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CptCurlAdministrator
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Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles
      #30222 - 29/04/05 11:20 AM

Hello to everyone,

There are two Rigby sidelock .470 doubles currently being offered on the market. While looking and wishing I was impressed by the significant design differences between what I initially thought to be very similar rifles.

The first is on the Galazan website. It is 9 lbs. 4 oz. and described as having Rigby's patented sidelock. View it here:

http://www.connecticutshotgun.com/guns/6620.htm

The second is on the Roosevelt & Drake website. It is considerably heavier - 11 lbs. 6 oz. The close-up pics reveal that the pin placement on the locks is much different from the first rifle. This rifle looks to have conventional H&H seven pin pattern sidelocks. View it here (it's the second rifle down on the page):

http://www.drake.net/html/vintage3.html

I know there are many of you out there with far more knowledge than I. Can you explain whether these are different models? Does anybody have some reference information on the "Rigby patent sidelock?" What thoughts do you have on the 2 lb. 2 oz. difference in weight, both with 26" barrels?

An in-depth discussion among some of you Rigby experts would be interesting to this old boy.

Either rifle would look good in my gun box! (But I am not considering either one.) This is just an academic inquiry.

Regards,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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nitro476
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: CptCurl]
      #30270 - 30/04/05 12:32 PM

Nine pounds, four ounces is far to light for a 470. I am really curious why that rifle was built at that weight to begin with. In my opinion 11 pounds is a nice weight for that caliber and it will be comfortable to shoot. I wonder what the serial number is? I could possibly find out the information on that rifle if I had it.

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swt577
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: nitro476]
      #30271 - 30/04/05 01:23 PM

Nitro476 is exactly right. The rising bite Rigby on Galazan's website is far too light to have originally been a 470. In fact, this particular rifle (s/n 15950. circa 1887-1888) pre-dates the dawn of the 470 cartridge by more than a decade!

This fine lady, albeit beautiful, has been re-barrelled.

This hunter's search for a .450/.470 class nitro DR will have to continue...

SWT577

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mickey
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: swt577]
      #30273 - 30/04/05 01:44 PM

swt577

Welcome to NE Forums.

Where did you get your info on the serial number?

If you are correct it would have been a BP Express in it's previous life. Do you know what the proof marks say?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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swt577
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #30274 - 30/04/05 01:53 PM

Mick:

I called when the rifle was initially posted. In fact, I was so impressed by what I saw in the photos (I'll admit that I was in a DR-induced state of temporary insanity) that I overlooked the weight at the bottom of the listing. It wasn't until later on - with papers against the house drafted - that the light bulb moment came to me. I then rang Galazan and asked for the serial number which I cross checked against Rigby's manufacture dates...

The "exit deal" siren rang quite loudly and woke me from my induced state of DR bliss.

SWT577

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mickey
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: swt577]
      #30276 - 30/04/05 02:58 PM

Did you ask about proof marks? There was a fellow who used to live on the Mississippi River who was known to send BP rifles to Belgium to have them re bored and counterfeit British Proof Marks added.

I saw a couple of them in a small shop in Liege once and could not believe that, a supposed reputable, dealer would do this.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #30281 - 30/04/05 04:47 PM


"There was a fellow who used to live on the Mississippi River who was
known to send BP rifles to Belgium to have them re bored and counterfeit
British Proof Marks added.

I saw a couple of them in a small shop in Liege once and could not believe that, a supposed reputable,
dealer would do this."

It is also highly illegal to falsify proof marks.

Mickey - why didn't you shut them down ?

500 Nitro

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: swt577]
      #30283 - 30/04/05 04:58 PM


swt577,

"This hunter's search for a .450/.470 class nitro DR will have to continue..."

What are you after ?

A freind on mine in the US emailed me a couple of weeks ago about a 450 of some sort.

Post back or email me if you want and I will try to find the email.

If you find a Rigby 450, they are great guns - I love mine, both to look at and shoot.

500 Nitro

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swt577
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: swt577]
      #30291 - 30/04/05 10:34 PM

Mick:

No, I didn't pursue any information on the proof marks. Once I realized it could not be original, I had no interest in it and walked away. This occurred around the first of December, 2004.

