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AndrewS
.224 member


Reged: 01/10/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Suffolk, UK
Forming 9.5 x 57 brass...
      #290045 - 10/11/16 06:22 AM

Hello

Has anyone posted a "how-to" on forming 9.5 x 57 brass? I have a set of forming dies from North Devon Firearms Services (UK firm, no longer trading) and my success rate is not good. I've tried mainly forming from .30-06 and get a lot of split necks. I've also tried 8 x 57 but get very crooked necks. I must be missing something I think. Do I need to anneal the brass at any stage?

Thanks in advance

Andrew


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: AndrewS]
      #290053 - 10/11/16 08:09 AM

Hi Andrew - I've had much success forming 6mm Rem, 7x57 and 8x57 brass into 9.3x57's as well as .270 and .30/06 cases to 9.3x57. 9.5x57 will be just as easy.

1st off, due to the excessive headspace in my rifle, I needed a longer body than is on the standard 8x57 necked up to 9.3.

This prompted me to neck the new RP 8x57's (and others) straight - then neck them down using the proper FL die, adjusted in the press to the correct height, to get a crush fit on chambering. By crush fit, I mean that when chambering the round for fireforming, there is considerable pressure on the bolt handle to lower it into position. This shows the case is just a tich (no more, no less)of interference to close the bolt. This ensures the brass fits perfectly in the rifle's chamber - BEFORE it is fired for the first time.

These are the dies I altered and made up for necking the 8x57 etc. and '06 etc. cases straight for the 9.sx57.

I use the same expander dies for necking .30/06 and .35 Whelen cases straight before necking back down to fit my .375/06IMP.

The first one is a .44 magnumb expander die with the expander sharpened a bit to fit smaller mouthed cases. The second one is an old shortened .300 magnum seating die with a "turned" expander button threaded to fit it's 10x32 main shaft. This die is only for expanding case mouths or these cases, so needs no other work as the cases clear it's interior sides.




These are 8x57RP new brass. The second from the left is an 8x57 simply necked up using 9.3x57 Fl die from Hornady, with it's perfectly smooth/polished tapered case mouth expanding plug. This case, when measured, had .019" headspace for my chamber - thus I lubed them inside the neck and necked them straight in one pass which is the 3rd case, then 4th case shows the straightened neck, necked back down using the 9.3x57 Hornady FL die.
I never lost a case doing this and they all formed perfectly - 1st time, every time. Note the FL die must be adjusted in the press to only form a new shoulder for a crush fit. Do not push the shoulder back further than needed.



This set of cases shows the same scenario for forming my .375/06 IMP cases, left to right.
1st- .30/06 case
2nd- .30/06 case necked straight in one pass
3rd -straightened case necked to hold a .375 bullet and give a crush fit in the chamber
4th -fireformed
5th -fireformed case with 270 TSX
6th -fireformed case with 300gr. Hornady RN Interbond



I will note here that I now use a set of Hornady .376 Styer dies for neck-sizing & seating bullets into my .375/06IMP cases.

Prior to changing to these lovely dies & for almost 2 decades, I used a set of dies I altered/cobbled from an old set of .300H&H dies using re-ground (green stone) concrete drills to bore the dies. I made both seating die and neck sizer dies fro them & only had to buy a seating stem. The bore job on the sizer die was perfect and did not need an expander button. I used a hand tool for decapping - a punch and hammer. So much easier with the 376 dies. I also had made a seating die with a sliding case neck alignment gizmo, just like the Hornady seating dies are now made.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member


Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: DarylS]
      #290059 - 10/11/16 10:13 AM

Hi AndrewS,
When I had my 9.5x57 Mod 1910 MS, I just ran 8x57 cases into the FL sizing die and loaded as normal. I had no problems. PPU now make
9.5x57 cases and ammo which is available here in Australia at times. I don't know whether you can get it over there or not.
LesLeeSpeed


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #290062 - 10/11/16 10:35 AM

Les, are you sure about 9.5x57 cases from PPU as it doesn't show up on their website.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #290073 - 10/11/16 01:03 PM

Andrew- my method sounds extended- but in reality it is like using a 3-die set. Expand straight with the first die, then Fl size (the correct amount) and load.

