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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
More shooting with my Thys 458
      #29202 - 09/04/05 01:40 PM

As I posted about three weeks ago I bought barely a used Marcel Thys side lock in 458wm with the idea that I'd rechamber and reconfigure ejectors to 450NE 31/4" (or rather JJ would do it) and had JJ Perrideu take a look. He sugested leaving it a 458wm and shooting it alot to see how things went.

I've now shot about 60 rounds through it. I shot it when I first got it and then was out of town for a couple of weeks and finally broke free to shoot today. The gun remains "new stiff".

I'm beginning to get used to the recoil but am still not ready to shoot from the bench. 24 rounds today and I was only really wary of the first. And I'm still relearning with older eyes how to shoot open sights, something I've hardly done at all in four or five years and haven't done in volume in many more than that. The gun needs a larger front bead for sure though.

My groups are getting smaller both offhand and off of sticks. Not good enough to tell if a particular load regulates or not but good enough to see how things are likely to play out. It seems that Federal factory ammo will end up the most suitable factory load and will probably shoot well in this gun. As a bonus the rifle doesn't shoot the 350gr Federals too badly either; crossing at 50yds by several inches but good on elevation and totally predictable, but that might have something to do with the reduced percieved recoil.

The front trigger definitely needs to be lightened; as I squeeze the sights wander right and down and I have little trigger control and have to work at dragging the front sight back to where I want to shoot. The back trigger is perfect. I'd shoot rear trigger first but for the fact that I shoot double trigger shotguns so much and so rarely rear first that I'm afraid I'd screw up under pressure so the trigger needs to be lightened.

Ejection remains flawless and I'm confident that it will remain so, at least on the range. On the other hand I can't just drop rounds in the chamber and close the gun. One or the other of the rounds' belts need to be pushed beyond the blade extractor more times than not or the gun won't close. This doesn't take much and I'm sure I can become accustomed to it but its slower than just drop and close and drop and close is what I'm accustomed too for my tens of thousands of shotgun rounds. In addition about once every twenty round or so pushing gently just won't do it and rather than force anything a slight twist of the cartridge sends it properly beyond the belt. This is slow and cumbersome.

As I've mentioned previosly the gun is right handed but I'm a lefty. I continue to be suprised that the gun comes up so well when mounted quickly. I shot a dozen rounds as quick mount then quick rights then lefts as fast as recoil would allow followed by paced but quick reloads and right then left...3x4 shot strings. At 25yds seven shots were under six inches and nine were under eight inches with three lower. Except for the trhree all were roughly centered on POA. I hope to have this performance at 50yds well before my Oct date. I also need to roughen up the leather covered pad since it wants to wander on my shoulder, generally downward.

Given time constraints I'll probably leave the gun 458wm until I return from my Zimbabwe trip in Oct; assuming, as I suspect, that the Federal ammo will shoot well. Unless the loading issue somehow disapears the gun will probably end up a 450NE 31/4".

I want the gun here so I can shoot and shoot and...rather than have the gun with JJ being converted. On the other hand JJ promised a quick turn around even if reregulation were required which he thinks is a fifty/fifty proposition.

All thought and comments or advise encouraged, welcome and appreciated. Any help or sugestions for this newcomer welcome. Also a question about the standard I should be shooting for for quick strings.

Thanks

JPK
PS finally remembered to bring home my good 35mm SLR from my parents home in FLA when we visited so will try to get some decent photos going soon.


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Marrakai
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29209 - 09/04/05 05:20 PM

JPK:
Just checked COTW, and it looks like the .450 NE reamer will clean up a .458 Win Mag chamber by 10 thou or so. If not, you could go for the .500/.450 Magnum NE or the .450 No.2. I know most posters here (including our host!) would favour the latter, but I like the lines of the former cartridge best myself.

Meanwhile, nothing wrong with modern .458 performance on game. If you could solve the loading/extraction problem for belted cases in the break-open gun, you would be an instant millionaire I reckon!

Good luck with it either way.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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AussieMike
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: Marrakai]
      #29211 - 09/04/05 05:28 PM

The upside of that little effort needed to get the cartridge under the extractor is that it holds the cartridge firmly in place while the gun is broken, thus you (or your gunbearer) can carry it in a really safe way cofident that when you close the action for a quick shot it will still be loaded.

