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Morten1
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Reged: 18/12/14
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Loc: Norway
Secound set of DR barrels for B5
      #288884 - 10/10/16 01:18 AM

I have a James Woodward & Sons 'The automatic' in 300 HH fl. I am considering to have a secound set of barrels made suitable for B5. It can not bee a big puncher, but what caliber would you guys recommend that is reasnably avaliable, that the rifle could handle.

My thoghts are 375 fl or 450 ne but idealy something in between?

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pondoro62
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Morten1]
      #288893 - 10/10/16 08:04 PM

I would suggest 9,3x74R or maybe .375H&H Flanged as you say..

I saw you rifle at the gunsmith (beautiful rifle BTW...a rare classic), but perhaps the Woodward action is a bit on the small/light side for a .450 NE..?

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Morten1
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: pondoro62]
      #288897 - 10/10/16 09:32 PM

It must bee Dumbo proof. Ie, 375 or more,
The idea is to make it B5 options.

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Postman
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Morten1]
      #288899 - 10/10/16 10:26 PM

I love the .375 Flanged Magnum. It is a highly versatile cartridge that can be used on smaller big game, and is street legal for the big 5. Whether I'd want to use it on anything larger than leopard or lion is a question I haven't quite decided for myself. Would it work on buffalo? Sure it would. If the shot is well placed using a high quality premium bullet. My VERY limited experience suggests that things can and do go bad and lots of extra power is a very nice thing to have on tap. I'm absolutely uncomfortable using the .375 Flanged Magnum on elephant, or non brain shots on hippo.

The .375 Flanged Magnum is not the easiest cartridge/brass to find, so if your rifle is capable of handling a larger cartridge, it may be worth looking into a .450-400 which seems to be quite a bit easier to find with Hornady now producing ammo and brass for it. I'd prefer going to a .450NE if your existing rifle frame will accommodate it.

How your existing frame will balance with a heavier barrel set may be another consideration. It would be best to talk with a highly knowledgable double rifle builder and gunsmith to see what is possible and what is sensible. It may be more viable to simply get a used big double for big 5 hunting and enjoy your present rifle in its current caliber. I commissioned a double rifle with two barrel sets because I thought it would be easier to travel with, but financially, it would have been significantly cheaper to buy two good used doubles in a medium and big bore, and realistically, probably not much more inconvenient to travel with than a single rifle with two barrel sets. Is there another factor in Norway that would compel one to wish to have only a single rifle, such as gun control laws that make it difficult to own multiple rifles?

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Rockdoc
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Postman]
      #288927 - 11/10/16 06:07 PM

If not wanting to go too big the 375Flanged Mag would be perfect and you can probably readily buy the excellent Norma brass from next door!

The 450NE could be nice too, depending what the expected weight and balance of the rifle would be.

My 500/450 3 1/4" Mag ( made in 1906) came with a set of 375H&H Flanged Mag barrels by H&H (made early-mid '50s), perfect. But it does make for a heavier 375 than I might prefer. Whereas going from 300H&H to 375H&H may be just what the doctor ordered!

Cheers,

Chris

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Rockdoc]
      #288928 - 11/10/16 06:22 PM

If you need to go a little bigger, the 400 H&H is around, but is a belted case. I'm not aware of a flanged equivalent.

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Morten1
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #289138 - 16/10/16 03:59 PM

Ive got some interest in 450/400 ne, this looks like a good round and would doo a nice Job on moose as well,

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Postman
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Morten1]
      #289177 - 18/10/16 03:17 AM

The .450-400 is basically a necked down .450NE.... If you have enough receiver material to mate with a barrel set of sufficient girth to handle the 450-400, you have enough to handle the .450NE.... The actual barrels could be slightly slimmer and trimmer on the 450-400 once they've been tapered down from the chamber area.... The balance of the finished rifle would be the deciding factor for me........ I'd prefer the .450NE because of the much wider selection of projectiles in the .458 caliber. The .470 and .500NE cartridges have a slightly larger rim and case head than the .450NE.... But only slightly. The .375 Flanged Magnum is a different (smaller) sized beast all together.

It really boils down to two questions, the second of which depends upon the answer to the first:

1. What does a talented and knowledgable gunsmith with sound experience building double rifles deem possible?
2. What caliber do you prefer?

In the final analysis, it is really a question of what makes you happy and how much you'd be willing to spend once the gunsmith has decreed what is "the Art of the possible".

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ozhunter
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Postman]
      #289281 - 21/10/16 10:46 PM

375F

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Postman
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: ozhunter]
      #289282 - 21/10/16 11:57 PM

For my personal choice I too would choose the .375 FL Mag.

It's a detuned .375 H&H..... Mine clocks about 100 FPS slower than the belted version and for me it offers a far greater level of versatility. The smallest critter I've used it for is a red fox, afnd I'm totally comfortable to scale it up to moose and the like. Big bears? Yup. Runty deer? Yup. Caribou at a distance? Reasonably yup. The lack of a scope is the limiting factor for me. It covers off 99% of the hunting I do...... I do not have opportunity to hunt DG except for maybe a couple of times, so I'd rather have something more versatile because I'll get more use out of it with less weight, less muzzle blast and less recoil. I do have much larger calibers to use as a dedicated Buffalo/big DG rifle.

