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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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rpeck

Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada

Belgian/German Cape Gun
#301361 - 05/06/17 06:52 AM

Picked up a Cape Gun on trade. Its 16 G (right, front trigger) and 12.17x44 (left). Marked "F and HANDQUET, LIEGE". It has German steel barrels, marked with nice big German Imperial Eagle Crests and "Fluss Stahl Fein." Good rifling and the shotgun barrel is shiny with no dents. Overall its in good condition. Not sure how to load for it but I am told that the 12.17 caliber rounds can be made fairly easily from .348 Win brass.

My question is: Does anyone know a way to date it? Could this be considered an antique (pre-1898) gun in the USA? (In Canada its never an official antique firearm no matter how old it is, because you can still shoot it with a modern 16 ga. shell.)

Edited by rpeck (05/06/17 10:55 PM)

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416rigby
.300 member

Reged: 16/11/05
Posts: 141
Loc: Port Angeles, Washington USA

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: rpeck]
#301369 - 05/06/17 10:03 AM

Nice! In the USA, if it's made prior to 1898 it's considered an antique.

--------------------
"Life's too short to hunt with an ugly gun"

U.S. Coast Guard, retired

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: 416rigby]
#301374 - 05/06/17 01:26 PM

12.17x44 might be the same as Husqvarna's 12.2x44R, which they oft chambered in their side by side, shotgun rifles.

It is the Uro version of the .50/70 US ctg.

Yes-Quite likely .348 brass could be used, but they are quite a bit undersized in the base to .50/70 - they do work, though. As well, shortened .500Nitro brass also worked when shortened, and with the rims punched forward in 4 places for proper headspace due to their thin rims.

Barnes Ctgs. of the World lists measurements on the 12.17x44 Remington M67 ctg. for Sweden and Norway, noting it is the Euro version of the .50/70.

Barnes lists base diameter as .546" and case length as 1.73".

My brand new unfired .348 Winchester brass measured exactly the same, .546". There ya go!

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
.470 member

Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8716
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#301404 - 05/06/17 09:31 PM

very likely a 12,7x44R Swedish, for making brass from .348 WIN see here http://dutchman.rebooty.com/12744r.html

I would think the gun is made in belgium with good german barrels for the swedish market

maybe another good aspirant for making brass could be the PRVI 8x50R Lebel case. just aneal and blowing out! the lebel case is around .542 at the base but in a blackpowder gun this is next to nothing.

I am sure the 16 ga chamber is only for 65 mm/2,5" long shells.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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rpeck

Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: 416rigby]
#301407 - 05/06/17 10:48 PM

Quote:

Nice! In the USA, if it's made prior to 1898 it's considered an antique.

Thanks. Yes, I know about the US cut-off "antique" date. But how do you figure out if this gun is made before 1898?

Edited by rpeck (05/06/17 10:52 PM)

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DarylS
.700 member

Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26488
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: rpeck]
#301420 - 06/06/17 03:11 AM

Here, if it is made prior to 1898 or maybe it's now 1900 & factory ammo is not available, it is an antique and may be owned by anyone [even those (past criminals) barred/banned from owning firearms], no P.A.L. required.
This gun probably fits the category, but further proof would be needed. My 16 bore Husky M20, with straight rifled barrel meant for black powder low and round ball along with the left being a smooth bore was made in 1902, thus is/was a firearm.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: DarylS]
#301431 - 06/06/17 05:41 AM

In the US your gun would just be sold as an antique. It's hard to tell from your pic but I see no Proof marks that would date it any later than 1898. By the way I would slug that bore and pour a chamber cast of the rifle chamber before attempting to make brass.

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bigskybound
.275 member

Reged: 12/06/15
Posts: 55
Loc: Arkansas

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: Wayne59]
#301451 - 06/06/17 01:04 PM

The Belgian proof changed around the mid- 1890s from an oval with ELG to a crowned oval with ELG, if my memory serves me.

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: bigskybound]
#301481 - 07/06/17 08:15 AM

That mark came into use in 1891 on guns destined for the German market. You could go to the German gun collectors site and gain some information using the steel makers mark. You will never be able to date it exactly.

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rpeck

Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: Wayne59]
#301550 - 08/06/17 11:05 PM

I would like to offer it for sale in the USA, hence my interest. If I can prove that it is a pre-1898 gun then I can ship it across the border. If its made after 1898, then I can't.

I'm not real concerned about loading for it, because I doubt very much that I will ever get around to shooting it. That is something for the eventual owner to enjoy playing around with...

Edited by rpeck (08/06/17 11:07 PM)

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Wayne59
.400 member

Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: rpeck]
#301572 - 09/06/17 10:13 AM

I think you would have to go through an Importer to ship your gun to the US. Obama fixed that and as far as I know Trump has not changed it yet. It's only an antique once it is in the US.

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rpeck

Reged: 06/12/13
Posts: 435
Loc: Canada

Re: Belgian/German Cape Gun [Re: Wayne59]
#301655 - 11/06/17 07:00 PM

Quote:

I think you would have to go through an Importer to ship your gun to the US. Obama fixed that and as far as I know Trump has not changed it yet. It's only an antique once it is in the US.

I don't think so. I have done it before fairly recently(shipped a pre-1898 Boer War Mauser to the USA) through regular mail and had no problems. There is some protocol to follow...a note and a few photocopies to US customs officials both inside and outside parcel etc...but it was relatively easy.

Also...In Canada you can ship guns to private individuals, just so long as they have a PAL (Possession and Acquisition License...relatively easy to obtain). It doesn't have to go through dealers like in the States.

Edited by rpeck (11/06/17 07:06 PM)

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