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Ripp
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FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article
      #304715 - 03/09/17 04:31 AM

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/08/fbi-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45/

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Homer
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Ripp]
      #304826 - 05/09/17 08:52 AM

G'Day Fella's,

Thank you for sharing Ripp.

They say that, "Those that ignore history, are bound to repeat it".
Whilst bullet technology has come a long way in the last 20 years, from what I understand, when it comes to offensive and defensive handguns use, there is no substitute for bullet diameter.

In my own experience, I would say that this has more to do with budgetary constraints than cartridge size. That being, it is easier and faster (use less ammo), to train an individual to be competent to pass a test with a 9mm Para, than it is a .40 S&W, 10mm Auto, .45 ACP etc.
Multiply this by the cost of training and qualifying 10,000 FBI agents, and there is a possible answer.

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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Rule303
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Homer]
      #304834 - 05/09/17 10:01 AM

Where to start?

Bullet technology. The advances made in bullet design/construction apply to all calibres so this is basically a moot point. All the same.

45 cal is generally to big in hand grip and recoil is to much for a lot of LEO. This alone counts the 45 out. Unfortunately.

Most LEO have gone away from +P loads. In light weight pistols like the Glock etc these cause a torque twist up and to the right and took longer to get back on target then the 40 cals with a lower velocity that just came straight back. This is no longer a point as they use standard velocity 9mm ammo.

One shot stop myth. Well no it is not a myth, it does happen but very infrequently. Those using a 40 cal have it more often then those using a 9mm, head shots not coming into this.

The FBI summary says that Drs cant pick the difference between 9mmand 45 cal pistol primary wound channels?????? Yep I question that. With ball ammo yes I can see it, with modern expanding ammo where the petals tend to cut not push aside flesh. I think the varsity of there statement is highly questionable. I wonder what the actual wording and parameters of the investigation in to this aspect were. ie is the statistician making his/her own rules for interpretation of data.

Leathality. Plain and simple, the bigger the hole the more blood is let out for a given time the quicker the incapacitation.

Hits on target. Well this comes down to training and using live rounds is a very poor way to train for this once marksman ship has been achieved. LEO's need to be trained with simmunition/airsoft etc. They need to be put through scenario training where they shoot at people and are put under some form of psychological pressure both tactically and pulling the trigger on a human aspect. This more than range time results in far higher hit and accurate hit rates. Cost well the cost of 9mm and 40cal simmunition is not that great and you do not use large amounts of this ammo when training as spray and pay gets you a figurative kick up the bum.

With decreasing number of offenders being drug or psychologically affected LEO need the ammo that has the greatest affect whilst being controllable 9mm or 40 cal fits the bill. + they need the correct training.


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ducmarc
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Rule303]
      #304880 - 06/09/17 01:00 PM

If u can't shoot don't be a cop.all my daughters learned on a 1911 before they even knew the was softer kicking guns my youngest is 5'4" and has tiny hands prefers my tt33 tokerev.it fits her hand good and has a sharp kick but doesn't stop her from shooting it well.i think the wrong people sign up.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Rule303
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: ducmarc]
      #304887 - 06/09/17 06:47 PM

Unfortunately or fortunately there is far more to policing then just shooting. Even some of the best shots can not hit a human. The psychology side of things wont let most people kill another person. This side takes more training than the how to shoot a gun side. Lots of studies on this subject from the late 1800's to now.

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Ripp
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Rule303]
      #304890 - 06/09/17 10:59 PM

Quote:

Unfortunately or fortunately there is far more to policing then just shooting. Even some of the best shots can not hit a human. The psychology side of things wont let most people kill another person. This side takes more training than the how to shoot a gun side. Lots of studies on this subject from the late 1800's to now.




Read an article recently that the percentage of hits on criminals was around 30% by LEP..way higher for the criminals...The Good Guys have a conscience, criminals, not so much...as you stated, usually by the time it gets to shooting, stress is out of control for many...

