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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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Heelerau
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Reged: 31/01/17
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Loc: Australia
Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle
      #304198 - 18/08/17 10:14 PM

Gents have been working on this old rifle for awhile, it is Forsyth style rifling in .72 I am using a .71 mould at the moment with heavy denim patch. Have just made up some patch strips of heavy denim with Dutch Schoultzs' balistol and water mix, 7 to 1 by volume water to balistol. The patch strip are now drying and I will be giving her a work out on the bench Sunday. Last time out I was getting about a 5 inch group at 50 yards off the bench. The bore was a bit rusty when I first got her and have been cleaning it up by shooting and the bore is coming along nicely. Charge is 120 grains of Fg Goex Black, and is surprisingly comfortable to use . I have to use a short starter to get the patched ball down, and to date have been using mink oil patch lube. I am hoping the soluble oil water mix will be a lot better. I have also fitted a nice new platinum lined cone. I am not expecting target accuracy from the old girl but maybe 3 inches or so, will keep posting results as they come along. Not much information out there on the net re shooting these classic English ounce rifles

Cheers

Gordon

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #304331 - 21/08/17 11:25 AM

Shot a 4 inch group with my .72 English hunting rifle using now 4 1/2 drams of Fg and Dutch Schoultze patch lube, 7 parts water to 1 part ballistol and dried over night !! Old girl is starting to cook with gas, will have to tap the rear sight over a tad more and she will be dead on . I was a 5 shot group. The bore is really starting to slick up nicely. Range was 50 m off the bench. Recoil is still not to bad.~~

Cheers

Gordon

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #304357 - 22/08/17 03:16 AM

Thanks for writing this up, Gordon.

Generally, the trouble with the Shultz dry-lubed method, is the fouling buildup shot after shot as there is no moisture to keep the fouling soft.

Some State's-Side shooters have used this system for match shooting where they clean between shots anyway, due to the time between shots, as in chunk or the turkey plank shoot.

For a hunting rifle, I'd have no part of that system & would use an oil or grease, such as Neetsfoot oil, Mink oil/grease.

If it works for you, then stay with it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #304374 - 22/08/17 01:00 PM

Daryl, I will try next time with a card over powder and a greased felt wad and see how that will go. That might overcome the fouling and make loading few subsequent shots do able, currently I am using a steel range rod, so ver valid point about the fouling. I am wondering if they may have used greased wads as part of the load originally. Trying will at least see if it will work ok. I had fired wads with the early shots when I had just the under sized ball mould and was using leather from riggers gloves basically just to start slicking up the bore. The early groups were understandably poor.

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #304388 - 23/08/17 02:27 AM

A grease wad, capable of being blended with the powder flame, will certainly help. Card wads will prevent the powder flame from melting the lube ball (flattened disk) and softening the powder fouling.

This is how paper patched slugs are loaded for BL Ctg. matches. This allows the powder flame to melt the lubed disk combine with the fouling to keep the fouing soft.

I've only used wax paper disk wads with my lube balls in the past, however Ctg. Curl here at NE has used the bee brood foundation in his Paper patched bullet'd loads to perfect success.

A bee-brood foundation beeswax disk was is placed on the powder, then a lube wad or ball of it (BP fouling bullet lube - NO ALOX) is run down or a ball or dropped onto the disk of Beeswax, then the patched ball or bullet loaded.

Personally, with a muzzleloader, I'd simply use an oil or greased patch.

Using a range rod with jag on the front and scrubbing the bore with red Scotch Brite will slick up the bore quite quickly. A light oil on the Scotch Brite 'patch' will lift the 'scrubbings' and hold them in the patch.

Having to load the disk and lube ball, for me, complicated the otherwise easy job of loading.

Beeswax/Vaseline mixed 60:40 to 50:50 will make you a good lube. This mixture has worked well for me.

Paraffin wax with neetsfoot oil was not as good. Beeswax and Olive Oil has also worked, but not as well as Vaseline and beeswax.

Needing wads of any sort complicates loading that should be quite simple, as in greased patch and ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #305465 - 17/09/17 07:44 PM

Gents, look like the greased wad works fine, 12 shots, last shot loaded as easily as the first. Hit a reasonable small swinging gong at 50 yes ever time I took a bead on it, looks like the sight adjustment worked fine to. Still will bench a proper group when I get back from work in a few weeks.

cheers
gordon

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #306697 - 22/10/17 08:18 PM

Gentlemen, card over powder, thick greased hard felt wad (lard) Dutch's dry patch mix 7 to 1 by volume balistol and water, thick denim patch. 4 1/2 drams of Fg. No issues getting the first shot off, cleaned the vent with a pipe cleaner and snapped a couple of caps off. Platinum lined cones can be a bit temperamental till you get to know them. First and third shots off the bench low, but finished up with a nice 9 ring group at 50m. 12:00 hold in the black, just need to touch the rear sight to the left a tad and it is bang on. She really loves the greased felt wad, and am ver pleased with the result. Still have to reset the under rib and get a set of j hook slings hook things to go with a new sling. Just about ready to make meat P1020775 by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr

Edited by Heelerau (22/10/17 10:08 PM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #306701 - 23/10/17 04:22 AM

Looks like it is coming in.

