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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
400 H&H
      #295831 - 25/02/17 07:54 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_H%26H_Magnum


Article about this in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN --this months issue

Anyone use this or have any experience with it..was talking to a custom gunmaker this morning who told me to read this article..

Apparently Dakota Arms is producing rifles in this caliber...per the article

Interesting...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (25/02/17 07:55 AM)


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Well_Well_Well
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Reged: 03/01/07
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Loc: Australia
Re: 400 H&H [Re: Ripp]
      #295834 - 25/02/17 08:04 AM

I've had plans for one for a few years, but life keeps getting in the way.

I'll get there in the end. I already have a CRF 416, so I had in mind a push feed bolt action, for sambar.

Of course if I end up with a 450-400, I may have to look on from afar......


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Rule303
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #295839 - 25/02/17 08:44 AM

Certainly is a step up on the 375H&H. If i did not have a 416 i might of had an interest in this cartridge.

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Altamaha
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Ripp]
      #296205 - 04/03/17 06:53 AM

Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.400_H%26H_Magnum


Article about this in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN --this months issue

Anyone use this or have any experience with it..was talking to a custom gunmaker this morning who told me to read this article..

Apparently Dakota Arms is producing rifles in this caliber...per the article

Interesting...

Ripp




I have the first set of reamers ground in the US.

Chambered a test barrel, made dies, used a strain gauge system for load development. Have a lot of load data and sent it off to H&H years ago per their request.

This cartridge is easy to work with and is very efficient, much more so than the 416 Rem. Easy to obtain 2400 ft/sec at moderate pressure. A perfect cast bullet cartridge.

.411 bullet diameter.






Edited by Altamaha (04/03/17 06:55 AM)


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Wanabebwana
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Altamaha]
      #296372 - 06/03/17 09:50 AM

Hi Altamaha. If the .400 is based on the .375H&H case and due to its long neck has less powder capacity than the .416 Rem Mag. The COL of .400 is 3.55" compared to 3.6" for .416. The .416 also has a slight advantage in volumetric efficiency(.416 vs .411).Can you explain how the H&H can produce 2400fps at lower pressures?
Since we already have the .404 NE,the.416 Ruger,Rigby,Rem, Dakota,Wby and I'm sure I forgot a few like the Lazzeroni Meteor and I won't mention the wildcats, I fail to see any advantage to the .400H&H other than the status associated with the Marque.
It requires a magnum length action,and for most will be a handloading proposition due to cost and availability of ammo. The .416 Ruger will push a 400gr at 2400fps from a Mauser 98. The Ideal for me to build a proper rifle would be a .416 based on a shortened (2.5") .404 Jeffrey case. Maybe Nosler will produce it in a few years. Greater powder capacity than H&H with shorter stroke of Mauser 98.


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DarylS
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296379 - 06/03/17 12:38 PM

One of these days, I plan on building a .416 Taylor. 2,400fps with a 400gr. bullet.

Ken Waters did it with a prototype Ruger Rife.

So easy to neck down .458's, or neck up .338's or 7mm Rem Mags - even .264's are easily necked up.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wanabebwana
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: DarylS]
      #296389 - 06/03/17 03:44 PM

Wow a 400gr at 2400fps. No one's ever done that. Should be a winner if anyone ever builds a rifle for a cartridge capable of that. Now we need to imagine an animal, maybe a big black bull-like aggressive creature with thick horns like a helmet that charges the hunter to use it on. Sweet!

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93x64mm
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296393 - 06/03/17 06:43 PM

Quote:

Hi Altamaha. If the .400 is based on the .375H&H case and due to its long neck has less powder capacity than the .416 Rem Mag. The COL of .400 is 3.55" compared to 3.6" for .416. The .416 also has a slight advantage in volumetric efficiency(.416 vs .411).Can you explain how the H&H can produce 2400fps at lower pressures?
Since we already have the .404 NE,the.416 Ruger,Rigby,Rem, Dakota,Wby and I'm sure I forgot a few like the Lazzeroni Meteor and I won't mention the wildcats, I fail to see any advantage to the .400H&H other than the status associated with the Marque.
It requires a magnum length action,and for most will be a handloading proposition due to cost and availability of ammo. The .416 Ruger will push a 400gr at 2400fps from a Mauser 98. The Ideal for me to build a proper rifle would be a .416 based on a shortened (2.5") .404 Jeffrey case. Maybe Nosler will produce it in a few years. Greater powder capacity than H&H with shorter stroke of Mauser 98.




