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Lane
.224 member


Reged: 24/05/17
Posts: 34
Loc: Idaho, USA
16 bore for grizzly
      #302011 - 20/06/17 03:40 AM

Hi,
I'm a new member here.
I have a question for those of you who have hunted with bore guns: is an un-hardened ball enough for grizzly or should I use a water quenched wheel weight ball? I am going to be hunting black bears in the next few days in an area that has grizzlies (north Idaho) and I was thinking of keeping one barrel loaded with a hardened ball just in case a grizzly got nasty. I really doubt that the soft balls would lack in penetration but I just thought I would ask. The gun is a 18.5" barreled 16 bore double barrel shotgun I modified into a ball gun for close range bear hunting and protection. The Shells are loaded with 100 grains of fffg Schuetzen powder a 1/8" card wad a 1/2" lube cushion wad another 1/8" card wad and a cloth patched .655" ball.

Thanks
lane


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bigskybound
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Loc: Arkansas
Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Lane]
      #302042 - 20/06/17 12:44 PM

Sounds like plenty of "oomph", but am curious what the experts have to say.

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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: bigskybound]
      #302045 - 20/06/17 01:38 PM

I would use the WW balls - straight WW - no need for quenching. At Brinel 10 to 13, they will be fine. Quench if you want, I'm sure it is not necessary. They are not that sturdily built. Muscle - absolutely, but light of bone for their size.

I put a 14 bore WW ball through a bull moose's leg - high up and it was barely deformed - not riveted at all - close to 3" in diameter.

The moose's bones are much thicker and harder than any bear's leg bones.

Grizzies have bones like a moose calf - about 2" or less in diameter. Ribs like deer ribs - at least the grizzly carcass we found exemplified how lightly boned they are. Thick & muscular, but lack of bone mass.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Lane
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Reged: 24/05/17
Posts: 34
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302085 - 20/06/17 11:46 PM

Thanks a lot for your help Daryl. Your patched ball loads for your Husquvarna helped me out a lot in figuring out how to load balls for this gun. I had always wondered about whether or not a patch would stay on a ball shot from a breechloader--obviously they do.

Do any of you have any idea what sort of velocity I may be getting with the load I mentioned above? I don't have a chronograph so I can't measure velocity. In an old Dixie Gunworks catalog it says that a charge of 4 parts lead to 1 part powder (by weight) will get 1670 FPS. I approximately have a 4 to 1 load; the ball weighs about 400 grains if I remember right and the charge is 100 grains. I don't know how close this is in a breechloader I am guessing it could make a difference but I don't know. Also like I said I have only 18.5 inch barrels so I don't know how much that lowers the velocity. I am sure the number and thickness of wads makes a difference to. I am assuming that the wads will increase velocity as I assume they will be pretty effective in sealing the bore especially with a patched ball in a cylinder bore.

Also I have a nearly full gallon can of old "range scrap" in other words old fired pistol bullets mostly cast .38 slugs. Obviously this depends on whether they are home cast or factory cast etc. but are slugs for modern pistols normally harder or softer than wheel weights? I haven't tried casting with them yet so I don't know what to expect from them. I have cast balls for my flintlock rifles and cap & ball revolvers since I was 11 years old I just never concerned myself about hardness before.

Thanks for your help and sorry for all the questions.


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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Lane]
      #302091 - 21/06/17 01:47 AM

Pistol bullets harder than WW usually lead quite badly, as they do not obturate to seal, especially in softer (lower pressure) loads, ie: .38SPL.

Lane, I would use 2F rather than 3F. My 14 bore shows higher velocities with 2f than 3F. Seemingly, all 3F does is increase pressure in the larger bore rifles - at least with the GOEX I used.

100gr. powder would I expect perhaps reach 1,350fps - maybe 1,375fps in a 16 bore, with a good seal due to the wads used. I judged this by what 16 bore ML's & my own 14 bore ML will produces with the "light" charges.

Your load will suffice, however if you are wanting 1,650fps, you are going to have to use about 130gr. to 140gr. of Swiss 1 1/2F.

At some point, the velocity will diminish with more wads, due to increased weight being pushed out, exceeding the value of the better seal.

Also, never be sorry for asking questions. It is how we learn about subjects not covered in text.

Cast bullets from outfits like Laser-Cast, or The Bullet Barn, are usually quite hard. If they are oversize to the handgun groove diameter they are used in, they usually shoot fairly well, but a slightly softer bullet usually shoots more accurately and without leading.

For example, my M29 4" shoots WW bullets into quite small groups out to 100yards using full power loads. Some really hard bullets given to me, measuring .430" shot poorly & showed leading, although they shot a mere 3" wider group, however, that was 50% larger than the groups I was getting with my 275gr. SWC Ohaus mould, also casting .430". The softer bullets were overcome by the pressure to seal & prevent gas cutting, while the harder bullets did not.

