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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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500Boswell
.400 member

Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1276
Loc: Queensland

Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette
#303045 - 14/07/17 05:27 PM

I grew up on a family farm ,and there were various things that pissed my father off ,one was not riding a horse properly ,holding the reins correctly etc, he only had the patience to teach one of us everything ,which was my older brother who was five years older than me ,the rest of us were expected just to know, or else we got an angry earful .
Another thing he hated seeing ,from being in the National Service and from his own father ,was not using your thumb and fore finger to work a bolt rifle, so i quickly learnt .When i watch You Tube videos of people shooting it just makes me cringe ,when you see shooters using the palm of their hand, their entire hand ,five fingers [not even consistently ] to operate a bolt action ,[especially U.S shooters who are acknowledged as a Nation of rifleman ],even some U.S Army snipers ,who are supposed to be Professionals displaying Bubba bolt manipulation ,i dont know why it isnt considered important ,from the point of safety ,efficiency and professionalism .

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Well_Well_Well
.333 member

Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 309
Loc: Australia

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: 500Boswell]
#303047 - 14/07/17 07:00 PM

I suspect you may be overthinking it, but for military based organisations, rate of fire was as important as accuracy, whereas for most of us, it isn't.

Either way, I'm not sure it's a big deal.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#303057 - 15/07/17 04:41 AM

I was a competitive high power rifle shooter for over 50 years. Part of the course of fire is rapid fire, ten shots, standing to sitting in 60 seconds at 200 yards and ten shots, standing to prone in 70 seconds at 300 yards. Anything that simplifies cycling the bolt is a plus in such situations. I have used my forefinger and thumb to cycle the bolt for most of my competitive career. I also use it in the hunting field, where it is equally as effective. I once put four shots from my .505 into a running buffalo, three of which could be covered with a playing card. He went down so suddenly that his nose plowed up the ground.

Far less understandable for me are the bolt rifle shooters who take the rifle down from their shoulder after each shot and cycle the action holding the rifle at waist level. This is not only unnecessary, it is a waste of valuable time, since the rifle has to be mounted to the shoulder after each shot and the sights reacquired. This could prove fatal in a tight spot with dangerous game.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: xausa]
#303059 - 15/07/17 06:18 AM

I was quite relieved, after reading this post, to know that I have been using the proper thumb and forefinger bolt manipulation method my whole life. It would be hard to change after so many years if I had been doing it incorrectly.

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Rule303
.450 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5086
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: cordite]
#303064 - 15/07/17 09:12 AM

Thumb and forefinger is how I was taught and keeping the rifle at the shoulder. Probably not a big issue except for in the military, when working over a mob of pigs and most definitely in the situations described by xausa. So to make sure you are not caught out it pays to always do things the right way.

Edited by Rule303 (15/07/17 09:13 AM)

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: 500Boswell]
#303067 - 15/07/17 12:26 PM

When I was on active duty in the Marine Corps, I was constantly told that "we didn't do it that way in 'The Old Corps'". Well, times change and so do shooting practices. When I went through recruit training, we were told to shoot prone with our legs in a "vee" position behind us with the heels of our boots flat on the ground. Later, when I was a team shooter, a different prone position was taught, with the left leg straight behind and in line with the body and the right leg flexed to the point that the right elbow could sometimes be braced against the right knee, a much more stable position.

What makes sense for the SMLE might not make sense for the Springfield or even the P14 Enfield, which my .505 was based on. The SMLE is cock on closing, and requires a certain amount of force to close the bolt, while the Springfield and my modified P14 are both cock on opening, so that virtually no effort is required to carry out the same action. What raw recruits are taught, soldiers who have only a minimum of training before going into combat, might make sense for them, but not for experienced shooters who put literally thousands of rounds down range per year.

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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
Loc: fla

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: xausa]
#303087 - 16/07/17 11:17 AM

my dad was on the navy target team during korea and tought all us kids that way and we never dropped the rifle down while cycling. i learned to sit back on the bolt so as not to get it in the face as a ten year old working the model 70 of his.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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ducmarc
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Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: ducmarc]
#303088 - 16/07/17 11:23 AM

also learned how to hold a 1911 and a high standard hd military without rakeing the web of your hand. he still at 83 shoots one handed with his left hooked in his belt in back. shoots better than i do now that he had eye surgery.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Vladymere
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Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: ducmarc]
#303090 - 16/07/17 01:15 PM

I one read that British troops where required to fire 10 aimed shots in one minute with their Lee Enfield rifles, which requires a magazine reload. Experienced troops could get 15 aimed rounds off in that one minute period.

