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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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wapitiman
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 13
underlevers vs. top lever
      #29502 - 14/04/05 01:41 PM

I see alot of complaining about guns going off face.Has anyone seen this occur with any back action underlever of good repute? does anyone still make exposed hammer underlevers and why not? They are by far stronger and of better design than hammerless boxlocks and sidelocks.

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29506 - 14/04/05 02:12 PM

wapitiman:

In reply to:

why not?


If you've ever been in a DG dust-up with a Jones-underlever hammer extractor double, you wouldn't have to ask this question! History has proved the hammerless top-lever ejector to be the ultimate development of the double rifle, as is reflected in their price!

(ps: hopefully I haven't just turned this thread into another ejectors vs extractors arm-wrestle. Just my humble opinion, but backed-up by at least a little experience, and market value!)

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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wapitiman
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 13
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: Marrakai]
      #29508 - 14/04/05 02:25 PM

I sure would hate to have one of those fancy ejectors go south on me in a DG dust-up. If speed is the impotant factor here there are guns that shoot alot faster.Although I'm not sure if Heckler & Koch make a cartridge of suitable size..
simplicity+strength+longevity=exposed hammered underlever!

Edited by wapitiman (14/04/05 02:30 PM)

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JPK
.375 member


Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29513 - 14/04/05 02:40 PM

When a fancy ejector goes south, at least for rimmed cartridges, you should find that you've got an extractor. If both go south you've now got two extractors.

JPK

Edited by JPK (14/04/05 02:43 PM)

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wapitiman
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 13
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: JPK]
      #29514 - 14/04/05 02:42 PM

At that point all your lacking is an underlever.

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wapitiman
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 13
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: Marrakai]
      #29515 - 14/04/05 02:49 PM

Hammerless guns are indeed more expensive,It takes alot more work to hollow out what was once a strong action and install underbolt cuts and make room for the hammers.

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
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Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29516 - 14/04/05 02:50 PM

I'd be willing to bet that the man with an ejector double will be firing his fourth and fifth shot while the man with the Jones underlever, hammer extractor is firing his third and fourth, if that.

Wasn't that the point of Marrakai's post? And wasn't that the reason the technology moved past the Jones underlever and the exposed hammers?

The highest state of refinement of the hammer gun is the Purdey top lever ejector guns shot by Lord Ripon and King Edward amounst others.

The highest development of Purdey is the hammerless double.

JPK

Edited by JPK (14/04/05 03:02 PM)

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wapitiman
.224 member


Reged: 10/04/05
Posts: 13
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: JPK]
      #29517 - 14/04/05 02:57 PM

Probably true!But the guy with the underlever hit his mark with the first and second! According to Jack Lott when the english were making the transition to hammerless top levers for shotguns,much testing was done and the makers thought it not wise to do so with rifles due to them not holding up as the underlever does. The public who did much more shooting with shotguns got used to the idea and the makers gave in.

Samuel allport patented a hammerless underlever that would seem to be a nice compromise but I'm not sold on the camming devise that cocks the hammers.

Edited by wapitiman (14/04/05 03:21 PM)

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29519 - 14/04/05 03:31 PM

See my edited prior post which crossed your latest post.

You may well be right on the issue of the gunmakers concern about the top lever guns but the customers wanted and some needed the ease of reloading. I'm not so sure that the trekkers and ivory hunters were more accustomed to the shotgun; but they ordered their riffles hammerless and toplever!

No doubt the Jones underlever is a very strong design,many of which have stood the test of time, but how fast a gun comes off face has much to do with how well it was built in the first place. Replacing the pin or otherwise putting a gun back on face after years of use is no burden either. After the trigger has been pulled the first time all guns are somewhere along the journey to rejointing.

On the shooting issue, I hope your confidence matches your performance, even the best aren't 100%. Remmember too that most fatalities in Elephant hunting are caused not by the elephant which has been shot but by a companion elephant. Would hate to still be reloading that Jones underlever when Askiri comes storming through the bush!

My thoughts on what could be an eternal debate between a guy who owns one type of rifle and loves it and another who owns a different type and loves it equally!

JPK
PS I do hanker for an old BP double with a Jones underlever and hammers too!