Just went into google and just found this..:

In 2006, in cases where police officers intentionally fired a gun at a person, they discharged 364 bullets and hit their target 103 times, for a hit rate of 28.3 percent, according to the department's Firearms Discharge Report. The police shot and killed 13 people last year.Dec 9, 2007
A Hail of Bullets, a Heap of Uncertainty - The New York Times
www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html










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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (06/09/17 11:15 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Ripp]
      #304896 - 07/09/17 03:07 AM

Surprising what training does for you.

yes- I know this refers to a different era - but both these responses were taught to us in training.

"Lawyer" - "Constable, why did you shoot "X" 6 times in the chest when the first shot was a fatal one."

"Constable" turns and faces the judge, not the lawyer and states. "Your Honour - I was taught to shoot centre of mass 6 times, re-load and shoot it another 6 times, repeating as long as the threat against me and the public was standing. The criminal went down on my 6th shot so I reloaded then holstered my revolver", radioed in the case then checked the criminal for life signs.

Not many years after this, 2 shots to the chest, one to the head was the drill, repeating the drill and reloading, etc., due to the odd use of protective vests worn by criminals.

With proper training, there is no time to get all psycological about -there is only time to react to training in a life threatening situation.
Centre of mass - powpowpowpowpowpow-reload-powpwopowpowpowpow-reload etc.

Perhaps some people joined police forces, who should have been working at desks or on construction jobs. Of course we all know that happens and these are the ones who get fellow police officers killed.

Once the shooting is over, show a great deal of remorse, then private, party-hearty that night - with close, trustworthy friends, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ducmarc
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: DarylS]
      #304903 - 07/09/17 06:19 AM

Its a sorry job I take my hat off to everyone who does it

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Rule303
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: DarylS]
      #304905 - 07/09/17 07:40 AM

Quote:

Surprising what training does for you.

yes- I know this refers to a different era - but both these responses were taught to us in training.

"Lawyer" - "Constable, why did you shoot "X" 6 times in the chest when the first shot was a fatal one."

"Constable" turns and faces the judge, not the lawyer and states. "Your Honour - I was taught to shoot centre of mass 6 times, re-load and shoot it another 6 times, repeating as long as the threat against me and the public was standing. The criminal went down on my 6th shot so I reloaded then holstered my revolver", radioed in the case then checked the criminal for life signs.

Not many years after this, 2 shots to the chest, one to the head was the drill, repeating the drill and reloading, etc., due to the odd use of protective vests worn by criminals.

With proper training, there is no time to get all psycological about -there is only time to react to training in a life threatening situation.
Centre of mass - powpowpowpowpowpow-reload-powpwopowpowpowpow-reload etc.

Perhaps some people joined police forces, who should have been working at desks or on construction jobs. Of course we all know that happens and these are the ones who get fellow police officers killed.

Once the shooting is over, show a great deal of remorse, then private, party-hearty that night - with close, trustworthy friends, of course.




The military found way back when that about 4% of infantry soldiers have a psychopathic streak and can willingly shoot another person the rest can't. So the use of dummy's for bayonet training and silhouettes for shooting. Then blanks for training against other soldiers helps over come this. Also painting the enemy as sub human, what there will do to your kin if they get there hands on them helped. The strange thing now days is with Islamic fighters the sub human thing is true so no need for propaganda. They do that with their own medial releases.

Same with Police. There no time needed to get psychological about it, it is already there. LEA & security agency's in the US question survivors of shootings where the good guy had the drop on the bad guy but bad guy raised gun and shot good guy. There were on two reasons in order of priority 1) Just could not bring themselves to shot another human. 2. Worried about the treatment they would receive from the legal system and their departments afterwards. A lot of Agencies changed their training and how they dealt with their own after a shooting. Those that enlightened their after shoot treatment of officers retained more than lost those officers. Reversed the loss rate.

Daryl, it sounds like you organization had the right mind set about Officer Involved Shootings. Most use to say if you shoot some one you will loose your house and treated them like lepers. All LEA I know of have for a while trained to shoot until the threat to life or serious injury ceases.

The above is a broad outline there are many more factors that come into play. ie Those who have/develop a combative mind set do better in real life shootings than those who do not. The "OHHH SHIT I'm gunna die, I'm gunna die" is not conducive to good shooting where as the "Your mine arsehole" is.


