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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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albertan
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Reged: 13/06/06
Posts: 432
Loc: Alberta, Canada
The .458 Lott
      #260887 - 21/02/15 01:54 PM

On another post I mentioned that I thought the .458 Lott was was one the most over-hyped cartridges of our time. I threw in most of the 7 mm magnums in that pile as well.

The Lott was announced with a great deal of fanfare. Here was the answer to the .458 Winchester problem. This cartridge was advertised as getting 2400 fps with a 500 grain slug. The author suggested that a load of 85 grains of IMR 4320 would be the prescription for this cartridge. Hornady today loads 73.6 grains of IMR 4320 in their Lott loads. These bullets are not the very long mono metals that would require a lesser powder charge just to allow the bullet to fit into the case. They are of a rather short stature considering their weight, and sectional density. The notion that a .458 Lott is capable of driving a 500 grain bullet out of a 24 inch barrel at 2400 fps is dangerous. A .460 Weatherby will not break 2575 out of a 26 inch barrel.

D'Arcy Echols was one of the first name brand gunsmiths in the USA to make rifles chambered in .458 Lott. As his clientele are very well healed, this was a hell of a boost for this cartridge. No doubt these rifles performed flawlessly, but they cost as much as a very good used car (probably an okay new car). Gun writers started to wax poetic about this cartridge. Eventually several companies jumped on the bandwagon. I can think of CZ USA, Ruger, and Kimber, to name a few. The CZ's were simply .458 Winchesters that had been reamed to .458 Lott. It was found out very quickly that these reamed out .458 Winchesters were not feeding. The custom shop at CZ has to open the feed rails (very carefully I was told by a gunsmith who works at the CZ custom shop) and adjust and polish the feed ramp to make this gun work in .458 Lott. The Ruger had stock splitting issues in .458 Lott. The have since discontinued this line of rifles, and this was (just) one of the reasons. I cannot comment on problems experienced by other brands of rifles in this calibre.

When I was in Zimbabwe, I was with a young, apprentice PH that took a BRNO 602 in .458 Winchester and had it reamed out to .458 Lott. He wanted my .458 Winchester ammo because: His rifle would not feed Lott ammo. He could not make .458 Lott ammo.(I sent him equipment and brass to remedy this). He could not find .458 Lott ammo. Other wanna-be-bwanas of my acquaintance have had the same feeding problems with their reamed out CZ\BRNO's.

I don't dislike the concept of the cartridge. It's an excellent round that represents my limit for shooting in a 9 3\4 pound rifle (fully loaded and what I carry in the field) comfortably a dozen times(or slightly more) off the bench during a shooting session. According to John Barsness, more than one optics company have told him that no adjustable powered scope of their manufacture can withstand the recoil of a fully stoked (2250 with a 500 grain slug). Fixed power it is. How small are the buffalo you are shooting at?

Please remember that Mr. Lott was drunk when he gut shot the Cape buffalo that inspired this plagiarized cartridge. The .458 Watts was out decades prior to the Lott, and was turned down initially by Winchester, who took Mr. Watts other, shorter creation. There are but a few scant thousandths of an inch separating a .458 Lott from a .458 Watts.

In short, I like the cartridge for what it is, a smallish stopper. 500's and 577's are better but at a compromise in weight, cost, recoil, et cetera. 2250 fps with a 500 grain bullet will do anything as long as you keep up your end of the bargain.

Edited by albertan (22/02/15 05:28 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26499
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: albertan]
      #260891 - 21/02/15 02:32 PM

Winchester actually chambered up and sold a few .458 Watt's rifles. I shot one, owned in 1972/3 by Lester Hatfield of Walcott Road, a rural road near Smithers, BC.

Les also had some loads, presumably that he got with the rifle when he bought it, State's side. Not sure when Les Hatfield brought his family up to that area- maybe early 60's?

I fired 3 shots and the stock split at the recoil lug, right down through and in front of the front guard screw.

The ammo was loaded with 600gr. RN Barnes .049" jacketed bullets and I think, case full of IMR4895. They kicked quite a bit.

Just thought you should know. As far as I know, there were very few of them built. Maybe Les knew someone

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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albertan
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Reged: 13/06/06
Posts: 432
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: DarylS]
      #260892 - 21/02/15 02:40 PM

Jack O'Connor had a Model 70 in 458 Watts. He wrote of it often and used it a bunch. I did not know that Winchester made a few of these up that got out(excepting a gun writing celebrity). Thanks for sharing that Daryl.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: The .458 Lott [Re: albertan]
      #260923 - 22/02/15 04:38 AM

It was the first and only one I ever saw - or heard of, but all stampings were true and correct to Winchester.

Now that you mention it, Albertan - I do remember Jack O. mentioning it.


It's kind of the same story as the .416 Taylor Ruger M77 that Ken Waters tested many years ago & wrote up in Rifle or Handloader magazine, then included in "Pet Loads" book.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: DarylS]
      #260977 - 23/02/15 03:46 AM

I've got a .458Lott. It's fun to shoot, feeds flawlessly, and is very versatile given the vast # of .458 bullets there are available. Is it a massive bump upward in power from a .458Win? Not dramatically so, but it may get you an extra 200 fps over the winnie and it does comfortably produce the illustrious and traditionally coveted 2150fps with a 500 grain bullet without too much stress and strain.

The rifle is a Weatherby DG Mark V complete with the tupperware (fibre?) greenish brown stock that they slather liberally in thin squirts of black paint they refer to as spider webbing. Ugly? Sure enough. Functional? Yup. But the Weatherby stock shape fits me very well and they do seem at least for me to make the felt recoil a little easier to live with.