Try the .416 Howell
https://books.google.com.au/books?id=woc...ell&f=false


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Ash
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Posts: 1653
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: 93x64mm]
      #296396 - 06/03/17 09:09 PM

Can someone get a scan up of the article mentioned in the first post?

I for one like H&H's 2 newest bolt cartridges. They ooze style. I prefer nice round curves, not hard things..Some guys may disagree

--------------------
.


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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296397 - 06/03/17 09:48 PM

Quote:

Wow a 400gr at 2400fps. No one's ever done that. Should be a winner if anyone ever builds a rifle for a cartridge capable of that. Now we need to imagine an animal, maybe a big black bull-like aggressive creature with thick horns like a helmet that charges the hunter to use it on. Sweet!




Not sure that Altamaha was trying to big note himself or anything, just seems pretty pleased with his acquisition. I think most others here like the look and the performance potential of the cartridge as well.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296399 - 06/03/17 10:40 PM

Quote:

Wow a 400gr at 2400fps. No one's ever done that. Should be a winner if anyone ever builds a rifle for a cartridge capable of that. Now we need to imagine an animal, maybe a big black bull-like aggressive creature with thick horns like a helmet that charges the hunter to use it on. Sweet!




I always thought the .416 Chatfield-Taylor was more of a 2100 to 2150 fps cartridge.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rell
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: NitroX]
      #296403 - 07/03/17 12:35 AM

Gentlemen,

At the risk of causing descent I must say that 400gr at 2400fps is simply to much of a good thing.

I believe the 450/400 proved beyond reasonable doubt that the optimal velocity for a 400gr 40 caliber solid is 2150fps.

As a coincidence, the underloved 400 Whelen delivers that in a standard action with 5 down and 1 up capacity.

Food for thought and American made, even the Donald could not argue.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 400 H&H [Re: Rell]
      #296406 - 07/03/17 02:44 AM

The cartridge is efficient without the bullet extending way into the powder charge as in the 416 Rem.

It makes maximum use of the powder charge.

I will go back to my notes and pull out some pressure and velocity data and post later. It also may be built on a standard M98 action.


I have the 416 Howell reamers also and have chambered three barrels. This cartridge works perfect in a Pre 64 M70 Winchester.

416 Rem, 400 H&H, 404 Jeffery below.



416 Howell: Ken Howell's photo on the right, my stuff on the left.




I also have a 416 Rigby.

I am not saying one is any better that the other. Just choose your favorite cartridge and build your rifle.

The inexpensive way to go, with ease of obtaining ammunition, is the 416 Remington.


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27097
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: NitroX]
      #296412 - 07/03/17 05:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Wow a 400gr at 2400fps. No one's ever done that. Should be a winner if anyone ever builds a rifle for a cartridge capable of that. Now we need to imagine an animal, maybe a big black bull-like aggressive creature with thick horns like a helmet that charges the hunter to use it on. Sweet!




I always thought the .416 Chatfield-Taylor was more of a 2100 to 2150 fps cartridge.




Ken Water's in July 1974, did an article in Handloader or Rifle magazine on the Ruger .416 Taylor.

He hit the magic 2,400fps quite easily using IMR4320 powder, same as John Whooters did in his custom .416Taylor, using the same powder.

In my hardcover Pet Loads from the late 70's, the data is on page #311. He hit 2,400fps even using IMR3031 as well as with IMR4320, 3 loads, 2,401fps, 2,447fps and 2,469fps - using 400gr. Colorado Round Nose bullets.(Later Barnes, seems to me)

With the 300gr. RN's, he got 2,680fps with IMR3031 and 2,711 with IMR4320.