After fireforming, only the sizing and seating dies are needed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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cordite
.333 member


Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
Loc: NW Montana
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: DarylS]
      #290079 - 10/11/16 02:16 PM

Just a few ideas: Always use new brass. Lube the inside of the case mouth before expanding. Expand in small increments or start with brass as close to the finished product as possible (35 whelen, 9.3x62).

If you continue to have trouble, I have had good luck fireforming with no bullet. Put about 12 grains of bullseye or other fast pistol powder in the case, put a little piece of tissue over the powder, fill remainder of case with cornmeal, top with bullet lube, crayon or wax to hold it together, NO BULLET, point gun straight up, fire. Trim to length.


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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member


Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #290081 - 10/11/16 02:32 PM

Quote:

Les, are you sure about 9.5x57 cases from PPU as it doesn't show up on their website.

Waidmannsheil.



Hi,
I saw them at the Shotshow here in Brisbane last year. May have been loaded ammo. I remember thinking "I wish this was around when I had mine"
Could have been Sellior and Bellot, but I don't think so.
I'll make some enquiries up here and see what I can find. Are you after some if I come across any.
Les


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #290092 - 10/11/16 08:21 PM

Les, I already have some brass from Bertram however it has 0.022" headspace in my gun and I am a bit reluctant to fire it. I have a set of CH4 reloading dies which includes an expander to form other brass such as 8x57, however I am a bit of a stickler for the correct head stamp, so if there is some other brass available I would definitely be interested.

I would still like to use the Bertram brass and was wondering if anybody else has any techniques to safely bring the shoulder forward without weakening the cartridge head. I can make another bolt head however that is a lot of work so I was thinking of fireformimg the case with some lubricant on the outside so that the brass doesn't grip the chamber and allows the entire case to stretch rather than only at the head. Any help would be appreciated.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member


Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #290094 - 10/11/16 10:05 PM

Hi Waidmannsheil,
If you expand the neck over size, and then size the neck back down until the case just chambers, that will form a false shoulder to headspace on.
Les


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #290097 - 11/11/16 12:25 AM

Les, thanks for that. Makes perfect sense, I just never considered it with brand new un-fired brass. If I use the CH4 dies to form cases from 8x57 brass, the full length sizing die sets the shoulder in the correct position for a 0.004" headspace, however the neck is a little short. I am just getting the expander die Zenit coated at the moment but as soon as it comes back I will try that.
Depending on the price I would still be interested in some PPU brass if available so if you could find out when you get a chance, that would be greatly appreciated.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26414
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #290099 - 11/11/16 04:58 AM

Quote:

Hi Waidmannsheil,
If you expand the neck over size, and then size the neck back down until the case just chambers, that will form a false shoulder to headspace on.
Les




This is as I explained above by necking straight- then to a crush fit.

When using new 8mm brass, I lost no (zero) cases, when running 8mm out straight (or .30/06 or .35 Whelen) - that is, from 8mm to .43 in the .44 mag expander, & 8mm to .45 with the expander I turned. 1 pass - 0 losses.

When I opened up just over 150 old .30/06 brass, including some .270's, I lost 7 cases to split necks - out of over 150 old cases. Some of that brass had been loaded over 5 times. After forming them to chamber in my rifle, I annealed the old brass before continuing to load them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Vladymere
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: DarylS]
      #290103 - 11/11/16 05:30 AM

I did not read all of the above threads but I would recommend Imperial Sizing Wax for your lubricant.

Vlad


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: Vladymere]
      #290108 - 11/11/16 06:29 AM

Daryl,
thanks for that. I will definitely try that method when the expander comes back from coating.
I use the Redding competition shell holders as they come in 0.002' increments and allow you to accurately adjust for headspace. Unfortunately with the older Bertram brass, which this is, Bruce did not anneal between each stage when forming the brass from a slug. He only annealed at the final stage and consequently the brass had been work hardened beyond the point where it could be softened successfully and consequently much of his earlier product would split necks even after only one or two re-loads. He now anneals between every stage and this problem seems to have gone. The brass I have is the older stock so hopefully I don't have problems.

