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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Need help - Mauser Model C
#286236 - 09/08/16 03:47 AM

I am importing a Model C from Sweden, but ATF seems unconvinced that the rifle is a commercial variant and not a rifle built on a military action. Unfortunately my Speed and Olsen books are in the US and I am out of the country until late August.

Can anyone supply a scanned page from one of the books, or another source, with photo, which states the Model C is a commercial rifle? (I've looked on the web but haven't been able to find anything appropriate)

Any help would be much appreciated.

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FrankFarmer
.300 member

Reged: 06/08/06
Posts: 172
Loc: Florida USA.

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mckinney]
#286241 - 09/08/16 04:49 AM

Send your email address to Frankframer@rogers.com will send you scan.
Regards,
Frank

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: FrankFarmer]
#286247 - 09/08/16 12:22 PM

Email sent, thank you very much!

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FrankFarmer
.300 member

Reged: 06/08/06
Posts: 172
Loc: Florida USA.

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mckinney]
#286248 - 09/08/16 01:55 PM

Pages scanned, please advise when you receive.

Regards,
Frank

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: FrankFarmer]
#286254 - 09/08/16 11:15 PM

Let us all know how this works out.
I would think that the BU or BUG commercial proofs on any Oberndorf sporter would show that the action is of commercial origin.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: Huvius]
#286258 - 10/08/16 02:07 AM

Will do, but I think this one may prove tougher than expected. The Speed book mentions that military style bolts were used in some of the Model C actions, as well as military barrels. My understanding of the import rules is that sporting rifles built on military actions are not importable. That raises the question of just what is a military action. Mauser was a manufacturer of both military and sporting rifles, so if they happened to use a military bolt in a sporting rifle, does that make it a military action? The importer has given me more time, so my current plan is to see if the Olsen book has a more helpful description of the Model C. Speed is bad about jumping around all over the place, repeatedly misspelling words ("Griffen" and Howe), bungling photo descriptions etc. (still love the book though).

The rifle in question has double set triggers, cal 8x57, serial number in the 70 thousand range.

I've imported several Model A's, B's and S's but this is the first attempt at C.

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mckinney]
#286260 - 10/08/16 02:29 AM

Here's an image if the link works. From Walter Borg about 2 auctions ago.

http://i583.photobucket.com/albums/ss275/netcurrentassetvalue/image.jpeg

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Igorrock
.400 member

Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 1636
Loc: Finland

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mckinney]
#286265 - 10/08/16 04:39 AM

In my eyes this rear sight seems to be model which any military rifle do not have.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3522
Loc: Colorado

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: Igorrock]
#286267 - 10/08/16 06:23 AM

Give Steve Bertram a call.
www.bertramandco.com

He has experience bringing in commercial Mausers.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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dons
.333 member

Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Essex

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mckinney]
#286268 - 10/08/16 06:37 AM

I don't mean to confuse matters here but the photo does not look like a Type C. I don't see a military stepped barrel and the sling swivel on the stock is not in the typical Type C location. The shape of the stock with the reenforced side panels suggest an early Type B. Type C did not have these panels. If I am right, this settles the question of military vs commercial rifle. JMO

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Gen_Hicks
.300 member

Reged: 15/10/12
Posts: 136
Loc: Lowveld, South Africa

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: dons]
#286272 - 10/08/16 07:42 AM

In agreement with Don. Thats a early type B rifle

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: Gen_Hicks]
#286296 - 10/08/16 06:15 PM

I agree that it's a Model B, but unfortunately I'm stuck with the auction catalog description. Here it is (via google translate):

Rifles, German, make: Mauser, cylinderrepeter, model C "Spitzer Bullet" Sporting Rifle. (See Jon Speed's book Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles "page 111-112, cal. 8x57JS, tillvnr. 70110, barrel length 60cm, position, adjustable sight from 50-1000 meters, kind pressure of checked piston pistol grip, bakelitbakkappa, rembyglar, gun made in 1912, is in good condition

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dons
.333 member

Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Essex

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mckinney]
#286301 - 11/08/16 01:18 AM

mckinney: Assuming that you wanted a Type C and placed a bid based on the description, it would seem that the auction house misrepresented the rifle. Doesn't this let you off the hook?