All through the years, KEN has been known for fairly 'soft' data. I think this is true for many ctgs. but perhaps not in this case.

Ken's slowest load with the 400gr. is 4gr. under max using WW748 powder and is 2,101fps. Max with that powder gave him only 2,226fps.

The next slowest load uses IMR3031 and starts at 2,182fps, with it's max. load at 2,400fps.

His IMR4320 loads started at 2,355fps and went to 2,469fps.

The load Ken suggested for the heat of Africa, was the 2,401fps load, 2 gr. under the 2,447fps load of IMR4320, as noted above.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wanabebwana
.300 member


Reged: 11/01/13
Posts: 221
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Altamaha]
      #296424 - 07/03/17 08:41 AM

You can build a .416 Rigby or even a .585 Nyati on a standard '98. Doesn't mean it's the best idea even if Rigby did it.
The .400H&H neck is too long for 400gr bullets. You could not seat the bullet flush with base of the neck. Sure it should cycle very slick but it loses case capacity and will need higher pressure to equal a .416 Rem. So the Rem can be loaded at lower pressures and equal the .400 just like the Rigby will reach Rem velocities at lower pressures.
Efficiency can be found in cases with fatter bodies like the .404. This is why a .300WSM can equal the velocity and energy of a .300 Win mag with less powder. This is not the case with the .400H&H which uses the same basic case as the .416 Rem. The Rem is more like a blown out .400. My .300 H&H cannot come close to the .300WBY mag but the blown out Wby will equal H&H ballistics at much lower pressures.

The .465H&H is a different animal. The long neck allows the 480gr bullet to seat deep in the .460 Wby based case to give a COL of 3.5", more suitable to a '98 Mauser action. At 2375fps ( H&H ballistics)
it gives Lott performance with lower pressures. A classic with an advantage.

H&H Big Bores
.375 .400 .465



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Grenadier
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Reged: 20/02/08
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296430 - 07/03/17 10:36 AM

What you say about fat, low taper cases producing the same velocities as their tapered counterparts at lower pressures is correct. But that is not the only consideration in good case design, nor is it the most important. If it were, then every cartridge designed and released in the last 50 years would look like one of the Weatherby magnums, the STW, the 8mm Remington Magnum, or the Winchester Super Short magnums. Of course, that is not what has happened.

The 400 H&H is a very good design. Obviously, it wasn't designed to produce more velocity than every other .400 cartridge. Judging by what was said about it, it was designed to produce velocity within a certain range and to do that at a reasonable pressure while providing a safe margin for pressure increases encountered when hunting in high temperature environments. It was also designed on H&H's famous long magnum platform, making it a perfect candidate for rebarreling of .300 H&H and .375 H&H rifles. Further, the long taper is reminiscent of the 300 H&H, a very successful round that has a long and well deserved reputation for feeding "like butter".

Various cartridges exist for various reasons. The .400 H&H does not exist to answer the requirement for the fasted possible .400 cartridge. I could go on, but I won't. Suffice to say the points above were enough for me to have a .375 H&H rifle converted to .400 H&H.

The bottom line, the .400 H&H exists in its present design because that design had sufficient raison d'être for H&H to make it that way.

--------------------
~


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Wanabebwana
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Grenadier]
      #296434 - 07/03/17 11:50 AM

The .404 Jeffrey is a classic that gives the smooth chambering and lower pressure without the useless rim. It can fit in a '98 Mauser with a small amount of mods ( as per the majority of original Jeffreys) and ammo is readily available. A classic cartridge that has proven itself for over a century and is making a comeback.

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Grenadier
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296449 - 07/03/17 02:10 PM

There is nothing wrong with the .404 Jeffrey, quite the contrary. But if it was the do all to end all of 40 something calibers what are we doing with all those others?

The .404 Jeffrey and .400 H&H are different cartridges. Period. The world can exist with both and deciding which one a shooter wants in his rifle is a matter of personal choice. We have seen the endless debates between 7mm Mag, .270, and .30-06, and, a long time ago, the .338 Win Mag and .358 Norma. Shall we debate the .338-06 out of existence because the .330 caliber .318 W-R has been around for over a century? Are we to engage in such a debate now?