I later saw the rifle on a display stand at the SCI show (Jan 2005) in Galazan's booth. I didn't bother to pick it up and inspect it further, knowing it had been altered from original.

SWT577

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swt577
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30292 - 30/04/05 10:50 PM

In reply to:




What are you after ?

A freind on mine in the US emailed me a couple of weeks ago about a 450 of some sort.

Post back or email me if you want and I will try to find the email.



500 Nitro:

I am looking for a .470/.465/.450 class nitro double. I have a Droplock 577/100/750 that I carried in Africa last June. It performed beautifully, but at 13 lbs 4 oz, I returned home and began to look for a lighter weight mate to the big Westley. The thought of an 11 pound rifle seems like the ideal solution for future cape buffalo adventures.

I would appreciate any input regarding your friend's email on the 450 for sale. Please PM me.

Thanks and Regards,
SWT577

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: swt577]
      #30305 - 01/05/05 12:12 AM


SWT577,

WR 577 Sounds nice - Having carried 10 - 13lb guns for weeks in 30 - 40 degree heat,
I know what you mean. I have a WR Droplock 400/360.

This is for your info / reference only - the guns are not for sale but may give you some
pointers if you find something similar.

WR 500/465, Short barreled (23 inches ?) gun - absolutely great to carry and shoot.
- I would buy any others I saw.
WR500Nitro "White Hunter" - made in the 50's, 22 inch barrels, great gun
- if you find one, they are superb.
Rigby 450 Nitro (Webley action) - 28 inch barrels - great gun, good to shoot. Barrels a bit long but it's original
and cased with all accessories so don't want to chnge it.
2 x Army / Navy 500 Nitro - 27's barrels guns - both a bit muzzle heavy but am glad of the weight (11lbs).
Have carried one for a week hunting buff without a problem.

Used to have a Jeffrey 450 No 2 but since I decided to keep the 450 Rigby I sold the Jeffrey 450 No 2.
It is one of the few guns I didn't shoot and wish I had as it was a great gun - short barreled and the 450 No2
is a great cartridge.

Have a Merkel 470 and a William Douglas 470 that are both using guns - I like both but they don't warm
your heart like a true English gun.

Will try to find email and PM you. I may have to email my mate to see if I am correct in my memory
(or whether I have fired too many shots from my big doubles !!!).

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

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mickey
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30338 - 01/05/05 09:54 AM

500Nitro

It wasn't illegal in Belgium to rebore or rebarrel. It was to do it and not reproof. It may have been illegal to counterfeit the Brit. proofs. I'm not sure who you would report to to close the gunsmith down.

As for the gentleman from the US. His reputation for honesty was already pretty poor. It was known over here that you needed to double check any of his rifles and be particularly observant on any old rifles that may have been BP.

I saw .577 2 3/4 that had hammers, BP rear site and nitro proofs at a gunshow about 5 years ago. The gun had been totally refinished and there were no BP proofs even though it was made in 1895. (20 serial #'s before a 450 express I had at the time). It was on the table of a big dealer from Alaska and when I pointed it out to him he told me that it was none of my business and to leave his table.

I asked him if it bothered him to sell a fraud and all he said was buyer beware.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #30346 - 01/05/05 12:48 PM


Mickey,

Re "It may have been illegal to counterfeit the Brit. proofs." Of course it is, you know that.

As to who to report it to - try the Proof house !!! It is a very serious charge in Europe / UK
to falsify gun proofs.

It's also illegal in the US to sell fake / farudulant / misrepresented items / guns - ie the fake Holland Shotguns
that caused a certain jailing of a gun dealer.

As to "It was on the table of a big dealer from Alaska and when I pointed it out to him he told me
that it was none of my business and to leave his table." "I asked him if it bothered him to sell a fraud and
all he said was buyer beware".

That's maybe why they have such a bad name and it is your business as it's your head next to the barrels !!!

The opposite of the above is Champlins looking at one of the post on this web site where he took the gun back
after it had problems.

