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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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themauserkid
.275 member


Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 85
Loc: Texas
Combination rifle value?
      #300809 - 26/05/17 12:12 AM

Hello everyone, I've been looking at combination rifles for the last few years and have yet to pull the trigger on one yet. I am mainly interested in pre 1946 Sauer models. I don't necessarily watch some of the big auctions out there/ consider auction prices a true testament to value always. Can anyone please point me in the right direction as far as what a fair price in today's market is? I see many in the 90% condition range in the more common calibers (which I want). I see some with issues sell for less, cracked stocks, refinished, added recoil pads, reblue etc. but I want an untouched or as close as possible example. I know value is often relative and people often don't like to give input to questions like these but as a younger collector trying to crack into this area of collecting I would greatly appreciate it. If not for open discussion, a PM would be fine. I just don't want to dig myself into a hole without asking for experienced opinions. I am looking at a couple examples without scopes which I am fine with, in 85% or better, original condition, wartime and a couple prewar. Thanks for any input!

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: themauserkid]
      #300811 - 26/05/17 02:02 AM

As the owner of several combination guns and drillings, I can only tell you what I look for in such a weapon,

I browsed through Guns International's section on Drillings and Combination Guns and came up with this example, which pretty much exemplifies what I would look for: http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100852611

The gun misses out on one of your requirements immediately, since it is post War. However, there are some distinct disadvantages to pre-War guns you should be aware of. For one, the shot barrel is likely to be 16 gauge 65mm or 70mm. This translates into 2 1/2" or 2 9/16" shells, neither of which is easy to locate. There is the option of opening the chamber up for modern 75mm (2 3/4") shells, but the barrel walls have to be thick enough to allow it.

A pre-War gun is less likely to come with a scope. This is important, because fitting a scope to a drilling or combination gun is likely to be an expensive exercise.

A pre-War gun is also likely to come in a caliber which is difficult to obtain, such as the popular "Förster Patrone" (forester cartridge), the 9.3X72R, which is strictly a hand loading proposition at present.

A pre-War gun is unlikely to have parts available, in the event a replacement is needed, which means that such a part will have to be fabricated by a competent gunsmith.

That said, what do I find attractive about the gun in question? For one thing, it is made by a well known maker, who is still in business. For another, it fires ammunition which is readily available. It is already fitted with a scope in traditional claw mounts. It has a well designed stock, and metal and wood appear to be in excellent condition. Finally, the price is in line with what I would expect to pay for such a weapon. If I did not already have a drilling in the same caliber, I might consider buying it myself.

Good luck in your search!

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3978
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: xausa]
      #300820 - 26/05/17 06:10 AM

Nice piece Xausa, if you bought a shotgun & rifle (single shot) it would cost more for both against this well made drilling - makes sense to buy, well in my eyes anyway!

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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #300827 - 26/05/17 08:03 AM

The 16 gauge shotgun short chamber is fairly simple to deal with. I have a combi gun with a 65mm chamber, I buy 2 & 3/4 inch shells and use a purpose made cutting tool I found on the Internet to cut off the crimp at the very top of the shell body. I then have a very thin cardboard disc also found on the Internet for 16 gauge shells that I place on top of the pellets and then roll crimp the shell mouth in a drill press. One will need to lighten the shot charge ever so slightly to make room enough to roll crimp, but it works like a charm! Instant 2 & 1/2 inch shells!!!

The odd rifle caliber situation is remedied by finding brass and or modifying existing brass through some creative resizing. This is a much more challenging item to overcome based on the caliber chosen. And I'm assuming some advanced reloading skills for the rifle cartridge.

Edited by Postman (26/05/17 09:30 AM)

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themauserkid
.275 member


Reged: 21/06/15
Posts: 85
Loc: Texas
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: Postman]
      #300829 - 26/05/17 10:01 AM

Thank you all for the input! That is a very nice one in the link, I do like it very much. As to possible odd calibers I see what you mean, I like the idea of having one of the long 9.3's but I am primarily looking at 8x57JR or JRS rifles, I am a big fan of the caliber, have had 70+ rifles chambered in it but never a rimmed 8mm. The availability of JR or JRS would alleviate some of my apprehension about the 16 gauge issues. Thank you for the heads up on that, I honestly had no idea that it was hard to obtain, not being a big shotgun guy necessarily. The conversion described sounds like an interesting option as well! Like some of you said the combination rifles are a great way to get a taste of both worlds, having not had any German single shot rifles before either. I know how expensive claw mounts are to have fit and that could one day be an option but for the time being I believe I will only be able to afford one without a scope currently mounted. I am a huge fan of JPS and I'm trying to put together a small collection of them which is why I am primarily looking for them, if I don't end up finding one I will definitely look at other makers though, so many good ones to choose from. Once again thanks for the input, I surely appreciate it and will keep hunting! Maybe luck will land me one over this long holiday weekend.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: themauserkid]
      #300830 - 26/05/17 10:13 AM

You can purchase 2 1/2 in shells all day long from the folks at RST.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: Postman]
      #300841 - 26/05/17 08:58 PM

Quote:


The odd rifle caliber situation is remedied by finding brass and or modifying existing brass through some creative resizing. This is a much more challenging item to overcome based on the caliber chosen. And I'm assuming some advanced reloading skills for the rifle cartridge.