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DarylS
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: ducmarc]
      #304906 - 07/09/17 07:43 AM

You are absolutely correct, Mark. It is a thankless job - most of the time, but then, that is not the reason a person does this in the first place. for many, it is an overwhelming sense of Loyalty to the Country - as in the moto - Maintienes Le Droit" ie: Maintain The Right.

However, the force as I knew it, has changed - perhaps irrevocably.

Sorry for screwing this topic.

Back to the .45 - Long Live the 1911 .45! Best service weapon there is, in my MOST humble opinion.

Need a bit more? Try a 260gr. Speer jacketed or cast FP if you prefer, with 11.9gr. W630, for 960fps. Worked on a 400 pound black bear - at work, one night - one shot - DRT.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DarylS
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: DarylS]
      #304912 - 07/09/17 09:48 AM

Maybe better yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCOQf12y3kw

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: DarylS]
      #304921 - 07/09/17 03:48 PM

Quote:

Maybe better yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCOQf12y3kw




Yeah that would sort them out.


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Homer
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Rule303]
      #304934 - 07/09/17 06:40 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts!

Whats better than a .45 Auto?
x 2 .45's

LOL!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Rule303]
      #304937 - 07/09/17 07:01 PM

9mm vs more effective rounds. Probably due to cost. Cost of ammunition and cost of training for the run of the mill agent. Easy to train people for the 9mm.

Same for the local coppers. Most never use their firearm in the field. Many are hopeless with a handgun. Not seen as a big priority. The good ones practice and shoot in their own time. I remember one incident when three dozen shots were fired by several police in the old .38 days, some hits, at an assailant in the open on a oval.

Us poor fools in Australia are mostly restricted to the lesser calibres, such as the 9mm, but can use the .38 Super and .357 SIG. The .40's and .45's etc can be owned if one shoots such a sport as metallic silhouette. Forget about anything for civilian self defence ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: NitroX]
      #304944 - 07/09/17 10:55 PM

Another perspective..

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/arti...m_campaign=0917

During the 2017 NRA Annual Meetings in Atlanta, GA, I was signing copies of my book “Handguns for Personal Protection” in the Galco Gunleather booth when an interesting gentleman stopped by. His name was Bill Vanderpool and he is retired from the FBI. As you might imagine, our discussion eventually migrated to the recent return to the 9mm by Vanderpool’s former employer.

When it comes to the terminal performance of modern defensive-handgun ammunition, there’s an ongoing feud stemming from the perceived effectiveness of slow-moving, heavy bullets and faster-moving, lightweight projectiles. The disagreement has raged since World War I, when American G.I.s armed with .45-caliber 1911s faced Germans firing 9mm Lugers. The argument took on new life in the ’50s and ’60s, when some law enforcement agencies adopted a 9mm handgun as a duty weapon. And, in 1985, fuel was added to the fire when the U.S. Army chose the 9mm Beretta as its service pistol. Historians were quick to point out, “We tried this once; remember the failure of the .38 Long Colt on the Moro guerillas?”

However, in 1986 you could say the excrement hit the ceiling-mounted oscillating device. That’s when what has probably become the most talked and written about gunfight—next to the one that occurred 105 years prior at the OK Corral—went down. (Funny thing, no one seemed to care about the terminal performance of the ammunition used at the OK Corral.) The Miami-Dade shootout would drastically change the way law enforcement looked at its handguns and ammunition, and it was all based on the failure of a single 9mm 115-grain Silvertip bullet to instantly stop a bad guy. Ironically, given the nature of the hit, this was an unrealistic expectation anyway.

But, back to Bill Vanderpool. He was assigned to the FBI’s Firearms Training Unit at Quantico for more than 10 years. He started the FBI’s Ballistic Research Program, and as he proudly claims, “It has grown into the finest facility of its kind in the world.” Given Vanderpool’s ties to this program, which was arguably started because of the 9mm, I asked him what he thought about the FBI’s return to that cartridge. He said, “I agree with the change. I think it was a good choice. It is easier to shoot accurately than heavier calibers.” He added that, “Technical advances have resulted in very efficient bullets. Forty-S&W pistols are usually 9mms with bigger bores. The nines have proven to hold up better.”

