, let alone weight of shaft,cutting head etc.
Do I own a 458 Lott? yes I do will I use it again, no doubt but should I wish to stick a buff in the ribs with a shaft I will not consider it a "trick" I will consider it a hard won trophy that I HUNTED until I could get the proper shot angle for the weapon I am using. I do not think a shot with a .500 "at any angle" is sport hunting just to see what damage it will do...that I consider caddish!!

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buffhunter
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Reged: 14/05/05
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31082 - 14/05/05 05:24 AM

My preference is to use a rifle that will do the job. A 375 mag is about the minimum I would wanna use. If hunting plains game I would use a rifle for that and not a dg rifle. I would not need to carry anything more.

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mickey
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31099 - 14/05/05 11:08 AM

wynwood1

I understand your point. My questions is this. What happens if you make a poor shot with your bow? Do you follow up with the bow or do you grab a rifle?

If you are sneaking around, looking for the perfect shot, and are charged by a Buffalo, what do you do? Do you shoot it in the face with your arrow? Wait for the PH to shoot? What if all you hear from the PH is a click of a missfire?

Hunter's luck if someone is killed or injured? After all, you paid your money.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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wynwood1
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: mickey]
      #31130 - 14/05/05 10:03 PM

Mickey: I understand your point, It is possible with a bow and /or a rifle of any caliber to make a poor shot. Nothing to be proud of but only a fool would consider the possibility of the event. At that point yes I would FOLLOW my PH ( provided he allowed me to) with a rifle.
Do I expect or rely upon him to stop a charge if I'm standing there with a stick& string in my hand....surely I do. IF his gun fails or he himself fails....well then guess I'm a grease spot in the grass!
It is afterall DG hunting, and I know that going into it...that to me at least is the draw of the hunt. If a PH or tracker looses his life along with me well that is a hazard of their choosen profession,is it not? No different than should I loose mine in an industrial fire at home at work.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31137 - 14/05/05 11:57 PM

Wynwood

The place I hunted buff last at, had a couple guys bowhunting cape buffalo. One was shot well and was dropped and recovered. I don't know the details. The other was shot pretty well but still was followed up for two days and ended up crossing into the neighbouring property. The PH I think had he attitude that it was the clients hunt and also their responsibility, unless someone was endangered. So one did get away.

I still call these hunts a stunt, because the client if the buff ran towards the hunter rather than away, would be able to do absolutely nothing about it. The PH would have to save his ass. Even a .30-06 would be a better idea.

I think Mick or someone mentioned, would a bow hunter have a decent stopping rifle carried along as well, if needed. Do you do this?

Note I am not 'having a go', these comments are just a discussion. I have no problem with hunters choosing a bow if they wish. It is their money.

I haven't hunted buffalo with a bow, and really these two hunts are all I have heard lots of details about. Please share some of your experiences and photo for us all to enjoy.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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wynwood1
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Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: NitroX]
      #31169 - 15/05/05 10:06 AM

when I travel to my main home in Pennsylvania I shall dig out the scrap book scan a few pictures then send them along to you for the posting.
I hunted Zimbabawe for Old George with my bow twice. Twice I can out of it with the skull mount. I was then shooting an 82# Hoyt compound and Alum. shafts. The first bull I had a complete passthru with both lungs being hit. He and his commrade ran off into the dust. We allowed 1 hour then trailed him up ...only to find him within 50 yards stone dead. My second bull was not a passthru but I collapsed 1 lung and hit the top of his heart...this old boy ran almost 300 yds out into the ( he was in sight the entire time in short grass but laid up in head high reeds about 50 yards square. After waiting we circled to get the wind correct then my PH started in with me carrying a rifle the head tracker had been carrying right behind him. We literally walked up to within 10 feet of him before we saw him. He too was dead.
Intrestingly both bulls died just as fast as they would have with a single 458 Lott thru their lungs.
Nitro, you mentioned a second buff being wounded an tracked for 2 days. I doubt that it was a lethal hit with that shaft... poor shooting I presume for had the archer placed his shaft in a vital that buff wouldn't have cared if that vital was damaged by bullet or shaft.
With the popularity of archery hunting these days I honestly believe that more and more DG will be offered by companies looking to fill the bookings.

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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31520 - 19/05/05 06:53 PM

These topics always degenerate into bullshit.

"I shot myself a ____ with a sling shot, and I killed it good. Now that's real huntin'."

Now if you are for real and not just talking shit, and want to be a real hunter and experience the real thrill of hunting DG, walk up to a cow elephant with a calf or two with your sling shot, and tell her to fuck off. (Don't bother looking for the trackers, they'll be long gone, and so would I).

We'll see who gets f*cked, and there will be one less sling shot story to deal with again.