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: dons]
#286303 - 11/08/16 03:04 AM

Hi Don

Well, I bought the rifle because of the condition and appearance (although I haven't seen it in the flesh), half suspecting it was a Model B all along. I've had good look on condition with guns from Borg. If I can't import it, they will offer it in the upcoming October auction and I should come out more or less even. I'd rather have the rifle, though, so will work to get ATF approval.

I'll make the argument through my importer that it's a B based on stock shape, double set trigger, lack of stepped barrel, and position of sling swivels and that - even if it's a C - it's still a sporting rifle.

One thing puzzles me though - the reference to "spitzer bullet" in the catalog description. Do you know if any Model B's had this engraved on the receiver? (I don't know that this rifle does, but I can't think of any other reason why the cataloguer would have felt compelled to mention it)

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dons
.333 member

Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Essex

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mckinney]
#286308 - 11/08/16 05:47 AM

It is obvious that the auction house had no clue what this rifle was, so they went through Speed's book and picked out a similar rifle in the Type C section on page 111-112. on page 112 there is a photo of a Tauscher US imported featherweight Type C that was made to fire 7x57 & 8x57 Spitzer military bullets. The cataloguer must have thought that would look really good in the description. PS: The Serial Number 70110 automatically identifies the rifle as a Mauser commercial sporting rifle.

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Vladymere
.300 member

Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: dons]
#286313 - 11/08/16 07:39 AM

The photos show a rear square bridge. I am not aware of any square bridge military actions.

Vlad

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dons
.333 member

Reged: 18/08/07
Posts: 431
Loc: Essex

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: Vladymere]
#286322 - 11/08/16 10:02 AM

Vlad: Out of the 4 photos, there is only one photo of the rifle in question. The other 3 with a square bridge are a different rifle.

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Vladymere
.300 member

Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: dons]
#286326 - 11/08/16 11:09 AM

Ooops!

Vlad

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mehulkamdar
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: Vladymere]
#286328 - 11/08/16 12:11 PM

So, a bolt action rifle - even if it might have been a military firearm seventy plus years ago - is now threatening to the bureaucrats at the ATF? Absolutely ridiculous!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: mehulkamdar]
#286347 - 12/08/16 03:18 AM

The ban on importing "military weapons" was for the benefit of US firearms manufacturers, which were suffering from a deluge of surplus military weapons in the '50's and '60's. Look at some of the back issues of the American Rifleman, and you'll see what I mean,

As a young Marine lieutenant stationed in Quantico, VA in 1963, I was close to Interarms' retail outlet "Ye Olde Hunter" in Alexandria, VA. On a visit there, I could not make up my mind between a Mauser HsC, a Walther P38, and a high number 1903 Springfield, each for $35.00, so I bought all three.

I still have the Springfield.

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pjaln
.375 member

Reged: 08/06/06
Posts: 708
Loc: massachusetts ,U.S.A.

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: xausa]
#286368 - 12/08/16 11:08 AM

its possible that the double set triggers were added at a later date ,but the gun is definitely an early type B at least in style......paul

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mckinney
.400 member

Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa

Re: Need help - Mauser Model C [Re: pjaln]
#289237 - 20/10/16 01:26 AM

I'm pleased to report a happy ending to this one. After the import was initially denied, I sent some excerpts from the Speed book and others pointing out that the rifle was actually a Type B. My importers resubmitted the application with the research material. They then got a call from a deputy director at ATF, who said she agreed! Not only that, but she agreed to show the rifle as a Type C on the ATF form to avoid any problems in Sweden or the U.S. with a mismatch in descriptions! So, import approved and will be on its way soon! Not too bad, huh?!

A special thanks to FrankFarmer on this forum for providing me scans of key pages in the Speed book.

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