Handgun range lead is a mixed bag. One must simply cast them up and see what you've got, using known alloys, like real lead alloy WW (not stick-ons or zinc). The corner of a screw driver can be used for a simple scratch test. This will usually show obvious difference in alloys.

As you do not have rifling, any ball hardness can be used, as long as it is sub-bore size or streak leading will likely appear in the tubes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Lane
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Reged: 24/05/17
Posts: 34
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302097 - 21/06/17 02:32 AM

Thanks for the help again Daryl.

I originally tried 2f but I seemed to get better groups with 3f; also 3f costs half as much as 2f where I am but this is kind of a remote -- backwoods area so it is hard to get anything at all around here for blackpowder stuff let alone at a decent price. I will try 2f again and see what it does.

I have done very little with shotgun loading before this project. What signs of excess pressure are there when loading this sort ammo? I'm using plastic hulls with 209 primers. The hulls seem to hold up well; I have gotten around ten shots out of one hull without any problems. Sometimes a small hole will get melted in the side; I think that is from melted sulfur but I am not sure.

I am packing for the bear trip today along with loading ammo and doing a little testing before I leave tomorrow so I may try the 2f today.


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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Lane]
      #302103 - 21/06/17 04:42 AM

By all means, use what works best. I mentioned using 2F because my results always favored it from .50 calibre on up to an 11 bore fowler with round balls.

10 shots is good - those cases owe you nothing. With some loaders, paper cases (Federal still makes them) work well. You could even try Buffalo Arms brass cases, however they are only 2 1/2". That is what I used for my Husky.

Graff's and others in the States will mail BP right to your door in the States. You have to pay the hazmat fee, so getting some friends together if you don't want a case of powder will help lower the cost. The Hazmat fee is the same for your whole shipment, whether for a single can, a case of 25, or two cases at 50lbs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Lane
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Reged: 24/05/17
Posts: 34
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302164 - 22/06/17 02:15 AM

Thanks for the tip of Grafs for blackpowder Daryl. I have never found a place that will ship powder for anything close to as reasonable a price as them (although I have never checked Track of the Wolf for powder and I'm sure there are other places I have missed). I am going to do some more experimenting with 2f when I get a chance as I would like a little more power and if it has less pressure that would be great although I don't think I am anywhere near too much pressure with that load.

If I get a black bear with the 16 bore I will let you guys know how it works; I have no doubt that at close range that load will kill VERY well.

Thanks for all your help.

Lane


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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Lane]
      #302170 - 22/06/17 02:58 AM

Oh yeah - put the ball in the right place and your work is done - hard or soft will work on most bears.

Most of the guys (who live all over the States) on a BP forum I frequent, order their powder over the phone or on-line get it from Grafs. Graf's will mix different powder granulations in the same order, as in - 4F, 3F, 2F 1F and I think they sell different brands of powder including some of the cheap re-enactment powders, which more guys will not shoot in their muzzleloading guns. Others say it's good.

2F develops considerably less pressure when loaded to the same velocity as 3F. In smaller bores like .45's to .58's, this is really evident by the way the same patches that stand up to 2F at say 1,700fps, fail badly with 3F at 1,700fps.

In my 14 bore rifle, I used to shoot 3 drams of 3F, then for the hunting loads, I'd use 2F as 3F burnt through the patches past 95gr. at 1,350fps. With 2F, I could go right to 1,700fps using 200gr. and the patches were still re-useable.


In the larger bores it takes considerable powder to make the higher speeds. 1,700fps seemed to be about tops, as it took another 130gr. over that, to make 70fps higher speed. I do not, under any circumstances suggest you try that. The 330gr. charge was an error on my part. It lifted me up off the stool I was sitting on, to semi-standing position. I was a lightweight then - only 185lbs. I thought I only had the normal 165gr. hunting charge (1,550fps), but of course while talking to the fellow I was teaching, I got out of sequence and double charged the powder. I guess I proofed that GRRW barrel that day.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302199 - 22/06/17 06:43 PM

Hopefully not an off topic comment.

Daryl, you say a 16 bore with ball is fine for grizzly. But I have seen people been scathing about people that think carrying a 12 gauge shotgun, loaded with slugs or brenneckes, s protection against grizzlys. Any reasons for the difference? Or do you think a 12 gauge is fine as well? I would think a 12 gauge slub load is superior to a 16 bore ball?

Waited a bit on this thread in case the question is a bit off topic.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Grenadier
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: NitroX]
      #302230 - 23/06/17 12:32 AM

I share your concern, John, but I've never hunted the big bears.

I do know that a Fosbery bullet from a Paradox gun is heavier and carries more energy than a slug from a shotgun of the same bore. A true bore rifle will produce even more energy. But a 16 gauge ball will be about the same size in 16 gauge shotgun or bore rifle and it is lighter than slugs or Paradox bullets.