--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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wynwood1
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Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Will]
      #31527 - 19/05/05 08:51 PM

Reading your reply to me I find myself wondering why I'm typing at this momment at all, but alas I am. It would appear you are both short on manners and good vocabluary skills.
I do not know you from Adam nor do I care to, caring less than spit what you think of me. My question is why have you allowed your ego to take control of your keyboard?
My choosen weapon is a bow and arrow yours appears to be your keyboard.
May I suggest that you take your ill manners back to AR from which you migrated? There at least you have like minds to bolster your courage .

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Mpofu
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Reged: 02/01/03
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31543 - 20/05/05 04:39 AM

Hey Wynwood, don't be too harsh on this guy, after all he is the type of guy who needs a PH to 'baby sit' him !
Reckon he only threw a tantrum because he lost his dummy !
M

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Mpofu]
      #31558 - 20/05/05 06:31 AM


I really don't care if guys hunt buff with arrows, spears, swiss army knives or whatever. But if your equipment is not capable of handling all contingencies, then it's a stunt hunt and the PH will act as babysitter.

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wynwood1
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Reged: 04/05/05
Posts: 26
Loc: AK1/2 yr, Pa 1/2 yr in the Lan...
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: 500grains]
      #31565 - 20/05/05 08:42 AM

I'm glad you don't care 'cause I don't care if you do!
Apparently Tanz. thinks it's a legit way to hunt buff as the just legalized it.
I don't think a bull that just had his lungs cut to ribbons cares if it was with a bullet or a broadhead, how much deader than dead can one animal get?

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500grains
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31572 - 20/05/05 01:54 PM

In reply to:

I don't think a bull that just had his lungs cut to ribbons cares if it was with a bullet or a broadhead, how much deader than dead can one animal get?



It's what he does between when the arrow hits and when he dies that matters. That could easily be 5-10 minutes. Hence the need for a babysitter...

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Mpofu
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: 500grains]
      #31582 - 20/05/05 05:52 PM

500 grains, in line with your reasoning, I take it the early pioneering hunters (Selous, Oswell, Cornwallis Harris etc..) were wrong to go out into the wilds of Africa with their inferior muzzle loaders, and , Heaven help us... without the services of a PH/Babysitter !!
Anyone who wants to take a Buff with a bow and arrow has my admiration and respect. I am sure they do their risk assessment, and know the dangers.
If one wants to really take the danger out of DG hunting , one may as well turn up in an armoured personnel carrier with a well zeroed RPG.
A rather well known PH reckoned that some hunters only used really heavy calibre weapons because they saw them as an extension of their penis, certainly not because they could shoot them !
Seriously though , choice of weapons is very much a personal thing, I certainly would not impose my choice of weapons on any other hunter.

M

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wynwood1
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Mpofu]
      #31586 - 20/05/05 08:41 PM

I'd like to see the mammal that could live 5-10 minutes without the use of their lungs! surely they don't exist on this planet except in some people's minds.
For my tastes it is a bow and shaft if others aren't up to that task that's their problem, and for them I recommend sitting in the hunting truck and blasting away from there.

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Plains99
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Mpofu]
      #31594 - 20/05/05 11:49 PM

Selous moved up with gun advancements as they developed... not so much because of power but because the old blackpowder guns were pounding him to pieces. I hunt with muzzleloaders and I've gone after some pretty big stuff with them. We took a 2,200 pound Indian River buffalo with .50 caliber rifles.... but there was a guy with a .470 double backing us up. And I must say, he was pretty damned nervous when we had to go into the bush after a wounded bull with only muzzleloaders to back him up. And that big fellow took a 600 grain slug through both lungs and was still on his feet 18 hours later when we finally brought him down. I'm sorry the bow hunter is so offended and I certainly don't want to leave the impression that I'm some sort of elitist but honestly... you wouldn't go into a dangerous game situation on the ground with a bow or a muzzleloader if you had an option. I can just imagine my reaction on a Cape buffalo hunt if my PH pulled out his BIG BOW to back me up. "Trick" hunting is a poor choice of terms. "Sport" hunting would be better. There is a difference and we all know it.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31596 - 21/05/05 12:09 AM

Plains99 - you posted at the same time as me. Very good post. I have heard of a lot of buffalo lasting for a good long time with a lung damaged.

***

Unfortunately nowadays the legal framework makes all this academic in most African countries.

Today it is sport hunting and people follow their own interests.

One client may choose to be independent and use a large big bore so as to handle any situation if things go well enough.

Another may wish to 'relive' a bygone age and hunt an elephant with black powder, as did Selous and co.

Yet another might want to try his skill with a bow and take a buffalo with a powerful draw.

Some of these ventures would no doubt result in the client being killed if they weren't backed up. Modern authorities understand this isn't good for future "sales" and reputations in their countries. I personally think that is a pity, I think "stunts" should be accompanied by an increase in the risk and danger. If that was the case I wouldn't call it a stunt anymore.

I don't see this is a need to argue. Individuals can follow their own paths and take responsibility for their actions. Very similar to the hunting of a water buffalo with a 6.5x54mm M-S which my friend is proposing. I have no doubt that 95% of the time it will be fine as he knows the game, the shot and is able to place the shot as well. For the 5% he will have to take responsibility if something else happens. Me too, as I will be there as well.