I am never absolutely confident of the safety of my doubles when hunting in company esp the pre WWI without intercepting sears.

mike


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Marrakai
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: AussieMike]
      #29213 - 09/04/05 05:40 PM

Mike:
If you carry a double rifle open in the field, the day will soon come when you will not be able to close it in a hurry, and on DG your life may be at risk! A single grass-seed or tiny twig on the flats will prevent a quality double from closing, and it takes several seconds to identify the problem, re-open the gun, determine which side of the lumps the obstruction is on, and clear it. You will invariably take your eyes off the quarry during this process.

I abhor the practice of carrying a double rifle open! It places the inherent reliability and quick-pointing of the double in jeopardy: might as well carry a bolt-gun!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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new_guy
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: Marrakai]
      #29220 - 09/04/05 11:13 PM

In reply to:

If you could solve the loading/extraction problem for belted cases in the break-open gun, you would be an instant millionaire I reckon!




What problems are those? I haven't been able to find anyone who can point to documented cases. Just perpetuation of the "theoretical" possibiliites.

What's you experience been with this problem?

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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JPK
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29247 - 10/04/05 05:47 AM

Marrakai,

I bought the rifle with the idea that it would have to be converted to a rimless round and prior to buying the rifle I had JJ check out the ease and cost of conversion and what cartridges would be suitable. His answer was that it would be easy, not very expensive and, due to action width, 450NE 3 1/4" was the only real choice. And not a bad choice at that.

Thanks for your input, really apreciated

New Guy,

Optimistic as I was about keeping the gun a 458wm I have come to the conclusion that it really needs to be converted to a rimmed or at least beltless round. I think it would probably be just fine with a rimless, beltless cartridge since the blade extractor/ejector system really keeps a good grip on the case.

Unfortunely this good grip causes at least the extra step of pushing the cartridges into the chamber so that the blade clears the belt of the 458wm. About 40% of the time the push is needed. Worse, every so often, maybe one in twenty or thirty, a gentle push doesn't send the cartridge home and it takes more push, or, due to my fear of mucking things up, a slight twist of the cartridge to get the belt to clear the blade. This is slow and awkward.

I would hate to try to load this rifle under pressure, as it is, rather than just drop in a cartridge or two as time allows, close the gun, mount, while pointing, and pull.

I will follow up with more as I shoot this rifle more since it seems that I offer the board a rare first hand account of a shooter with a rimless belted cartridge DGR who has noticed feed issues.

JPK


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500grains
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29250 - 10/04/05 09:33 AM

JPK,

May I ask what it costs to convert a fine double from a belted mag cartridge to 450 no. 2?


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AussieMike
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: Marrakai]
      #29256 - 10/04/05 11:59 AM

Depends on your point of view - my morbid fear is accidentally shooting someone or causing someone to be shot. Having to live with that the rest of my life would be very hard to bear.

Safety is the one major downside with doubles - non intercepting sears on some guns, a safety catch which can be easily moved to the off position and it being impractical to carry the gun with empty chambers.

I was the rider of a motorbike when we were hit by a car on the wrong side of the road - totally unavoidable and not my fault and I still feel bad about my wife being injured and wonder if I could have done more to avoid the collision. My personality, I guess.

mike


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JPK
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29260 - 10/04/05 12:49 PM

500 Grains

I'll look at my notes on Monday before I'll call JJ but my recolection is about $600. This not including reregulation if required. JJ thought that a 50%/50% possibility. Worst case as I recall, without the benefit of my notes, is about $1700 including rechambering, reregulation and reblueing of the barrels, if all were required.

AussieMike,

I definitely hear where your coming from but my thinking is that this rifle has a bolted safety, which I'll keep intact, but also safety sears to prevent accidental discharge. I'm with Marrakai on the open gun issue and though my expeirience with double rifles is near zero I've got tons with double shotguns and can't imagine the issues being any different. When in contact with game the gun needs to be ready to go and the primary safety is pointing it in a safe direction. I've never had an issue with double shotguns and hope and believe I never will with double rifles either.

JPK


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29263 - 10/04/05 01:28 PM

Just noted 500 Grains' question was re rechambering to the 450NE No2. According to JJ this rifle is best rechambered to 450NE 3 1/4" due to the rather slim action width and from what I took from our conversation this is the case with most rifles in 458wm. I'm no smith but from looking at COW (which has lately gone missing... oh children...) and my rifle it seems the size of the 450NE No2 would present issues both with regard to action width and barrel meat at and down from the face. The taper of the barrels being for the shorter 458wm and not for the really long and thicker 450NE No2.