Obtaining brass is the easiest part of loading 9.3X72R ammunition. Factory bullets for that caliber are quite different from those used by other 9.3mm calibers, such as 9.3X57, 9.3X62 and 9.3X74R. Using those bullets would be like trying to load a .38-55 with bullets intended for the .375 H&H. Not only are the readily available bullets inappropriate for the velocity developed by the 9.3X72R cartridge, but the design of the more modern bullet shape does not allow a duplication of the original factory load. This makes trying to get a gun without a scope to shoot to the original point of aim with iron sights only quite difficult.

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HeymSR20
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 244
Loc: Scotland
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: xausa]
      #301018 - 31/05/17 01:31 AM

For general all round use stick with 16 Bore with 7x57r / 7x65R or 8x57 JRS, but don't discount 12 or 20 bore's either. All these calibres are good enough for most things, yet accurate and flat shooting enough that deer sized game is easy enough to take out to 150 to 200 yards if needs be.

Have a clear thought as to intended use. Is it primarily a rifle that you want, but with a shot ability to take sitting game. Or are you after a shotgun that works well on flying game, but you also have the ability to shoot a buck if opportunity presents itself. Some drillings and combinations handle beautifully - others have the handling ability of a benchrest rifle and work well from a highseat, but not much else.

Many of the two barreled over and under combinations have a pair of shot barrels and I think that is a very useful all round package. Shot / rifle for when hunting big game, but you can take a duck on the way home. But if out after ducks / grouse specifically on go the shot barrels.

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: Wayne59]
      #301024 - 31/05/17 05:40 AM

Quote:

You can purchase 2 1/2 in shells all day long from the folks at RST.



That's excellent news for the US based forum members, but here in Canada I have yet to find any 2 1/2" 16 gauge shells at all anywhere in Canada.

Edited by Postman (31/05/17 05:40 AM)

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windy
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Reged: 19/07/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Wet side of Washington State, ...
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: Postman]
      #301034 - 31/05/17 09:18 AM

Another solution to the shot shell problem for 2-1/2" or 2-9/16" shotgun chambers is to order a box of brass hulls from Cabela's or Ballistic Products (they're 2-1/2"), get the wads from BP or Buffalo Arms, and load old-fashioned conventional shells, either blackpowder or smokeless. Also, for a rifle reloader, the 6.5x57R rifle brass opens up to 7mm quite easily with just a pass from the expander ball. I think 7x57R's will open up to 8mm, also, but might have to be full-length resized to go from 8 back to 7. Once fired, they'll only have to be neck-sized when reloaded as long as you only have one rifle of that caliber. One more possibility for the shotgun: pick up a Savage Four-Tenner on Ebay or GB and shoot 3" 410's; they work and pattern well even in Damascus barrels. These aren't guns that get used for extensive trap-shooting or long stays at the rifle range, so reloading for them is more an amusing exercise than a lengthy chore; a few rounds of shotgun shells, a few for the rifle, maybe a few special plinker rifle rounds for small game, and you're set for the whole season. Enjoy!
windy

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: windy]
      #301038 - 31/05/17 11:49 AM

The guy who started this thread lives in Texas. I beleave RST may be able to ship to Canada. Give them a call and ask them.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: Postman]
      #301079 - 01/06/17 03:47 AM

Quote:

Quote:

You can purchase 2 1/2 in shells all day long from the folks at RST.



That's excellent news for the US based forum members, but here in Canada I have yet to find any 2 1/2" 16 gauge shells at all anywhere in Canada.



I bought 2 1/2" brass cases from Buffalo Arms .com some years back, without trouble. Not sure why they came though unscathed by HLS. If you know someone below the 49th, they might mail them to you, Postman. There is an outfit in the States with the proper licensing who does this sort of thing -
for a price, of course.

"shipitto" here's the web site. https://www.shipito.com/en/

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: DarylS]
      #301083 - 01/06/17 04:38 AM

Thanks Daryl. Good to know.

I suppose that necessity drove me to solve for "x".............

This combo gun of mine sees lots of vault time and some field trips every fall, but it doesn't do much sporting clays . Consequently my 2 3/4" cut downs will last me for a very long time. It's a lovely Pre war deeply engraved, gold game animal /bird inlay w/colour case hardening Kirsten lock 7x57R under 16 gauge 2.5". Very light, superbly balanced with nice lumber and in really nice condition, but I do use it to hunt chickens and whitetail hunt on occasion. All my hunting rifles and shot guns see field time, at least as much as I have time to give them, as it should be.


Edited by Postman (01/06/17 04:42 AM)

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3978
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Combination rifle value? [Re: Postman]
      #301086 - 01/06/17 06:09 AM

Quote:

Thanks Daryl. Good to know.

I suppose that necessity drove me to solve for "x".............

This combo gun of mine sees lots of vault time ... All my hunting rifles and shot guns see field time, at least as much as I have time to give them, as it should be.



Most of us probably don't get out no where as regular as we would like - that is very true of myself!
I have had from a young age had this sage advice given to me, "always use the right tool for the job at hand" - firearms are no different.
It might be a once in a lifetime that you need that specific 'tool'; but you'll be kicking yourself if you got rid of it because it wasn't supposedly used enough! Trust me on this, you never forgive yourself for cocking up as you may not need it now, but for your kids or grandkids yes you will!
Food for thought

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