You get what you pay for.

500 Nitro

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JeffWemmer470
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Reged: 03/05/05
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: CptCurl]
      #30412 - 03/05/05 03:21 AM

Thanks guys for the insight! I was all hot and bothered about the Rigby at CSMC as well.

I won't rule it out yet, but will really take a close look before buying.

There is a beautiful Rigby on the Holland and Holland New York Gun Room site. BUT....She too has been monkied with...Completely re-done to be exact, including being re-chambered to .470. Beautiful rifle though (kinda like a woman that has had all of the "work" done - better to look at, than to buy!!!)

I really wish that if folks are going to mess with these rifles they'd at least do them back to original specs - if they must goof them up at all.

I have a 1920 Rigby Boxlock that is an original .470, was re-finished at rigby's in 1981 and is in near-new condition - bad enough that she was re-done, but not nearly as horrible as re-barreling and rechambering.

Check out the H & H site:

http://www.hollandandholland.com/~newyork/index.htm

Jeff

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: JeffWemmer470]
      #30416 - 03/05/05 05:14 AM

Jeff,

"bad enough that she was re-done,"

The UK is different to the US it seems.
Guns in the UK, (ie Shotguns, Double Rifles) get sent back to the factory by the owners
at the end of each season or 2 fr a clean up, replacement etc etc.
This is particulalry so with high end guns like Holland, Purdey, Boss etc.

Very few used guns in the UK are totally original and it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue
as in the US - which I have been told stems from the COLT / Winchester collecting mentality
of originality.

If you had seen the state of some of the guns that came out of India (Double Rifles), you wouldn't
touch them - nothing wrong with the gun metal, just wood wrotten etc from the Wallahs painting
on oil with a Mop !!!

Therefore I can't see what the problem is with this originality thing - if something goes wrong with
the gun, trigger pressure is too high, are you going to get it fixed and parts replaced or would you
leave it as it and possibly unuseable just so it keeps it's originality ?

Anyway, just my HO. I wlook forward to your reply.

500 Nitro

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Chasseur
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30418 - 03/05/05 07:04 AM

500 Nitro,

Well said.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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nitro476
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30422 - 03/05/05 08:01 AM

Very well put! I have had a few Indian guns cross my path and to be honest they looked as if someone pissed on the metal work and the wood was God awful! I would buy them and send them off for refurbishing. If they were left in the condition that I purchased them, they were only suitable for a boat anchor.

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mickey
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: JeffWemmer470]
      #30433 - 03/05/05 12:50 PM

In reply to:

There is a beautiful Rigby on the Holland and Holland New York Gun Room site. BUT....She too has been monkied with...Completely re-done to be exact, including being re-chambered to .470. Beautiful rifle though (kinda like a woman that has had all of the "work" done - better to look at, than to buy!!!)



Jeff

What was the Holland rechambered from and why? If it was simply a 450 rechambered at the turn of the Century no problem. If it was a 450 or 465 rechamberd because of pitting still no problem if done correctly and reproofed.

I have a friend who has a Holland 470 that was a 450 but was rebored and rechamberd in Ferlach. This is absolutely the most accurate Double rifle I have ever seen or heard of. Unfortunately for me he has much more money than I do and loves the rifle dearly. Two reasons I will never get my hands on it.

Barrels added in the US and rechambering done in the US are not usually reproofed. This is not good, no matter who does the work, as the provenance of the rifle has a gap. Any rifle that I look at must have the proper information attached or I will run, not walk away.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #30435 - 03/05/05 01:23 PM


Thanks

One more thing I wuld like to add - it seems that US (ie Americans) are the ones
who go on about Originality but it is actually the US Gun trade that seems to do them
up like they do - the guy who does all the recolour case hardeing in the US being one good example.

I personally don't like refinished guns as I use mine too much in the bush so they wouldn't look
prisitne afterwards so why buy a refinshed gun.

I think mickey summed it up well - REPROOFED

If the work was done correctly and the gun has passed reproof (pref UK Proof), then no problem.
(As mickey correctly pointed out, alot of H&H 450's were rebarreled/rechambered to 500/465).