Back to the Lott: Given my rifle was purpose built as a Lott on a platform that from the get go was intended for handling big nasty cartridges, all seems to gel nicely into a very functional package. I have yet to try going the other way and firing .458 Win ammo in it. I'm somewhat curious to see if it feeds well in the Lott dimensioned magazine.

Edited by Postman (23/02/15 03:53 AM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: The .458 Lott [Re: Postman]
      #260979 - 23/02/15 06:03 AM

Yes - that would be interesting.

The ability to trim back split necks and still use those shortened cases might also be of value to an avid shooter - after annealing, that is.

Straight cases can be difficult to get the powder to burn well - which is why John Buhmiller experimented with his 'duplex primer' system of loading. I tried his methods in one of my .458 American's and it worked a treat, allowing me to reduce the charge by 6 to 8gr. and obtain the same velocity.

It only works with full cases of powder as the bullet's base has to hold the second primer in place up-down in the powder column. I merely seated & crimped the bullets more deeply as accuracy wise, that rifle did not 'give a hoot' where the bullets were seated.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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albertan
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Reged: 13/06/06
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Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: DarylS]
      #260986 - 23/02/15 08:06 AM

Mr. Postman,

What do you get for velocities from your Lott with factory ammo or handloads? I must obtain 2150 fps with a 500 grain bullet over the chronograph (instrumental velocities) or I deem the load unworthy. Winchester factory 510 grain soft points get about 1950 fps out of my rifle. Pathetic factory ammunition is a problem with many calibres. That includes some very fine Nitro Express calibres.


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Kano
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Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 166
Loc: East Africa
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: albertan]
      #261456 - 02/03/15 04:29 AM

If the rifle is properly finished for DG use (and, mark my words and hold me accountable for a bottle of premium Vodka over them, almost no factory rifle is), .458 Lott ammo will feed as slick as anything else, together with .458 WM.

This is a very important consideration for anybody living in Africa, where ammo supply is, how to say... epileptic. A few .458 WM can be found almost anywhere if you're stranded.

Then, the 150-200 fps advantage over the standard .458 WM does make a noticeable difference on buffalo. I saw it with my eyes, and so did several PH's I know who have worked the WM for years, and tried or seen a Lott in action, or another .458 loaded to same velocities. Buffs do react more on impact, and they do run less, noticeably so.

So, to an African resident, the Lott does make a lot of sense, hype or not...

--------------------
Philip


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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
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Re: The .458 Lott [Re: albertan]
      #261475 - 02/03/15 11:47 AM

Hello Mr Albertan:

I will report back as to velocities once I get to a range where I can set up my shooting chrony....... May be a couple of months but I will measure and report back..... I have Horny Day factory ammo and my handloads..... Will measure both.......


Best,

Postman


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albertan
.333 member


Reged: 13/06/06
Posts: 432
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: Postman]
      #261483 - 02/03/15 04:43 PM

Mr. Postman,

Buy a new battery for your chronograph. It has been my experience that very clean barrels register significantly lower velocities than barrels that have had a few put through them. If your barrel is scrubbed clean, shoot over the chronograph 6-8 times and see what happens. I am guessing a 60-70 fps difference. Just enough to make you think you have a slow barrel, or more room for powder.


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: Kano]
      #261509 - 03/03/15 04:48 AM

Quote:

If the rifle is properly finished for DG use (and, mark my words and hold me accountable for a bottle of premium Vodka over them, almost no factory rifle is), .458 Lott ammo will feed as slick as anything else, together with .458 WM.

This is a very important consideration for anybody living in Africa, where ammo supply is, how to say... epileptic. A few .458 WM can be found almost anywhere if you're stranded.

Then, the 150-200 fps advantage over the standard .458 WM does make a noticeable difference on buffalo. I saw it with my eyes, and so did several PH's I know who have worked the WM for years, and tried or seen a Lott in action, or another .458 loaded to same velocities. Buffs do react more on impact, and they do run less, noticeably so.

So, to an African resident, the Lott does make a lot of sense, hype or not...




I have seen and heard both as to a .375 vs .416 on buffalo--noticeable difference as to how they react to the shot...

The .375 is all you ever need--but, if the .416 is available and you can shoot it well, why not??

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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ovny
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Reged: 19/06/08
Posts: 591
Loc: Spain
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: Ripp]
      #305200 - 12/09/17 06:22 AM

Hi, I see that the subject is old, but I want to say that I have a CZ550 Safari Magnum and I checked the feed with loaded cartridges and mixing 458 WM and Lott and without problems. Tomorrow I still try to record the food. A greeting.

Ovny.

--------------------
I am Spanish


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500Boswell
.400 member


Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1276
Loc: Queensland
Re: The .458 Lott [Re: Ripp]
      #305217 - 12/09/17 05:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

If the rifle is properly finished for DG use (and, mark my words and hold me accountable for a bottle of premium Vodka over them, almost no factory rifle is), .458 Lott ammo will feed as slick as anything else, together with .458 WM.

This is a very important consideration for anybody living in Africa, where ammo supply is, how to say... epileptic. A few .458 WM can be found almost anywhere if you're stranded.

Then, the 150-200 fps advantage over the standard .458 WM does make a noticeable difference on buffalo. I saw it with my eyes, and so did several PH's I know who have worked the WM for years, and tried or seen a Lott in action, or another .458 loaded to same velocities. Buffs do react more on impact, and they do run less, noticeably so.

So, to an African resident, the Lott does make a lot of sense, hype or not...




I have seen and heard both as to a .375 vs .416 on buffalo--noticeable difference as to how they react to the shot...

The .375 is all you ever need--but, if the .416 is available and you can shoot it well, why not??

Ripp



All you need is a 7mm Mauser ,just ask Walter


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