The cartridges are simply different:

  • The H&H is a .410 caliber but the Jeffrey is a .423 caliber.
  • The H&H is better suited to a "standard" magnum action while the Jeffery is better suited to a "true" magnum action. Yes, both can be built on both actions but each is better sized for one action over the other.
  • The x-sectional area of the .400 H&H bullet is .13 in² while the x-sectional area of the Jeffrey bullet is .14 in². That accounts for the slightly higher sectional density and ballistic advantage the H&H round has over the Jeffery. For example, the SD of a 400 grain bullet is .340 for the H&H vs .319 for the Jeffery.
  • The Jeffery cartridge is slightly bigger (113gr H20 vs 104 grains H2O) but the H&H is slightly more powerful because the H&H is loaded to higher pressures (that nasty belted case!).

The list is not complete. But even if it were it doesn't mean one is any better than the other. It only serves to illustrate that they are different.

--------------------
~


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Wanabebwana
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Grenadier]
      #296456 - 07/03/17 04:05 PM

1.The belt of a cartridge does not make it handle higher pressures. It is strictly for headspacing. (The RUM cartridges, Lazzeronis, Lapua and WSM are not belted and operate at the highest allowable SAAMI pressures)
2.The .400H&H offers no advantages over the.416 Ruger and the .416 Rem.
3.Making an argument for the difference in SD between a .416 and a .401 is ludicrous.
There are .410 gr and 450gr Woodleighs available for the .404 and for the .416 with higher SD(.361-371).
4.There is no need for a .400H&H, except to sell bespoke rifles and proprietary ammo,as it offers no real advantages.
I respect the right of any gun owner to own whatever makes them happy without the need to denigrate well established classics or superior cartridge designs.


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Grenadier
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296464 - 07/03/17 06:27 PM

Quote:

1.The belt of a cartridge does not make it handle higher pressures. It is strictly for headspacing. (The RUM cartridges, Lazzeronis, Lapua and WSM are not belted and operate at the highest allowable SAAMI pressures) 100% true. But while the .404 case was designed and made for 53,000 psi that nasty belted H&H case was designed and made for 64,000 psi.

2.The .400H&H offers no advantages over the .416 Ruger and the .416 Rem. How many different cartridges will you keep saying it doesn't offer an advantage over? In that line of thinking the .416 Weatherby offers an advantage over ALL of them and must be the only legitimate 40 caliber. I can name cartridges those don't offer any advantage over and I can name cartridges the .400 H&H does offer an advantage over. I can do it all day long but it won't change the fact that all the cartridges are different. They each have a specific reason for being, each have short-comings, and each have advantages when compared to other cartridges. Most obvious is that the .404 Jeffery and the .400 H&H are different calibers! They are more different than the .358 is from the 9.3mm, and as different as a .450 is from the .470. Or do you think we don't need a .450/.458 because we have the .470?

3.Making an argument for the difference in SD between a .416 and a .401 is ludicrous.
There are .410 gr and 450gr Woodleighs available for the .404 and for the .416 with higher SD(.361-371). The SD of the 400 grain .410 still bests the SD of the 410 grain .423. The fact remains that bullet weight for bullet weight a .410 will always best a .423 in SD. The existence of one 450 grain Woodleigh bullet cannot change that. Woodleigh is making a heavy for caliber bullet for the .404, something they are very good at. But if anyone were to make a 450gr .410 bullet (and they could be easily ordered from a couple of US companies) then the SD of that .410 bullet would be 0.382 vs 0.361 for the .423 bullet.