This surprised me for several reasons. For one, Vanderpool is an old guy. No disrespect intended, but he is after all retired, and, well, he is kind of old. Old guys tend to side with the slow-and-heavy bullet crowd. Secondly, as a retired FBI agent Vanderpool has countless friends still carrying the badge and he has a tremendous amount of devotion to the agency. For him to support a switch to a handgun firing the cartridge that arguably, started it all might seem strange.

Vanderpool pointed out that, “Proponents of the heavier calibers were concerned, but I believed it was more a matter of bullet construction than caliber. I actually carry a nine; a SIG Sauer P239 usually. I own two .357 SIGs and have killed a mountain lion and two bears with one. For formal work—that is when a smaller gun is needed—I carry a SIG P230.” He continued, offering “The 9mm Winchester Silvertip, which didn’t penetrate enough during the Miami shootout, was replaced with a Winchester 147-grain hollowpoint subsonic, which worked well in 9mm. Until then, expansion was considered the most important factor in a round, assuming a target was facing the shooter squarely…After Miami, much more consideration was given to penetration.”


Ballistic engineers have figured out how to use the velocity of the 9 mm in conjunction with modern bullet-construction techniques to build ammo that is up to FBI standards.

It’s that emphasis on penetration which has brought us to where we are today. To be considered for duty, the FBI mandates—among other things—that the bullet must penetrate at least 12 inches in 10-percent ordnance gelatin, and it must do so even when encountering a wide array of barriers. For 30 years, bullet engineers have been working toward that goal. Today many loads for police duty cartridges meet that benchmark. By going with the 9mm, the FBI gets the terminal performance it desires, with more capacity, in a handgun that’s easier, and faster, to shoot accurately.

There are many schools of thought when it comes to the suitability of various defensive-handgun cartridges. Some argue on the side of caliber, some expansion, some energy and others momentum. But velocity matters; it is the element of the equation that allows a bullet to expand, penetrate and do its work. It’s a documented fact that the .357 Mag. is better at stopping fights than a .38 Spl. The only difference between these two cartridges is velocity and this velocity advantage is what allows the 9mm to perform on par with larger, slower-caliber cartridges. The reality is there is such a minute difference in the terminal performance between the 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, that the interface between the shooter and the handgun, ammunition capacity and shot placement (accuracy) matter more. It would seem it has taken bullet engineers about 30 years to level the playing field between these cartridges, and it has taken the FBI about the same amount of time to realize the obvious.

After our discussion, I thanked Vanderpool for his service and he told me he’d just completed a book of his own, and a publisher had agreed to pick it up. The working title is, “Is The Line Ready?” and it is a history of the FBI’s firearms and training. A man who very likely knows the story better than anyone wrote it—and he prefers to carry a 9mm.

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Grenadier
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Ripp]
      #304968 - 08/09/17 06:11 AM

The .40 S&W was developed for the FBI and to their specifications. Today, popularity of the .40 S&W, especially in law enforcement, is primarily a result of the FBI adopting it. I wonder what will happen to the .40 S&W now that the FBI has abandoned it.

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DarylS
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Homer]
      #304982 - 08/09/17 10:05 AM

Quote:

G'Day Fella's,

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm Donuts!

Whats better than a .45 Auto?
x 2 .45's

LOL!
Homer




What's better than that>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tEYcUSQDyw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwTLB-etrx4

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rule303
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Ripp]
      #304997 - 08/09/17 07:52 PM

OK. Vanderpool should know what he is talking about however, if I have understood what is said correctly, there is a massive fly in the ointment. He claims that velocity is needed. The current 9mm service ammo is subsonic and about the same velocity as the 40cal, so given bullets of the same construction the 40 should still be better.

As I said early if you use +P ammo in a polymer frame pistol it tends to torque twist up to the right and takes longer to bring back onto target than the 40. So what have I missed.