Vlad,
I have some on order already but thank you anyway for your advice.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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LesLeeSpeed
.300 member


Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #290116 - 11/11/16 08:35 AM

Hi Widmannsheil,
This is much closer to what you are looking for.
https://www.thebarn.net.au/Products/2029...SC%26pageno%3d5
Hope the link works.
I'm pretty sure this was the dealer that had the 9.5 brass.
Les

Edited by LesLeeSpeed (11/11/16 08:36 AM)


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AndrewS
.224 member


Reged: 01/10/12
Posts: 16
Loc: Suffolk, UK
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #290129 - 11/11/16 10:33 AM

All

Many thanks for your replied - lots of things to try. I'll let you know how I get on.

Regards

Andrew


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: AndrewS]
      #290169 - 12/11/16 07:22 AM

Hi Les, thanks for the link. I already have a heap of 9.3x57 brass for another rifle and I realise I can use that for the 9.5 however I would prefer the correct head stamp if possible. I know it is being a bit anal however if I can get some I would prefer to use that. I will give the Barn a try on Monday. Thanks for your help.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Kiwi_bloke
.333 member


Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #290252 - 13/11/16 06:43 PM

I have had problems with split necks and cured it by annealing with molten lead, just 3 seconds immersed up to the shoulder, (no more). Then water quench. Keep the water and any potential splashes well away from the lead and wear PPE like safety glasses. Make sure the primer pocket is blocked with a spent primer or a drop of lead will go into the case and be very hard to remove. You might find that lead does a better job than a flame or restoring cases.

I do have a 9,5x57 M-Sch. I use 9,3x57 Norma cases and one pass in a RCBS FL 9,5x57 M.Sch. die. But I have also converted .30-06. Head space issues can be cured by oversizing the necks, then set the case into a well backed off 9,5x57 die and slowly turn it down until the bolt will close on the case with just light resistance. CH4D tapered expanders do a good job of expanding the neck. If you smoke the neck, you'll be able to more easily see the progress of the neck being sized.

I had a headspace problem with 8x56 M.Sch. The primer would back out half way. Once the neck was oversized, then re-set as above, the primers stayed where they belong.

Only cases with the right headstamp I know are Kynoch Berdan primed. I have reloaded 6,5x54 M. Sch. with Berdans. No real problems except the primer source has since dried up here. But velocity and accuracy were the same as Boxer.

One thought is that, I use a Hornady case concentricity tool. This straightens up the bullets. But it also means the case will, IMHO, form straighter. It makes any load more accurate too.


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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2363
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #290261 - 13/11/16 08:46 PM

Thanks Kiwi, Bertram brass makes cases in both 9.5x57MS and 375 NE. I have the latter as my Model 1910 was sold by Halliday and Co. in London and is proofed as a 375 NE.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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Rothhammer1
.400 member


Reged: 06/01/17
Posts: 1804
Loc: The Redwoods of California
Re: Forming 9.5 x 57 brass... [Re: AndrewS]
      #293766 - 13/01/17 05:43 PM

Use .35 Whelen cases to make your 9.5X57 MS brass.

Hello, all.

I have had no trouble at all forming 9.5X57 (.375 Nitro Express Rimless) from fresh .35 Whelen cases given a single pass through an RCBS two die set.

The neck of .35 being much closer to .375 than several of the others makes it a smooth operation.

Form them full length, then cut and trim to the proper size. Fill with Hornady 3715 (270 g. RN) if you can find them. Be sure to seat to the proper depth, which with Hornady 3715 sits right at the cannelure.

The result will be identical in dimensions, profile, and (unfired) shoulder to the original DWM 531. The originals were 270 grain round nose, soft point.

If you cannot find the 270 grain, go to the 300 grain but adjust your powder charge accordingly. Use round nose projectiles. Otto Schoenauer's magazine is rather particular as to what it's fed. If you use spire points, be ready to feed them one at a time.

Also, load five 'dummy' rounds (no powder or primer) first and cycle them through the magazine and chamber to assure that you've got it right, then proceed to work up your loads.

I recommend that you acquire a few original, unfired, rounds of DWM 531 for comparison.

Hope this helps,
BR.

I have images, original catalog 'cuts' and dimensional drawings, but inserting photos to this site has frustrated me so far.

I have posted several such images to another site, The Firearms Forum, also as Rothhammer1.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

Edited by Rothhammer1 (13/01/17 07:10 PM)


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