4.There is no need for a .400H&H, except to sell bespoke rifles and proprietary ammo,as it offers no real advantages. You condemn it because you don't like it. You don't like it because you associate it with "bespoke rifles and proprietary ammo", nothing more and nothing less. My rifle is a converted old Whitworth Express and others are doing similar conversions. It only takes a barrel change, a very inexpensive conversion. You've got to do a lot more than that if you want to convert a readily available mauser sporter to .416 Rigby or .404 Jeffrey, a LOT more. As far as new rifles, the largest manufacturer of rifles in .400 H&H is probably Dakota. It is a very popular chambering for them. Dakota rifles are not sold at Walmart prices but neither are they the price of a "bespoke" rifle, far from it. And the ammo is not proprietary. It can be made by any company and has been loaded by a few. Holland & Holland makes none of it. The 50 Beowulf and .416 JDJ are proprietary rounds. Not so the .400 H&H.

I respect the right of any gun owner to own whatever makes them happy without the need to denigrate well established classics or superior cartridge designs. So do I. I'm not denigrating any cartridge. You are the one doing that. You are denigrating a new design just because it is new and not an "established classic". If that was the prevailing attitude we would all be shooting .45-70 and .375 NE 2-1/2" rifles. Anyway, I see them as two different and distinct cartridges, each with their pluses and each with their minuses.




--------------------
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Wanabebwana
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Grenadier]
      #296480 - 08/03/17 02:15 AM

The finest British cartridges ever made for magazine rifles.


.300 H&H .375H&H .416 Rigby .404 Jeffrey .505 Gibbs


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Grenadier
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296514 - 08/03/17 07:19 AM

In your opinion. But opinions differ. For example, I would not have included three of those in what I consider to be "the finest British cartridges ever made for magazine rifles". Surely, there will be other people who would choose differently than either of us.

Anyway, it's off topic. The subject of the thread is the .400 H&H, a very fine cartridge.

--------------------
~


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Wanabebwana
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Re: 400 H&H *DELETED* [Re: Grenadier]
      #296517 - 08/03/17 07:41 AM

Post deleted by Wanabebwana

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Grenadier
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #296519 - 08/03/17 08:41 AM

As mentioned, Dakota sells them and for a lot less than $45K. Nevertheless, most are probably made up like mine by rebarreling a .375 or .300.

How many have been made in 15 years? I don't know. But how fast a cartridge catches on isn't always related to it's usefulness. We have had some flash in the pan calibers that sold like hot cakes but all but disappeared in a few years. We have had some slow starters as well. And .400 H&H rifles are being made. They are being made by H&H, by Dakota, and by gunsmiths whose customers occasionally order one made up.

The .416 Rigby hasn't been made in huge numbers either. There have only been about 2000 .416 Rigby rifles produced - ever. Ruger made over 1000 of those. And in the entire life of the cartridge, 105 years, Rigby has only made about 550 of them. It was Ruger who brought the .416 Rigby cartridge out from the fringes with a mass produced rifle and it took eight decades for that to happen. And only then were ammunition makers willing to take it seriously enough to add it to their catalogs. Before that, options for loaded ammo were very limited.

Remington's .416 was and is successful in no small part because it is Remington's policy to manufacture ammunition for any rifle they produce and Remington is one of the largest sporting ammunition producers in the world.

The single biggest thing holding the .400 H&H back in the USA is the availability of mainstream ammo. I am confident that will eventually change and that it will take less than 80 years to do so. For now, it is a matter of special order or load your own. But .400 H&H head stamped brass is easy to find and costs less than .416 Rigby brass. And .410/.411 bullets are aplenty.

--------------------
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Huvius
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Re: 400 H&H [Re: Grenadier]
      #296541 - 08/03/17 02:12 PM

Quote:



The .416 Rigby hasn't been made in huge numbers either. There have only been about 2000 .416 Rigby rifles produced - ever. Ruger made over 1000 of those. And in the entire life of the cartridge, 105 years, Rigby has only made about 550 of them.





You really think it is low as 2000?
Condidering the Continental makers, I would think they made twice as many as Rigby did. Mahillon, Francotte, Casartelli etc. all made 416s.
Mauser did a run back in 2000 iirc too.
Then surely a few hundred made by American custom makers and the bigger makers like Hoffman and G&H.
Heck, there's about 100 of them for sale on gunsinternational right now...

I should have kept my Mahillon...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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