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Postman
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Rule303]
      #305000 - 08/09/17 08:22 PM

As the drag racers say: "The only substitute for cubic inches is more cubic inches!"

Pistols don't generally push the velocity very high, and bullet expansion is a function of velocity x construction/design. Fancy expanding bullets don't offer any guarantee that they will do what the advertising claims, aka, expand not too fast, but not too slow, or not at all. By comparison, rifle bullet construction is difficult enough, even where there is a tremendously broader velocity performance envelope to play with. A fully expanded .300 Win Mag traveling a full 50% faster does not offer the same benefit as an unexpanded .450NE when it comes to making a big deep hole in something.

A big bore pistol like a .45 ACP doesn't need to depend on engineering trickery and the vagracies of nature to provide effective terminal ballistics because it already is where it needs to be.

Controllability? Sure, a 9mm may be easier to control than a .45ACP, and it may also hold more cartridges in the magazine, but you just may need a bunch of extra shots to put down an assailant whereas a .45ACP will do the job NOW.....

I submit to you that for me, I wouldn't consider anything other than a .45 ACP combined with rigourous training. A .44 special would also work but the double action of a revolver is a factor to overcome in that case. Go big, or go home.

I qualify my opinion by fully and thankfully admitting in this case that it is based on many years of theory, for I have never shot for, nor am ever likely to be in the awful position of having to shoot to save my life. I grew up reading Jeff Cooper, and others who did have direct experience with these matters though. Hatcher also did extensive testing on the subject using things such as cadavers and live animals, and my belief is that time and pistol bullet engineering marvels have not appreciably changed the game - pistol velocity is still as slow as it ever was.

Edited by Postman (08/09/17 08:32 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Postman]
      #305005 - 08/09/17 10:07 PM

One thing that seems to be forgotten in the analysis between various rounds. Same principle as in big bores for dangerous game hunting.

It takes more skill, experience or training to shoot a big bore well. Whether a .45 or a .450.

It is more costly as well.

So the argument goes, it is easier to train the run of the mill shooter with a 9mm or a 5.56.

As a result they will shoot better. The argument is, isn't it better they hit the target with a 9mm or a 5,56 than miss with a .45 or a .450?

Assuming they CAN shoot better, have had adequate training, and CAN hit the target well.

If you DON'T hit the target perfectly, it is FAR better to have a near miss on the kill spot with a .45 or .450 than a 9mm or a 5.56.

And it seems to me, the run of the mill still can't shoot well. And THAT is the real problem. The lack of skill, training and expertise. If that is provided, they COULD use the .45.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DarylS
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: NitroX]
      #305017 - 09/09/17 03:50 AM

Lately, have been playing with 900fps to 1,000fps 220gr. SWC loads using .44 SPL cases, in my 4" .44mag.

Lots of fun to shoot, very accurate and easy to hit with, shooting DA. I very rarely shoot single action with it & have no difficulty hitting quickly, with DA.

With my .38 Police Positive, I never shoot single action, yet hitting 10" plates at 100 meters is easy, shooting DA.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: NitroX]
      #305049 - 10/09/17 01:06 AM

I agree with your comments John I think the average run-of-the-mill is not that great of a pistol shot from what I see at the range and talking to other people... I also think there's no denying the power advantage of 45 over at 9 I remember years ago in competitions seeing who could shoot the fastest and accurately shooting bowling pins and the 45 with completely blow them off the table where the nine would just tip them over you have to shoot them again and again to get them to roll off the table.. there's also Sunny to being able to get on target quicker with a nine I agree with that as well ...in the end you just have to pick the one you want and go with it... I switch around calibers all the time depending on what I'm trying to accomplish and possibly defend against

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: FBI-unlearns-history-9mm-vs-45..interesting article [Re: Ripp]
      #305053 - 10/09/17 02:14 AM

I failed to write what I wanted.

To put it more succintly.

The comparison is between shooting badly with a .45 versus shooting well with a 9mm. It is a big assumption that suddenly people will shoot the 9mm well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (10/09/17 07:40 PM)


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