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wapitiman
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Reged: 10/04/05
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Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: JPK]
      #29520 - 14/04/05 03:43 PM

Yah, its all in good fun!
I like them all! I still want to know if anyone has ever seen an underlever that was loose.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29523 - 14/04/05 05:57 PM


wapitiman

Yes, heaps of them but the whole of the guns were in a pretty sorry state as well.

Have a look at the Patent drawings of how the Jones Underlever works and you'll see
why they are less likely to feel / come loose.

wapitiman - Just because you hit with the first and 2nd shots doesn't mean you don't require
the 3rd and 4th.

As Marakai said, if you've ever been in a DG situation AND / OR Copped a full on charge,
you know what I mean.

500 Nitro

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3482
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29524 - 14/04/05 06:18 PM

wapitiman:
Please don't think I'm putting forward some unfounded bias here. I have hunted buffalo with both action types, and while I still love to hunt with my ULH Alex Henry .577 double, and wouldn't part with it for anything, I can clearly appreciate why such rifles are now obsolete in the face of the top-lever hammerless gun.

If nostalgia is your thing (...and its often a big part of mine!), then hunt DG with ULH doubles by all means: I wish you well. I simply fail to understand your obvious need to justify such action on the grounds of strength/efficiency/safety.

..and BTW, there are plenty of Jones-patent underlever hammerless doubles out there, and most use rods to cock on the fall of the barrels. Alexander Henry built stacks of them, even though this practice "hollows out what was once a strong action"! Guess what? They're still strong actions! ...just like top-lever doubles!


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Wes
.224 member


Reged: 15/03/05
Posts: 5
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29540 - 15/04/05 10:02 AM

In reply to:

I still want to know if anyone has ever seen an underlever that was loose.



Probably none. But a gun can't shoot loose when it's not shot much. Everybody's shooting toplevers!

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: Wes]
      #29650 - 18/04/05 06:02 AM

A snap action underlever is faster to reload than a top lever.

Such as this:

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: 500grains]
      #29684 - 18/04/05 03:15 PM

As as an interesting note, I'm a lefty and have owned and shot "right" handed toplevers exclusively, even though they may have been made with stocks for a lefty (or restocked). I've seen and handled a few mirror image left hand actioned guns. I've got to say that I believe that the right handed top lever is faster and easier for a lefty to open and load than a left handed action. To reload I push the toplever with my left thumb rather than draw it and this is a motion with less movement of the hand or the thumb.

FWIW,

JPK

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29732 - 19/04/05 12:56 PM

Never had a DR with an underlever, but the drillings I've had were very fast to open and re-load with the snap action. My last one is going to a dirty rotten scoundrel of a member here who held a gun to my head and made me sell it to him...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
and another in the wings... [Re: luv2safari]
      #29781 - 20/04/05 11:22 AM

*slaps his open off hand with the stock and muzzle of the Tower pistol...*


And you know I'd have done the same.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5272
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: 500grains]
      #29812 - 21/04/05 01:12 AM

Here's my snap action underlever double rifle (a .450/.400 3.25" NE):



It's important to distinguish between the Jones system and the snap actions such as this. This thread started as a Jones system discussion, I think.

On these snap actions the lever pivots forward in the same manner as the lever on a Ruger #1 or a Winchester 92. It does not swing to the side as in a Jones.

These snap actions are based on the Purdey bolting system. In fact, the bolting is virtually the same as the original Purdey system with the "thumbhole" in the trigger guard.

On my rifle the lever also cocks the tumblers, so the barrels just fall open and require no downward force to cock the tumblers. It is fast, indeed.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Snap... [Re: CptCurl]
      #29813 - 21/04/05 01:33 AM

That's a lovely rifle.


I do like the snap action guns too.
I have a tiny hammerless snap action cape gun with neat little gold cocking indicators and a two position flip rear sight in .22 and 9 rimfire shotshell. It also relies on lever throw to cock the action. Got it for my daughter, I'll get to run it till she's old enough to hold it.
I have a hammergun mate to it as well.
The guys at Puglisi (sp?) have an interesting double rifle in 6x58 -I think- that has somewhat of a snap action arrangement, but the system is operated by a third trigger of sorts that runs a lever that's coaxial with the trigger guard, and swings back into the action instead of pivoting in front of it.
Cool little gun.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: underlevers vs. top lever [Re: wapitiman]
      #29818 - 21/04/05 03:09 AM

A discussion on another forum http://tinyurl.com/astdg

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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