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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
.405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle
      #299666 - 26/04/17 02:53 PM

This is the rifle the .405 Grenadier was developed for. I just got done doing some load work that I thought I would share. The primers are standard Federal Large Rifle. Brass was fire formed from Prvi Partizan 7.62.54R ammunition. Bullets were seated on the cannelure with the exception of the Woodleigh.

The load in red below had a cratered primer on the first firing so I stopped and emptied the remainder of shells with that load. It was the only pressure sign I have seen with any loads I've shot in this rifle. The load was just fine using the 300gr Hornady bullet so I thought I would try it with the 300gr Hawk -- bad idea.







Here is an interesting comparison:



And for those who haven't seen it, the rifle. It's nothing special but a lot of fun:







The sight picture I get with this setup is the same sight picture as the M16.







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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: Grenadier]
      #299674 - 26/04/17 05:09 PM

Is definitely a hard a hard hitter that's for sure!
In a Lee Enfield No4 or Nosin Nagant or a it would be even more of a good thing!
How would it then compare to the .405 Winchester?


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crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #299696 - 27/04/17 12:11 AM

To Grenadier:
My compliments on your work with the 41 caliber 400 grain bullets and on your explanation and presentation of your results. There does seem to be good interest in your project and I look forward to reading anything further that you publish.



To 93x64mm,
Good question and in a nutshell:

Factory 300 grain Hornady .405 WCF ammo in my Miroku/Winchester 1895 runs 2225 -2250 fps. My 300 grain reloads with Hornady, NF, Barnes, Woodleigh, bullets and N133 powder run 2225-2250 fps and shoot to the same point of aim as Hornady 300 grain factory ammo.

It is easy to hand load the 300 grain bullets to 2350-2400 fps if desired, but my experience with my 1895 is that higher velocity is not needed for hunting unless the shooter wants to prove something other than how well he can shoot and take game. With a scoped Ruger #1 in .405 WCF, the hotter loads could provide an extension of useable range while the added weight would help dampen the increased recoil.

My 400 grain .405 loads for the Woodleigh .411 bullets were loaded for a Cape buffalo hunt to equal or exceed factory velocities of 450/400 ammo; 2050 fps and 3732 foot pounds energy. That load in the 450/400 double rifle has taken every large and dangerous land creature on the planet.

My research suggests that with N530, I can reach 2100 fps from a 24 inch barrel at much lower pressure than the TAC loads. In fact, N133 loads (at much lower pressures) reached the same velocity as with TAC, but with less consistency (due to the loading accuracy of the TAC ball powder?). N530 grains are the same physical size as N133, but with a higher energy per grain. This research was largely for my .405 double rifle whose 400 grain proof loads were at the same 49,000 psi as my 400 grain TAC loads. I thought to not shoot proof loads as a practice.

Mid power N133 loads at 2020 fps show great accuracy potential in the double rifle (one inch groups at 100 yards from the right and left barrels) and when my double returns from some reregulation work, I will proceed with both N133 and N530 experiments to see which performs best.

By the way, you appear to be a fan of the .405 WCF. Do you have one ?
I have some friends down under that shoot the 1895 .405 and really are competent with them.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: crshelton]
      #299699 - 27/04/17 01:43 AM

Thanks, shelton. The goal with this cartridge and rifle was not to equal .405 Winchester loads. Plainly, the rifle cannot do that. Instead, it was to find a better alternative to shooting .45-70 or .444 Marlin loads in these rifles.

The Marlin 1895 is a completely different rifle than the Winchester 1895. Each is great in its own way. The Winchester rifle is more powerful and handles loads with pointed bullets. The Marlin rifle is over two pounds lighter, a few inches shorter, better suited for scope use, and can be had in stainless steel. That said, If I could have successfully stuffed the .405 Winchester cartridge into the Marlin rifle I would have done so in an instant. However, that was not a realistic option.

The .405 Grenadier can equal .405 Winchester loads and ballistics in the Mosin Nagant. More powerful bolt action rifles abound but, again, the Grenadier is purposed as a better alternative in that particular rifle. The same can be said for chambering the Siamese Mauser in .405 Grenadier (soon) where a short, rimmed cartridge is required. Neither the Mosin Nagant nor the Siamese would function with the smaller rimmed .405 Winchester cartridge without refacing the bolt, replacing the extractor, etc. Further, there is no need. With long, heavy bullets the .405 Grenadier has more usable case volume than the .405 Winchester and can easily match or best .405 Winchester loads at any given pressure in bolt rifles loaded with projectiles like the 400gr Woodleigh. It might not be the cartridge of choice for the universe of rifles but for at least three rifles - Marlin lever, Mosin Nagant, and Siamese Mauser - it is a wonderful option.

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: Grenadier]
      #299709 - 27/04/17 06:28 AM

crshelton & Grenadier,
Guess you picked that I have a weakness for the different or odd calibre kind. So things like a completely different or unusual calibre in a certain rifle really gets my attention.
For a classic example being the 450 Alaskan on a 1886.

