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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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cordite
.333 member


Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle
      #301488 - 07/06/17 11:24 AM

My last two trips to the range have been muzzleloader days. There is just something about the process of loading and shooting muzzleloaders that I find very relaxing. In my small collection of reproduction and antique guns is a favorite that I thought you might enjoy seeing.

This very worn percussion double rifle was made by the little known, but very respected firm of Samual and Charles Smith, Princes St, Leicester Square, London Marked as such on the barrel and locks. Made sometime between 1834 and 1870.



[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20170606_183423_zps100izslb.jpg.html][/URL][/image]


It has a seven groove barrel with a twist of about 1 turn in 96 inches. The bore diameter is abut .702 inches, a 13 bore perhaps. With a weight of over 10 pounds you might think this is a big bore dangerous game rifle. But it is really a deer rifle, with the load engraved on the bottom of the barrels ahead of the forearm. -- Charge of Powder 2 3/4 drams Spherical Ball --




[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20170606_161004_zpsiyhpytl5.jpg.html][/URL][/image]


More to follow...

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cordite
.333 member


Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301489 - 07/06/17 11:43 AM

As you may be able to see, the barrels are neither round or octagon. Instead they have many small flats, about 16 sides per barrel. One of the first things you notice about this gun is how used it is. The engraving is very worn. The original steel ramrod is worn through in places and has been repaired. The fancy sling swivels, which I think are original, are almost worn completely through from many many years of use



[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20170606_160932_zpskd3qu3ww.jpg.html][/URL][/image]


[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20170606_160920_zpsfgxtzohw.jpg.html][/URL][/image]




The locks and triggers all work beautifully and the hammer safeties can still be depended on to lock the hammers in the half cock position.

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cordite
.333 member


Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301490 - 07/06/17 11:54 AM

Sights are a very small, very hard to see, dovetailed silver bead up front and 5 folding leaves marked from 100 to 300 yards, each leaf with an equally small, equally hard to see notch.


[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20170606_161100_zpsfwu7co2j.jpg.html][/URL][/image]


No safe queen here. I bet this old girl really could tell some stories about the good old days.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301491 - 07/06/17 12:13 PM

I bought this gun from an estate. I was told the previous owner had taken it to Africa in the 1990s where it took a wildebeest.

While well worn, it is still solid and I intend to take game with it myself some day soon. I got a round ball mould .678 inches in diameter and have been playing with powder charges, patch thickness and patch lubes. The 2 3/4 drams engraved on the barrels equals about 75 grains. Sure enough, my best load to date is 80 grains of 2f goex.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301492 - 07/06/17 12:15 PM

Here are my last 2 shots from yesterday, a right and a left from 50 yards.

[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/20170606_183126-1_zps1z7rz1vg.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3559
Loc: Colorado
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301493 - 07/06/17 12:42 PM

What an interesting gun! Those barrels are something.
Also great to see it regulating with what we today would expect to be an appropriate load.
I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was restocked at some point - maybe in a far off land. Looks to be quite an old stock if in fact it was restocked at some point in its life.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: Huvius]
      #301495 - 07/06/17 12:54 PM

Yes, good catch. I also thought it might have been restocked long ago. I think a gun of this quality would have had a fancier checkered stock originally.

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DarylSModerator
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27033
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Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301498 - 07/06/17 01:48 PM

Yes - definitely a re-stock - bit clubby in the comb, too, for such a fine rifle. The checkering would have been splendid on the original stock.

Nice score, cordite. Interesting is that the load stamped, does not match the weight and rifling twist.

Have you tried more powder? Too, with a .703" bore, I'd have simply purchased a .690" Lyman mould. I mostly shoot a .682" ball in my .690 rifle, but did try a Tanner mould in 15 bore, ie; .677". I find them too small for the best accuracy, yet my bore is .013" smaller than yours.

My single barreled rifle, with a 66" twist, actually shoots best with a lot more powder than your rifle is marked for.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #301500 - 07/06/17 03:42 PM

What a cool old rifle, I bet she was a beauty in her youth with a fancy stock also !

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TN_Longhunter
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Reged: 03/01/06
Posts: 38
Loc: Lebanon, TN, USA
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: Sarg]
      #301509 - 07/06/17 11:01 PM

I can see why that is your favorite. I really like it

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: TN_Longhunter]
      #301523 - 08/06/17 04:14 AM

Yes a bigger ball is next on the agenda. It shoots pretty well now but still room for improvement. I did try more powder and it shot worse. A larger ball might change how it handles stout loads.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #301524 - 08/06/17 04:19 AM

That is true, cordite. Oft times, heavier charges are less accurate due to rising pressures causing blowby and patch burning. A larger ball and same patch might just be the 'ticket'.
My bro's new Lang rifle, a 16 bore, will shoot well with 80 to 100gr., and has a 48" twist.
What shoots to the sights in a SxS is what is important, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4213
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #301529 - 08/06/17 06:04 AM

Certainly one to pass on Cordite, we're just caretakers of our rifles really as this one proves.
Not bad shooting either mate - I'd be more than happy with that!
Certainly a old yet still pretty impressive piece of kit in my eyes!

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #302036 - 20/06/17 11:12 AM

As expected, .690 balls shot better than the .678 balls I used initially. Most accurate and regulated load increased from 80 to 90 grains which is plenty for the old gal.

I have only used 2f goex. Wonder if 3f would better replicate the powders they used back in the day. I may cut back to 70 grains of 3f and try that. No real reason to as it shoots fine now. Just curious I guess.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: cordite]
      #302041 - 20/06/17 12:01 PM

JMHO but I would not put 3f in a bore that large.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Samual & Charles Smith, London Double Rifle [Re: Wayne59]
      #302046 - 20/06/17 01:43 PM

I'm with Wayne on 3F for large bores.

I tested my 14 bore ML with both 3F and 2F GOEX over the chronograph and 2f outperformed 3F as to velocity and accuracy.

If wanting even better regulation, one might try Swiss powder. I would think 1 1/2F would be about right, but 2F might do as well.

You may be able to reduce the load a bit, but know that the Swiss will develop about the same speeds, at the same pressure.

That means you might be able to drop from 90gr. to 75gr. or 80gr. and get the same regulation/velocities as GOEX, if switching to Swiss, and Swiss costs about 50% more.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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