There training was to maintain the stock contact to the shoulder while cycling the bolt, to cycle the bolt using the thumb and index finger and to use the ring finger to pull the trigger.

Vlad

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HeymSR20
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Loc: Scotland

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: Vladymere]
#303093 - 16/07/17 07:13 PM

I was watching a video recently from the African hunters school which advocated dropping the stock down for a reload. 2 reasons. 1) it gives you a much greater field of vision and also lets you see in the corner of your vision that the empty is out and new one is in, and 2) it makes you remount and aim in one flowing motion - just like a shotgun.

I can absolutely see the logic - with a shotgun I Shoot as but hits shoulder and would do the same with a rifle on a quick shot.

Reloading in shoulder might be quick, but does it get an accurate shot. Saying that I shoot the old English style with barrel up and tip of barrel into line of site onto target and then lift butt. I have military friends who keep butt in shoulder and then lift rifle to the target. They shoot shotguns the same way.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5086
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: HeymSR20]
#303115 - 17/07/17 05:29 PM

Quote:

I was watching a video recently from the African hunters school which advocated dropping the stock down for a reload. 2 reasons. 1) it gives you a much greater field of vision and also lets you see in the corner of your vision that the empty is out and new one is in, and 2) it makes you remount and aim in one flowing motion - just like a shotgun.

I can absolutely see the logic - with a shotgun I Shoot as but hits shoulder and would do the same with a rifle on a quick shot.

Reloading in shoulder might be quick, but does it get an accurate shot. Saying that I shoot the old English style with barrel up and tip of barrel into line of site onto target and then lift butt. I have military friends who keep butt in shoulder and then lift rifle to the target. They shoot shotguns the same way.

Makes some sense, if time allows.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: Rule303]
#303117 - 17/07/17 07:11 PM

Being left handed and not interested in using left handed bolt rifles I have to drop the rifle from the shoulder to load and totally agree with the logic advocated by the African hunters school.

I have shot a lot of animals in my lifetime and have never felt handicapped by being a left handed shooter. It is very true that dropping the rifle from the shoulder and taking a little more time to load while getting a clear view of the scene is better than just racking the bolt back and forward and firing almost like an auto. Most of us know just how successful auto users usually are on game, many have the mentality that while there is lead in the air there is hope.

Careful and considerate loading, aiming and shot release will always produce better results and in fact lead to a much higher percentage of one shot kills.

Very rare that a hunter is charged and if it is by one of the big cat family, the hunter is only going to get one shot away anyway so has to make that a telling one. A double may give him two shots but if he doesn't score with the first, chances are diminished with a second anyway unless the hunter has the balls to get low and shoot it off the end of his barrels.

As for charging large game, again a well aimed telling shot is going to be better than a barrage of ill timed and aimed shots if the hunter indeed has the time to take them.

Talking of cleanly dispatching charging cats, the video of Ronnie Kraus (I think that is his name from the sound track of the video)shows exactly how it should be done. One good clean shot from his bolt gun as he kneels right down on the ground and shoots it on the end of his barrel. He couldn't afford to miss like all his companions did as the furious male lion charged in. Ronnie certainly didn't start shooting early and try to rapidly reload on the shoulder.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: HeymSR20]
#303125 - 18/07/17 09:47 AM

Quote:

I was watching a video recently from the African hunters school which advocated dropping the stock down for a reload. 2 reasons. 1) it gives you a much greater field of vision and also lets you see in the corner of your vision that the empty is out and new one is in, and 2) it makes you remount and aim in one flowing motion - just like a shotgun.

I have heard these arguments before, but my experience in skeet shooting refutes them. In shooting doubles at skeet, the targets are going in opposite directions and having the gun shouldered has absolutely no effect on acquiring the second target. Moreover, suppose you should notice that the case has failed to eject. I can assure you that at that point it is too late to do anything about it. In skeet shooting you would be allowed another shot, but not in dangerous game hunting.

In shooting international skeet, where the target is moving in the range of 65 mph (as opposed to 50 mph in American skeet) plus the shooter must start at the low gun position and is not allowed to start raising his gun until the target is out of the house, if the shooter took the time to unshoulder and reshoulder the gun, the second target would already be out of bounds before he acquired it. Moreover, since there is up to a three second delay in releasing the target after it is called for, the shooter must respond to the target, not the other way around, reducing even further the time available for the first shot. Given the speed of the target (roughly 95 fps.) and the distance to "out of bounds" (40.3 meters or 132 feet), the shooter has only about 1.5 seconds, minus reaction time, to shoot both targets.