I keep thinking back to the Lewis and Clark expedition and the trouble they had with killing grizzlies with their .54 caliber rifles. I can only imagine how a hard .66 caliber ball from a shotgun would compare to a hard .54 caliber ball from a rifle but I would bet money the rifle ball would hit harder and penetrate deeper.

Quote:

Clark — Sunday, May 5, 1805

"In the evening we saw a Brown or Grisley beare on a sand beech, I went out with one man Geo Drewyer & Killed the bear, which was verry large and a turrible looking animal, which we found verry hard to kill we Shot ten Balls into him before we killed him, & 5 of those Balls through his lights This animal is the largest of the carnivorous kind I ever saw we had nothing that could way him, I think his weight may be stated at 500 pounds.... we had him skined and divided, the oile tried up & put in Kegs for use."




It's enough to give one pause.

--------------------
~


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Grenadier]
      #302233 - 23/06/17 12:37 AM

Quote:

I share your concern, John, but I've never hunted the big bears.




I didn't express an opinion, and was just asking the question. Just interested in experienced answers either pro or con.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Grenadier]
      #302235 - 23/06/17 12:58 AM

A true 16 bore ball weighs 1 oz., 437.5gr.

A 17 bore ball, common THEN for loading in a 16 bore rifle or smoothbore, will run 411gr. in pure lead and Forsyth notes 16 is the minimum for dangerous Indian game, which includes tiger, buffalo and elephant.

Hardened, the ball's weight will be less than presented, by a little less than 20gr. This was "his" minimum.

Personally I would not hesitate to use a hardened 17 bore ball for Taylor's new Joseph Lang rifle, for bear hunting - grizzly or black bear.

I would however, prefer my 14 bore, or my buddy's 11 bore - all loaded with one 'bore' size smaller, hardened balls.

As to the 12 bore Brenneke's use on bears, it is, in my opinion much more suitable for that use, than the use of sub calibre sabot rounds that are loaded with .45 or .50 calibre pistol bullets.

The full sized (close to) hardened round ball will out-penetrate the Brenneke's most likely - I have not tested them, however the large flat nose of the Bren's and riveting due to soft lead will reduce penetration considerably.

If the Brenneke slugs are soft lead as I suspect, the the RB will be much better, however, if driven at similar speeds capable of the round balls with handloads 1,500fps to 1,700fps with smokeless), the factory Brenneke slugs will likely kill black bears more quickly, however that may only be subjective as DRT is DRT.

Lewis and Clark shot patched pure lead round balls and 60gr. of powder (issue ctg.) in their 1803 rifles. The ball weight for them was approximately 210gr. to 220gr. depending on exact size. The military usually used grossly undersized balls.

That is not even close to a suitable load for plains or wooodland grizzlies, in my opinion and is why THEY had trouble killing those bears with them.

The velocity for their issue load for the .54's was approximately 1,050fps.

I would much prefer a hardened 390gr. ball of .65" running some 1,500fps, thanks. That one will likely exit on a broad-size chest shot, and a shot into the chest of a standing bear, would certainly 'chink' the spine.

Now, if you want to talk about BIG grizzlies/browns, like Phil S. runs into in his chosen line of work, I would think 14 bore might be my minimum, but buddy Keith's l1 bore would be a more comfortable carry. A backup wheel-gun like a .460 or .500 S&W would also lend some comfort to that venture.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302238 - 23/06/17 01:41 AM

Thanks, Daryl, that's interesting and useful information.

In reference to the OP, how would you compare loads from "a 18.5" barreled 16 bore double barrel shotgun" shooting balls to round ball loads shot from a 16 bore rifle with a barrel of 24 inches or so?

--------------------
~


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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Grenadier]
      #302252 - 23/06/17 03:17 AM

Probably about 50 or 60fps difference - rifle faster of course, with black powder or smokeless. Just a guess.

We tested a .62 ML rifle against a 20 bore ML smoothbore, using the same diameter balls and powder charges, however the rifle needed thicker patching, of course.

The rifle barrel, although 8" shorter, gave slightly higher speeds. Both were tight loads, needing a ball (short) starter to assist loading. At that time, we did not have a shorter barreled smoothbore to compare equally with the rifle. Now that I do, we having re-tested this comparison, smooth vs. rifled. Due to 'some' velocity loss with the shorter barreled smoothie, the difference will quite likely advantage the rifle even further.

Much likely depends on the powder used - military, vs. high grade sporting powder, I'd expect. Compared to the best BP's of the 1800's, American DeadShot in the States and C&H #6 Rifle Powder in England, our current GOEX is likely equivalent to mil-spec powder of the 1850's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302257 - 23/06/17 04:35 AM

The conservation officers in Alaska use 12 gauge shotguns with slugs to dispatch problem grizzly's.