Gordon, will a little less powder bring the group up to the sights, or a little more? Sometimes rifles react differently to increased or decreased charges. Much depends on stock shape, recoil, and ball speed.

I found in my 14 bore, that 2f and 3F produced the same speeds, but 2F was easier on the patches. In it, more powder increases elevation.

I see you are using FG - what make?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #306708 - 23/10/17 08:12 AM

Coming along very nicely, a slight sight adjustment & you'll certainly be in business!
I can understand that the first shot (fowler) can be different, but No 3 shot really puzzles me though?
I'm only a beginner with BP; could a not so strong primer or say a slightly different patch thickness affect the shot to that extent?
Certainly ready for field use that's for sure!

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #306711 - 23/10/17 08:46 AM

Daryl, I started off with 3 drams of Fg (Goex) and that shot down near the 1 and 2 ring, I progressivly increased the charge by 1/2 dram and that has brought the point of impact up to where it is now at the point of aim. I have thought to stay with Fg because of the barrels age. I could still obtain a tighter ball as this one is .71, the other thing is trying a greased patch instead of the Balistol and Water that I am currently using. I will try a greased patch first. The bore seems to be polishing up nicely, the few little patches of rust are now gone and the rifle loads easily. The patches come out quite undamaged. I will weigh the balls next time as well. I am not sure ultimately what sort of accuracy to expect from this rifle as there are no others really reporting on theirs, and next to nothing on the net generally on this type of rifle. I just had another look at Taylor's rifle on the ALR, looks like I still have a bit of work to do.
93, I am throwing charges from a flask, but it might be more to do with the patch thickness and lubrication. I am using old jean denim so there may be a little inconsistency re the thickness.

Cheers

Gordon

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

Edited by Heelerau (23/10/17 08:49 AM)

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Wayne59
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #306715 - 23/10/17 11:18 AM

Just out of curiosity how thick is your blue jean material. JMHO but I have found that a larger ball and thinner material make for a better group. If you are using old cut up blue jeans you might find that the thickness of the material varies depending on wear. worn blue jeans are full of abrasives( from the laundry soap and what ever else they have come into contact with) and the same material used to slick up your bore may wear your bore out prematurely.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #306720 - 23/10/17 12:10 PM

I find the rear thigh material and front and rear calf material is usually true. I guess it depends on what the wearer did while wearing them. The wear patterns of a horse rider will differ.

Gordon, I would try straight greased patch. The wad you are using is why the (likely) thin dry patches are not burning up.

If you are happy loading it this way (wad and dry patch) - stay with it.

Your accuracy is improving all the time - familiarity and improving bore condition certainly helps.

Scotch Brite square cut(red suggested), on a tight jag, run with light oil up and down the bore will polish the bore nicely yet not hurt the rifling.

I personally use, more often than not, brand new material that I buy by the yard or meter. Denim, in 10 ounce (.022") or 12 ounce.

My 14 bore likes the 12 ounce (.030"), but it has rougher bore than normal due to the poor reaming job when it was made. It feels smooth, always has, but the cross reaming marks are still easily seen on the top of the lands. The grooves are smooth.

I thought you noted having to aim at the top of the black - thus, it was shooting low.

I suspect the 3rd shot that went low, had been aimed at the middle, same with the 1st shot, rather than aimed higher.

My 14 bore puts the first, clean bore shot into the group at 100 yards, with it's hunting load.

I figured this was normal for large bore rifles.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #306742 - 24/10/17 09:19 AM

Gents, you are right about how jeans wear, as I am a horseman its the front of the jeans , I have to use. I need to get to spotlight with my mic and see what they have. New denim there seems a bit thin.
Realistically I should get a mould from England that is a bit tighter fit, but will continue as I am for the moment. I have both neatsfoot and mink oil, so will try them. I had used the mink oil but the bore was somewhat rougher then. I have been using the scotchbright and oil and it has improved things immensely.
As I said on the ALR pity we have no elk or moose down under. May go and give some buff ago in the Northern Territory one day.
There must be a bunch of these rifles out there in use, particularly in North America, but so little information about loads, even in some of my period hunting books. Mostly just mention hardened balls, not a lot of discussion on loads.

Cheers

Gordon

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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Wayne59
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #306746 - 24/10/17 11:55 AM

Seems like everybody has their own favorite lube receipt. Mine is 1/3 bee's wax 1/3 Vaseline and 1/3 peanut oil. use it in Bp and light smokeless loads. This was given to me by an old mold maker and it works great. I was told that the peanut oil raises the flash point.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #306747 - 24/10/17 12:10 PM

Gordon would not have trouble with this, but here in BC, mixtures with beeswax or other stiffeners are too bloody hard in the fall or spring, let alone winter time.