Just a note for the benefit of all, including myself, I bought the rifle with the idea that it should be rechambered. With JJ's recomendation to try it as a 458wm, I'd hoped to save some $'s. This has not worked to my satisfaction though I'm sure plenty of others would be quite satisfied so I'm only back to my original game plan. I'll end up rechambering the rifle. Also since I generally buy only what I intend to keep I'll probably restock the rifle for me, a lefty with an unusually strong desire to shoot guns that fit me. So far I really like this rifle so what might seem to be lots of modifications are pretty much par for the course for me. As a lefty most all guns are projects for me, whether the gun is a shotgun or this rifle.

JPK


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new_guy
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29269 - 10/04/05 02:11 PM

In reply to:

Unfortunely this good grip causes at least the extra step of pushing the cartridges into the chamber so that the blade clears the belt of the 458wm. About 40% of the time the push is needed. Worse, every so often, maybe one in twenty or thirty, a gentle push doesn't send the cartridge home and it takes more push, or, due to my fear of mucking things up, a slight twist of the cartridge to get the belt to clear the blade. This is slow and awkward.




That little ejector (nipple) is spring-loaded (some guns have two on each ejector), and as you slide the cartridge into the chamber, you have to depress the ejector nipple with the side of the cartridge case as it's entering. No, it's not as simple as dropping one in the chamber, but that's the trick to chambering a belted case.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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JPK
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29273 - 10/04/05 03:10 PM

New Guy,

My rifle has one blade which slips between the the cartridge belt and the rim. Its about 1/8 the length of the diametere of the rim of the 458wm. Its located on thr bottom of the barrels, ie, the water table side. I've tried pushing the cartridge down as I load with uncertain results; still seems to hang on the belt. I'll try next time I shoot and would apreciate a more elaborate description of your technique.

JPK


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NE450No2
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29274 - 10/04/05 03:22 PM

JPK
As I have stated in a previous post I have handled your rifle and it is very nice. JJ is correct the 450 3 1/4" would be the correct ctg to rechamber to. I would try New guys technique as well as using a little "thumb" action on the base of the cartridge as I pushed it into the chamber. It may just be a question of finding the right technique.
If you fine a correct technique you might even like keeping it as a 458 Win.

As regards to the 350 grain bullets I have had excellent results on my 450 No2 with 350 gr. and with 300 gr. in my 450/400. The key is to use the exact same powder charge that regulates with the heavy bullets.
I would think that in your 458 that with the 350 grain Hornady RN that somewhere around 70 grains of IMR 3031 should work.
I would start with 68 grains of IMR 3031 and work up one grain at a time.


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500grains
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29295 - 11/04/05 07:48 AM

In reply to:

I'll look at my notes on Monday before I'll call JJ but my recolection is about $600. This not including reregulation if required. JJ thought that a 50%/50% possibility. Worst case as I recall, without the benefit of my notes, is about $1700 including rechambering, reregulation and reblueing of the barrels, if all were required.




That is way cheap! Personally I would do it for the peace of mind of having a rimmed cartridge.


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new_guy
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29306 - 11/04/05 12:16 PM

In reply to:

would apreciate a more elaborate description of your technique.




I'll try a photo.



Follow me?

They'll never be able to be "dropped" into the chamber, but once you get the feel of holding down the ejector with the side of the case, you simply "push" them in one fluid motion, i.e.: you're no long "forcing in" the last 1/4" of the case.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com


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NE450No2
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: new_guy]
      #29307 - 11/04/05 01:11 PM

new guy,
Great photo.
JPK, work on the "technique". Once you get it figured out, and have practiced it some, you will be good to go.
Just like loading the magazine of a bolt rifle requires a little technique in getting the rounds in the proper position in the magazine, each type of rifle has its own manual of arms.


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Marrakai
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: new_guy]
      #29310 - 11/04/05 01:59 PM

NewGuy:
With your illustrated technique, what happens when the front of the belt hits the flat plate of the extractor?

Great idea BTW, picture is certainly worth a thousand words!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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JPK
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: Marrakai]
      #29324 - 11/04/05 11:57 PM

New Guy,

Thanks for the photo and description. Later today I'll pull out some fired cases and give it a go. I've kind of been doing as you describe but will concentrate on this for a trail. It seems the forward edge of the belt is the issue.

The blades on my rifle are longer than the blades on the rifle in the photo, ie, their length constitutes a greater percentage of the circumferance of the shell. I took photos Sat, with my SLR camera and will get the film to the shop today and have them put the photos on a disk so photos should be forthcoming.

Will report back with results.

JPK


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new_guy
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: Marrakai]
      #29327 - 12/04/05 01:19 AM

In reply to:

With your illustrated technique, what happens when the front of the belt hits the flat plate of the extractor?