Most experienced skeet shooters, like most experienced rifle shooters, shoot with both eyes open, so the only blockage of the field of view is that caused by the gun barrel. Unlike skeet shooting, shifting targets is not involved, except in the unlikely event of being charged by more than one animal at the same time. I once was involved with a pack of Cape hunting dogs who had just made a kill on fenced in private property. I emptied my Model 70 .300 H&H at them and killed four with five shots, all but the first one running shots, and I can assure you that I did not unmount and remount my rifle between shots.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5086
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: eagle27]
#303129 - 18/07/17 08:15 PM

Eagle27, I do my best shooting with semi autos as I do not have to remove the firearm from the shoulder or break my grip.

Bolt guns, unless I am up close and shooting over/through open sights or using an Aimpoint I shoot one eye closed or squinting. Hand guns, semi autos, lever actions, shotguns I shoot with both eyes open. Mind you I have never used a semi auto or lever action with a magnification scope.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: Rule303]
#303140 - 19/07/17 04:38 PM

Quote:

Eagle27, I do my best shooting with semi autos as I do not have to remove the firearm from the shoulder or break my grip.

Bolt guns, unless I am up close and shooting over/through open sights or using an Aimpoint I shoot one eye closed or squinting. Hand guns, semi autos, lever actions, shotguns I shoot with both eyes open. Mind you I have never used a semi auto or lever action with a magnification scope.

I use a semi-auto 22RF and 12G shotgun myself so don't hold all semi-auto users to account

For some reason many I have known who use semi-auto larger calibre rifles, sporters or military style, for hunting deer etc., seem to like putting a lot of shots down range in the hope of hitting something. Most semis are accurate enough but the availability of a fast action and plentiful cartridges to hand often takes precedence over carefully aiming each shot.
I have on occasion shot multiple animals deer and feral goat from a mob and never felt handicapped by a bolt action, left handed and all as I am. By taking the rifle down from the shoulder to reload I have time to think and observe and figure out which animal I'll take next.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5086
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: eagle27]
#303141 - 19/07/17 05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Eagle27, I do my best shooting with semi autos as I do not have to remove the firearm from the shoulder or break my grip.

Bolt guns, unless I am up close and shooting over/through open sights or using an Aimpoint I shoot one eye closed or squinting. Hand guns, semi autos, lever actions, shotguns I shoot with both eyes open. Mind you I have never used a semi auto or lever action with a magnification scope.

I use a semi-auto 22RF and 12G shotgun myself so don't hold all semi-auto users to account

For some reason many I have known who use semi-auto larger calibre rifles, sporters or military style, for hunting deer etc., seem to like putting a lot of shots down range in the hope of hitting something. Most semis are accurate enough but the availability of a fast action and plentiful cartridges to hand often takes precedence over carefully aiming each shot.
I have on occasion shot multiple animals deer and feral goat from a mob and never felt handicapped by a bolt action, left handed and all as I am. By taking the rifle down from the shoulder to reload I have time to think and observe and figure out which animal I'll take next.

Those who spray and pray most often have never been taught fire discipline and sadly need it.

With a mob of pigs going flat out for cover I find I don't have time to take the rifle off the shoulder. Not so much hunting as feral eradication, piglet to full size sow or boar are all in the sights.

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: Rule303]
#303278 - 25/07/17 03:25 PM

I found that looking to see where brass flew, for later reloading use, created a bad habit in me, in bringing the rifle down between shoots to work the bolt. So to catch the brass or watch where it flew.

Realised this, and especially on a hunt, decided to correct this. Used my .22 RF BA and shot repeated magazines on the shoulder. Fixed the problem quite easily and quickly.

As for the thumb and forefinger method of working a bolt, no idea why that is considered superior???

No idea what I use. Have to hold the rifle and see what comes naturally to me. Don't think about it at all. Will give it a try.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
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Loc: Port Chalmers, New Zealand

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: NitroX]
#305886 - 01/10/17 10:42 PM

I don't see the big deal about it. Would probably depend on what position I am in.

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
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Loc: NW Montana

Re: Bolt ''handling'' Etiquette [Re: CarlsenHighway]
#305893 - 02/10/17 12:38 AM

However you do it, practice and do it well.

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