That lube sounds just fine, Wayne and fairly thin.

For a bullet lube using black powder, there is nothing wrong with 60% Beeswax 40% Vaseline, mixed by volume. If too thin for your climate, then try 70/30. The more beeswax in ratio to oil, the thicker the lube.

The 60:40 mix worked for me very well in BP ctg. as well as grooved lubricated bullets in my .45 Longrifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #307582 - 10/11/17 08:50 PM

Daryl,
had a think about sighing error, first shot was a bit low, then made sure is took a ver full sight, its a bit tricky I now realise as the sight notch is a little wide, still the same load as before, as I have not greased up some more patches. I did not have to wipe between shots as she really likes the greased felt wads. I did knock the rear sight a tad to the left and now she is truly shooting to POI. Next time will try a different patch lube, the bore continues to improve. I won't increase the powder charge, I am at the limit of my powder flask, but may consider working up some FFg charges. I do find the Fg ver comfortable even off the bench. I guess I am a bit windy about using the finer grade of powder.72 FBG 50m Bench by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

Edited by Heelerau (10/11/17 08:52 PM)

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #308722 - 06/12/17 11:02 PM

Today, I refinished the rifles stock, looks like it once had the wrist chequered but has had so much use it is worn away to only a faint mark or two. Someone had varnished the stock so I wiped it clean with steel wool and acetone, then over the steaming kettle to raise the grain only, l have not tried to remove any dings or nicks as they are all part of the story. I have now given it a few coats of of hand rubbed pale boiled linseed and gum turpentine and it has come up a treat. The wood is ver plain but has a lovely colour. Lovely soft feel to the stock and it is thirsty. I would say this rifle has had a long hard career and if only it could speak of the adventures its been part of. I have a nice sling and j hook sling swivels coming so that should sort her out nicely. Looking forward to one day taking her out after game. P1020812 by Gordon Hazel, on P1020810 by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #309578 - 28/12/17 11:43 AM

Gents, have now fitted a nice sling with J hood swivels, guessing the sling was originally probably secured to the points with rawhide thonging, but I think these hook swivels will do nicely. Hard to get, got these from Dixie Gun Works. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all

Cheers

P1020843 by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #309610 - 29/12/17 05:29 AM

Merry Christmas and hope you have a GREAT New Year.
Nice rifle - really feels good to get her working again, I'll bet.

Yes - can make out a line of the checkering. I do need my bro to checker my old lady's wrist - although she is much younger than your's by likely 130 years.

Nice!

Edited - Taylor is shooting 82gr. 2F in his Joseph Lang 16 bore rifle - managed close to a 2 1/2" x 2 1/2" group at 100 meters with it.
Also - I should note, I discovered that 2f gave higher velocties but also lower pressures than did 3F in my 14 bore rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (29/12/17 05:37 AM)

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #313574 - 06/03/18 07:05 PM

Gentlemen,
an offhand target shot at 50 yards last Thursday, fairly windy conditions. Trigger being a crisp 10 to 13 lbs pull, I found I was running out of wind when squeezing off. Still using 4 1/2 drams of Fg, will get around to trying the FFg next time. Loaded off the body with flask, balls not weighed, just eyeballed . First shot is a little low, always is for some reason. I did fire a fouler, just a felt wad to clear her sinuses, after snapping several caps that seemed to work fine, just a slight hang on the first shot with ball. I will get used to that trigger eventually. After my lovely double set triggers on various rifles it is a bit rude !!!P2270059Shot with Hollis by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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cordite
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #313583 - 07/03/18 03:35 AM

Looking good. It will be very rewarding to take some game with that fine old rifle.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #313586 - 07/03/18 04:22 AM

Gordon - that will make a GREAT Pig rifle.

4 1/2 drams should work well on scrubs, brumbies and Sambar, too.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Longknife
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #313755 - 10/03/18 02:37 AM

10 to 13 lb trigger pull???? I believe if you lightened that up a bit your scores would improve!!!?

--------------------
Longknife

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Longknife]
      #314312 - 22/03/18 08:28 AM

Long knife you are likely as not quite right, but this group is about the same off the bench, I still need more work on the load.

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

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Heelerau
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Re: Isaac Hollis and Son 12 Bore Rifle [Re: Heelerau]
      #319183 - 19/08/18 04:06 PM

Gentlemen, had opportunity to try 4 1/2 drams of FFg this time, first shot actually hit pretty much where I was aiming at 50yds off the bench. She fairly roars now, makes my ears ring on discharge and the recoil is now quite substantial, more in line with what I would have expected. An 8 ring group, so I guess minute of tigers head. I don't think I will get much better out of her at this stage as I suspect she was set up for short range jungle work. [image]P8180057 by Gordon Hazel, on Flickr[/image]

--------------------
Keep your horse well shod and your powder dry !

Edited by Heelerau (19/08/18 04:09 PM)

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