"Barrels added in the US and rechambering done in the US are not usually reproofed. This is not good, no matter
who does the work, as the provenance of the rifle has a gap. Any rifle that I look at must have the proper
information attached or I will run, not walk away."

The one I have seen most in the US are the 375 2 1/2" NE rechambred to 375 Flanged Magnum (the Holland cartridge).
I saw a few of the Cogswell & Harrison 375 2 1/2" NE doubles in the US so rechambered and NOT Proofed
and this action would never take the pressure. The Cogswell & Harrison 375 2 1/2" NE doubles were good guns
for what they were but everyone semed to try to make them into something that they are not.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing other people's opinions.

500 Nitro

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JeffWemmer470
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30481 - 04/05/05 06:07 AM

Point taken on the proper "reproofing" aspect of this discussion - logical. Refinishing back at the factory is also a fairly benign practice as well. Both are good with me should they be done by the factory / authorized repair operation.

From a collector's standpoint, "changing up" the weapon from its original configuration - this will definately decrease the value of the weapon. And in particular if the modifications are not "factory authorized".

One of the guns in thread has definately been altered from original and is demanding a very high price for a "non original" rifle - great guns from a shooter's standpoint but not a collector's.

If we are talking collectable "shooters" (that's me) then I'm with you guys, who cares what has been done to the rifle if in fact is was "properly" serviced. re-proofed, etc.

As far as the "American" connotation you are correct in that over here refinishing a gun has a bad stigma attached to it. For example, the Parker shotgun collectors over here frown heavily upon re-finished guns and this is reflected in the pricing.

To sum it all up, seems that there are some really nice old Rigby's out there for sale, but the issue is that they are "shooters" being offered at "collector" prices.

Thanks for all of the input,

Jeff

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: JeffWemmer470]
      #30482 - 04/05/05 07:38 AM


Very valid points you make.

I think the whole confusion is because we have
COLLECTORS
SHOOTERS,
SHOOTERS WHO COLLECT
COLLECTORS WHO SHOOT

And then you have people who are both !!!


500 Nitro

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mickey
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #30489 - 04/05/05 09:54 AM

Regarding the Rigby from Galazan. this is the response to a question I asked as to rebore or rechamber.

In reply to:

We sent the gun to England several weeks ago to have it re-proofed. If you wish to leave your telephone number I can call you when it arrives back.

thanks!
Lou @ CSMC



Apparently it was an issue with buyers.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #30490 - 04/05/05 10:37 AM


Mickey,

Firstly, it shows the level of integrity that tey try to sell it without a reproof.

Secondly, lets hope it passes reproof or they could end up with 1 Action, 1 Foreend
and 2 pieces of barrel !!!

500 Nitro

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #30493 - 04/05/05 11:01 AM

What bothers me:

If you look at the description on the CSMC website it gives the strong impression that this is an unaltered, unrefinished, totally original rifle.


"London - Pre War Sidelock, Double Rifle, .470 Nitro Express, 26", rising bite, Rigby's patented sidelock, pistol grip, pad, completely gone through & checked, cleaned up, 100% perfect, un-refinished condition, mechanically & physically a new gun, if you are looking for that most fabled Double Rifle, in the best caliber, ready to go, this is it.

14 1/8", 9 lbs., 4 oz.

$ 39,995.00"


An unsuspecting buyer could fail to understand the alterations to this rifle. On top of that, it evidently was out of proof, yet nothing was mentioned. That's not "cricket" by my sense of dealing.

Just MHO.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Re: Two Rigby Rising Bite SLE .470 Double Rifles [Re: CptCurl]
      #30500 - 04/05/05 12:29 PM


CptCurl

That's why the rest of the world has proof laws - to stop misrepresentation of guns
and the sale of potentially unsafe guns.

I have always said that "it is not what they tell you, it is what they DON'T tell you about" that is important.

I just automatically assume in the US that you have to look twice as hard before buying something
as it seems that the US dealers "aren't 100%".

500 Nitro

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