Most certainly a doable project & giving those rifles another hard hitting option & better projectiles.
In reality Woodleigh is now making all those 'unpopular' cartridges that never really made a success for themselves far better & more reliable (& safer) than originally first done.

As to having a .405 & in a 1895 - I certainly wish!
Keep up the good work!
Cheers
93x64mm


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #299756 - 28/04/17 06:06 AM

Read an article some time ago in a Handloader or Rifle magazine of a guy who built a Mosin Nagent in .50 Alaskan.

He was running almost 2,000fps with 510's, seems to me, but did complain about the recoil.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #300229 - 08/05/17 04:01 PM

I'm having fun making charts and tables. Bright charts and tables.

The .45-70 405gr Level 2 load has a velocity of 1750 fps from the Marlin 22" barrel. That's a pretty stiff load but I wanted a good comparison. Bullet weight for bullet weight the .405 bullets best the .444 and .45-70 bullets in both ballistic coefficient and sectional density.



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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: Grenadier]
      #302584 - 01/07/17 06:50 AM

Photobucket is blocking the pictures and it is too late for me to edit the above posts. So, let's see if we can put the pictures here like this....


7.62x54R and .405 Grenadier. The Russian round supplies the parent case for the .405 Grenadier:


Left to right - .45-70 case, 7.63x54R cartridge, .405 Grenadier cartridge, .405 Grenadier case:












.45-70 and .405 Grenadier, both with 300gr bullets:


Published factory muzzle velocities for .444 and .45-70 were made from 24" or 26" "test" barrels.
Therefore, all muzzle velocities used for the below cartridges were "normalized" to a 22" barrel.


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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: Grenadier]
      #302622 - 02/07/17 02:54 AM

Grenadier,
Based on the uproar this action by PB has caused on other forums, it seems that the best policy is to migrate your pix to another site/service and dump PB.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: crshelton]
      #302734 - 05/07/17 05:25 PM

These are from Flickr.

I would delete the post above if I could.




.45-70, .405 Grenadier, and the 300gr bullets they each shoot.


.458 Sierra
Dia = .458"
Wt. = 300gr
BC = .145
SD = .204

.405 Hornady
Dia = .411
Wt. = 300gr
BC = .215
SD = .251

Left to right - .45-70 case, 7.62x54R cartridge, .405 Grenadier cartridge, .405 Grenadier case:











Published factory muzzle velocities for .444 and .45-70 are based on velocities from 24" or 26" "test" barrels.
Therefore, all muzzle velocities used for the below cartridges have been "normalized" for a 22" barrel.



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crshelton
.333 member


Reged: 10/11/15
Posts: 379
Loc: Republic of Texas
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: Grenadier]
      #302814 - 07/07/17 05:35 AM

Grenadier,
Once again great pix and charts ( and record keeping and data also ).

If I were a Marlin rifleman,I might be a customer just for the fun of it.

However, my .405s, 1886 .45-70 and 1886 .45-90 keep me pretty busy.

In fact, I must now go and load 400 grain .405 bullets to test regulation of them in my double.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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Grenadier
.375 member


Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: crshelton]
      #304898 - 07/09/17 03:48 AM

Thank you for the kind words, CR. However, I just noticed you said this, "If I were a Marlin rifleman, I might be a customer just for the fun of it."

The word "customer" stood out to me. To be clear, I am not selling or licensing the cartridge and I am not making anything from it. It is a non-proprietary wildcat - totally non-proprietary. If I've come across like I am promoting it that's only because it's such a great wildcatting option for the Marlin 1895 and Mosin Nagant rifles and I want to share that. Many people own those rifles and have few chambering options for them. But those rifles can be converted to .405 Grenadier very easily. In fact, all it takes for the Marlin 1895 is re-barreling and finishing the chamber.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .405 Grenadier in the Marlin Lever Rifle [Re: Grenadier]
      #304910 - 07/09/17 08:26 AM

Thanks Grenadier - cool round for sure. I do like the idea of a .411" or .416" 300gr. for a lever gun for hunting in NA.

Buddy of mine has a stainless Marlin with 18 1/2" bl. In it, a load of 49.0gr. Re#7 with a Barnes Old Style 400FN runs 2,004 fps my chronograph, 2,007fps his machine. That's almost 200fps faster than Speer had that load running with their bullet from their test 22" bl. in book #13, maybe 11 and 12 as well. This data, according to Speer, runs 28,000cup. Obviously Gordy's rifle runs higher than that, but absolutely no adverse pressure signs occurred with it. The maximum for that rifle is listed at 43,000cup.

My new Marlin 1895 22" has shown it is not as accurate as I'd hoped it would be. I will keep your round in mind for a re-barrel. I also have a .450 Alaskan reamer that could be used for a new .45 bl.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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