Have fun!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (21/05/05 12:11 AM)

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500grains
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: Mpofu]
      #31605 - 21/05/05 12:37 AM

Mpofu, as I said, I don't care what you hunt with. But it would be a mistake to assume that archery equipment can save your butt if the buffalo heads your way. And if the muzzle loader of Gordon Cummings is what you want to hunt elephant with, go to it! (I assume you will travel to Africa via sailing ship and then to the safari area by ox cart?)

Wynwood, there are many documented accounts of cape buffalo surviving for years after being shot through the lungs.

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The_Professor
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Reged: 15/05/05
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: NitroX]
      #31627 - 21/05/05 03:43 AM

I think the discussion using emotive words like "trick" hunting and "Baby Sitting" is unhelpful!

I hunt with a bow as well as rifles from 22 cal to 375 Weatherby. I have spent alot of time in Bow hunting camps as well as Rifle camps and have found most bow hunters to have magnificent hunting skills. If they do not they are rarely successful.

This is not always the case with the rifle people where some are shooters rather than hunters and sometimes not as skilled as they might be with their chosen firearms.

Of the bow hunters I have met who have hunted DG (in Australia this means Buff). All of them have been very experienced bow men looking for an extra challenge. The concept is to 'hunt' the Buff. That is stalk the buff to 20 yds such that the buff is unaware that you are there. If you are sprung you don't shoot. If you are not sprung, the Buff does not know where you are, you do not make any noise with the bow and the Buff has no way to charge you, except by bad luck or accident.

The concepts are not dis-similar with a single shot. You must be prepared to walk or stalk away from a situation where a bolt or double man might not have to.

With regard to the 'baby-sitter', I always consider my guide or PH as a partner. I discuss all aspects of the hunt with him for his approval, so that we have an accepted plan of action and an alternative if things go pear-shaped. I do not consider this to be baby-sitting but a highly professional process to get close to DG.

If all the danger is taken out of DG hunting, what's the point!

This post is not intended to disparage other hunters or shooters who choose to travel by another path but suggestions that what I do is somehow "trick" or requiring of a "baby-sitter" is a little harsh.

Regards,
The Professor.

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wynwood1
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Reged: 04/05/05
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: The_Professor]
      #31630 - 21/05/05 04:28 AM

proffessor: well stated! the guys that rarely ever hunt/ed with a bow have little or no idea of what they speak of. Lung shots with a 3 bladed 125 gr BH or better produce massive amounts of bleeding..this you and I know.
I have hunted with rifles all my life from 22 LR up to my 458 Lott. I can speak inteligently about them as well as bows. I do not think the opposite can be said if a limited amount of archery knowledge is held by a rifle user.
Am I offended by this talking down of archers/ Yeah right someone whom made their profession as I did doesn't get offended anymore!

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: wynwood1]
      #31631 - 21/05/05 04:33 AM

"For my tastes it is a bow and shaft if others aren't up to that task that's their problem, and for them I recommend sitting in the hunting truck and blasting away from there."

Geez, and I thought Mark Sullivan was a pompous, unethical cad!

500 grains and I finally agree on something. "Stunt hunt" is essentially correct, although inclusion of the word "hunt" conveys a higher ethical standard than is factually present in the activity described.
------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Plains99
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Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA
Re: Will the PH save your life? [Re: The_Professor]
      #31632 - 21/05/05 04:49 AM

I certainly agree that in my area, most dedicated bow hunters are excellent outdoorsmen.... as are many experienced muzzleloader hunters. I also do not believe that this is a question of courage nor would I impune anyone's courage for their weaponry decisions. We started out discussing whether or not a PH can save a life and it went to, in my mind, the question of putting the PH in unusually difficult circumstances. Really it is the PH's choice and he knows what risks he is prepared to take with what clients. I have gone on some dangerous game hunts with muzzleloaders because I write about muzzleloaders and in all cases I was invited by a company. The idea (whether we like to admit it or not) is that we are "proving" the capability of the muzzleloaders or the support equipment to sell product. You've all seen the ads... especially with the writer using Knight rifles and 240 grain Nosler bullets. Sorry, guys, but this is "stunt" hunting and something I had to come to terms with after the Indian River buffalo hunt. We were undergunned from the beginning and if things had gone badly someone could have been seriously hurt or killed. I won't do it again. It isn't that I am afraid. It remains a question of responsibility. Dangerous game is seriously enjoyable hunting and I intend to do more of it until I am unable. Your PH is your partner but....he doesn't really know what you will do...or can do for that matter. I've seen some "big name" hunters fold up pretty badly in situations that weren't even life threatening. I'm not attacking anyone's choice of weaponry but the PH's butt is more on the line with certain choices than others. They need the money just as much as anyone else.... but I choose not to put one in such a situation again.

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