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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Wayne59]
      #302260 - 23/06/17 04:57 AM

Same in Jasper National Park here.

The thing I do NOT like about the standard Foster slugs, is the hollow base limits weight 1 1/4oz. Feds are the heaviest(best of those), I think and promotes the base flattening out around the front end, disking, I guess you could call it.

The more solid Brenneke and Gualandi slugs seem much 'harder' in this regard.

I have some here that shoot well in my rifled Mossberg, that are labeled "Made in Canada", but it is obvious they used the Gualandi slug.

492gr. conical in shape with hard base attached. 1,610fps - going by the name: Challenger.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302304 - 24/06/17 03:19 AM

imho, there is nothing like the sauvestre slug http://www.sauvestre.com/16-67,303?lang=fr

expensive but worth any cent if you can get it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfpiYVCLhw

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: lancaster]
      #302319 - 24/06/17 10:59 AM

Quote:

imho, there is nothing like the sauvestre slug http://www.sauvestre.com/16-67,303?lang=fr

expensive but worth any cent if you can get it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfpiYVCLhw




Too small in diameter (for me) - why shoot a .45 or .50 cal. bullet from a 12 bore, when you can shoot a .73"?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz7tFrnc1x4

We had the BRI's available from Police Equipment store (Vancouver Island BC) back in the 70's. I bought a bunch and they did shoot well. It was a .50 cal. 440gr. waisted slug in a sabot and I think WW might make and sell them today.

I'd just as soon shoot a hardened round ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lancaster
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302328 - 24/06/17 01:45 PM

Too small in diameter (for me) - why shoot a .45 or .50 cal. bullet from a 12 bore, when you can shoot a .73"?
penetration

understand the problem with soft lead slugs on grizzly is penetration and the sauvestre will not fail in this question. if you like the big diameter the duplex steel monolit would be the right thing http://www.ddupleks-usa.com/products but its only available in 12 ga.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: lancaster]
      #302343 - 25/06/17 12:14 AM

Perhaps, but the Guilandi is 492gr. a conical lead, no plastic, alloyed lead, shoots very well and is running 1,610fps. It will not have expansion problems.

http://www.cabelas.ca/product/1829/challenger-magnum-rifled-slugs-12-gauge

This is the Gualandi - the first one. It is the slug that Challenger is loading in Canada.

http://www.gualandi.it/en/products_slugs/borra_proiettile.html

For me, the accuracy was as shown from the rifled tube. I also tried some of the sabot rounds. they were very expensive and I was not impressed with their accuracy - at all, from my 12 bore rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Cjdawe
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302433 - 27/06/17 09:03 PM

For what its worth I just loaded up a few for my straight rifled Husqvarna, Magtech brass,3 drams FFG pyrodex I had on hand ,under a 12 gauge AA shot cup ,1/2 felt wad under the pure lead ball....truly surprised how well this shot....three shots to 85 yards dead hold ,minute of Moose

I also smoked 5 clays with 7 1/2 bird shot ...pretty versatile gun ,I was thinking about selling it but now not so much !


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DarylS
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Cjdawe]
      #302439 - 28/06/17 01:12 AM

My 13 bore straight rifled Husky barrel was only tried to 30 yards.

At that range, it made about a 2" group with black powder and round ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Lane
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Reged: 24/05/17
Posts: 34
Loc: Idaho, USA
Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: DarylS]
      #302508 - 30/06/17 02:02 AM

Well I didn't get a shot at a bear. The weather was extremely hot for this area and so the bears holed up from about 4:30 or 5:00 in the morning and didn't go to the baits much after first light. Also I didn't have a chance to get the baits out early so it took a couple of days before they started getting much activity. A week earlier and we likely wouldn't have even needed baits as fishermen in the area said they were having bears in camp and everywhere else until a few days before we got there when the weather heated up. So maybe I'll get a chance to try out the 16 bore on a bear this fall.

Are the straight rifled Husqvarnas very common or are they kind of a "rare bird"? I have seen lots of the double smoothbore huskies for very good prices; but I have never seen a straight rifled one. How much do they generally cost?

Cjdawe: That sounds like great accuracy. The farthest I have shot my 16 bore smoothbore to is 50 yards. I can usually get a 6 to 8 inch group of between 10 and 20 shots at that distance.

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Lane


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Cjdawe
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Re: 16 bore for grizzly [Re: Lane]
      #302564 - 30/06/17 09:41 PM

Lane, I guess it was decent ..I expected way less and was quite surprised ,but I have confidence I could definitely hit a Moose with it ,if I ever did hunt it the shot would be no more than 30 -40 my longest shot taken on game was only 100 they usually happen much much closer ...we like to sneak ...I think mine would be a great gun over bait

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