The belt simply slides past the extractor, with no effort. If you don't depress the extractor when chambering a round, some cartridges "stop" at the extractor and require a "push" past it. The latter is typically the true with minimally resized cases... FL sized and factory cases enter with no additional effort. that's kinda wordy... make sense?

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JPK
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: new_guy]
      #29335 - 12/04/05 08:33 AM

New Guy, 450 No2, Marrakai,

Tried New Guy's technique this afternoon with some fired Fed plated brass and I have to say that the feeding went alot better than the other day just pushing the rounds into the chambers. I figured the fired brass would be a tougher test than factory fresh rounds and it was, I think, if for no other reason than that they don't weigh near as much and thus don't have the same momentum when you try to send them home.

With your technique most of the time the case slid into the chamber with a little bit of effort and a slight snap which let you know it when home. I tried about a half dozen different cases and tried each in each chamber. Most tries with all but one case went home smoothly in either chamber, occasionally a bit of easy extra effort was required, as 450 NO2 suggested - no big deal and you could do it blind, without looking.

One case hung up every time in both chambers. The blade jammed on the belt twice hard enough to get me to poke it out with a cleaning rod rather than try to force anything. This never happened with the new ammo I was shooting; and only once every 20 or 30 tries did the rounds resist my earlier less skilful attemps to send them home.

Curiosity got me to try to chamber a live round, something I'm loath to do at home. So I sent the round past the belt in each barrel without closing the breach. No problems with the technique. In fact noticed that when dropped vertically the round went home on its own.

This has me thinking that by chambering every fresh round a couple of times in each chamber and "discarding" the difficult to seat rounds (no different than running each cartridge through the action of a bolt rifle intended for DG), in combination with New Guy's technique and 450 NO2's gentle thumb preasure that the reliability of the feed will skyrocket. The procedure is not awkward or too time consuming. In fact with a little drill it could easily become second nature.

I'm looking forward to trying this out when I shoot later this week. I'll report back how things go on a new thread.


Many thanks,

JPK


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new_guy
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: JPK]
      #29336 - 12/04/05 08:49 AM

Glad that it seems to be working for you. Despite your hesitancy to chamber live cartridges at home, I would suggest that they don't represent the loading experience accurately - as they are "chamber sized" from firing and have not been resized to factory dimensions... the lack of a bullet, i.e.: sharp case mouth wouldn't do anything to help you either.

Seat some bullets in FL sized, unprimed cases to practice.

My double rifle experience prior to the 375 was a 470 and it does take a little getting used to - to chamber a belted round, but once you get used to the feel, it becomes second nature.

--------------------
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JPK
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: new_guy]
      #29337 - 12/04/05 09:15 AM

I gathered that the fired cases would in general be a more difficult test for sizing and "smoothness" ie no bullet, and weight issues too. The fact that they went in alot smoother with your technique than the new ammo from the other day with my earlier "technique" was reason for optimism.

Since the new ammo only gave alot of trouble every 20 rounds or so I'm betting that pre testing by chambering new rounds will weed out the tough to chamber rounds that for whatever reason hang up. I'm also betting that the one fired case that hung up today was one from one of the two new rounds that gave trouble last friday. I don't reload so I'll have to use live ammo for further test and thus I'll have to wait til I get to the range or my hunting club later this week.

JPK


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4seventy
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: new_guy]
      #29866 - 22/04/05 10:43 AM

This thread sure highlights the reason for using flanged cartridges in doubles on DG IMO.
Take a pair of 500 3 inch NE cartridges and they'll almost find their own way into their chambers without having to worry about pushing and sliding and whatever else.
This "locating" the extractor pawl into the groove business, must surely cost time and create a possability of a fumbled reload IMO.

OK for non serious use but not really desirable for game that has a high price tag or a bad disposition.




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AussieMike
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: 4seventy]
      #29869 - 22/04/05 11:13 AM

I think it is the belt that is the issue - in my 318 WR SBS the shells stop a little short but are pushed in on closing the action. My 375 Brno U/O does the same thing, thanks to the wider opening of the U/O.

mike


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4seventy
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Re: More shooting with my Thys 458 [Re: AussieMike]
      #29877 - 22/04/05 01:23 PM

In reply to:

I think it is the belt that is the issue




I agree.
Sadly though, if the object is to use easy to find low cost brass, there is very little choice if the rifle is intended for dangerous game.
Pretty well all the cheap easy to get big game cartridge cases have the belt.
Anything that doesn't aint cheap or isn't really ideal for big DG.


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