Load it up with a regulated load of 300 grain TSX, Woodies, Swifts, or Hydras, and I'm good to go pretty much anywhere.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Postman]
      #289286 - 22/10/16 01:55 AM

The Woodward Automatic was built for black powder cartridges. I would not have barrels made for a high intensity cartridge. The .450NE was among the highest pressure of the NE rounds at 17 tons. Yet the .375 Flanged Magnum even surpasses that with its proof pressure of 18 tons. Compare that to the typical black powder proof of 10 tons.

Yes I have a Woodward Automatic chambered for the .450/400 3-1/4" BPE. Yes it did pass nitro proof at some point in the late 20's or early 30's. Does that make my rifle a .450/400 NE? NOT FOR ME!

Link to my rifle: Woodward Automatic


Your idea in regard to your Woodward Automatic is misguided. I advise against it. What I haven't explored is how your rifle got to be chambered in .300 Flanged. That's already across the line, but another story.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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93x64mm
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: CptCurl]
      #289300 - 22/10/16 08:42 AM

Quote:

The Woodward Automatic was built for black powder cartridges. I would not have barrels made for a high intensity cartridge. The .450NE was among the highest pressure of the NE rounds at 17 tons. Yet the .375 Flanged Magnum even surpasses that with its proof pressure of 18 tons. Compare that to the typical black powder proof of 10 tons.

Yes I have a Woodward Automatic chambered for the .450/400 3-1/4" BPE. Yes it did pass nitro proof at some point in the late 20's or early 30's. Does that make my rifle a .450/400 NE? NOT FOR ME!

Link to my rifle: Woodward Automatic


Your idea in regard to your Woodward Automatic is misguided. I advise against it. What I haven't explored is how your rifle got to be chambered in .300 Flanged. That's already across the line, but another story.

Curl


Wow that is one very nice rifle CC!
No wonder you want to use as BP only. Original Nitro loads was between 16.5 & 17.5 tons!
A note to consider mate however is in Graeme Wright's book his load that was pressure tested in England using 400grain Woodleighs & IMR4831 was under 11 tons for 2070fps!
He didn't have any NFB or BP loads for that round but some original BP loads for the 450 x3 1/4 were up to 12 ton!
Enjoy your new baby!

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Rockdoc
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #289304 - 22/10/16 02:11 PM

That is a gorgeous rifle CC! Simply stunning and the condition! A good weight for that cartridge too!

With respect to pressures, I have found a low enough velocity, with some powders, to correspond to regulation means the primers protrude, from I am reliably told, the case gripping the chamber walls but the pressure being too low to drive the case back. Increasing the powder charge by a couple of grains fixes this problem. All NE loads in Tropical load proofed doubles, with the 500/450 31/4" Magnum IIRC (or perhaps the 500 3 1/4", I could check my notes). This was with H4350 (AR2209 here). No issues with RE15 and a Kynoch wad.

From Graeme Wright's work modern load pressures using the correct powders are quite under the old factory loads listed, as 93x64mm states above.

Edited by Rockdoc (22/10/16 02:12 PM)

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Postman
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: CptCurl]
      #289313 - 23/10/16 01:54 AM

Quote:

The Woodward Automatic was built for black powder cartridges. I would not have barrels made for a high intensity cartridge. The .450NE was among the highest pressure of the NE rounds at 17 tons. Yet the .375 Flanged Magnum even surpasses that with its proof pressure of 18 tons. Compare that to the typical black powder proof of 10 tons.

Yes I have a Woodward Automatic chambered for the .450/400 3-1/4" BPE. Yes it did pass nitro proof at some point in the late 20's or early 30's. Does that make my rifle a .450/400 NE? NOT FOR ME!

Link to my rifle: Woodward Automatic


Your idea in regard to your Woodward Automatic is misguided. I advise against it. What I haven't explored is how your rifle got to be chambered in .300 Flanged. That's already across the line, but another story.

Curl



This is the viewpoint that has been missing from this discussion. It is also why I have been qualifying my opinions with "upon the sound advice of a competent gunsmith with experience with double rifle building in particular". I have my favourite cartridges as do most folk, but if the frame wasn't built to take it, one would be well advised to move on to a different approach.

Sometimes one must rise above the emotional attachment and apply a much more pragmatic approach. Find another good used double that is already chambered in your favorite flavor and will handle the pressures of a nitro based cartridge. It will be much more cost effective at the end of the day and you won't have to fudge your loads trying to make something of it that it isn't. The notion that you're looking to do a rebarrel tells me that it isn't money that is your consideration given that a new barrel set is VERY expensive and likely at least as much as buying a good used Merkel etc. If I'm wrong and money is your driver, I don't know what to tell you at that point.

Most respectfully,

Postman

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93x64mm
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Postman]
      #289321 - 23/10/16 07:24 AM

Postman, you are correct in every way; that is why actions & barrels are proofed in the first place!
In no circumstance am I suggesting using a low pressure, yet full NE load in an un-proofed (for Nitro) BP rifle!
Considering that if the rifle in question has the correct proof mark stampings, then what is wrong with formulating a typical NE load that runs at a lower pressure than conventionally proofed if the owner so desires?
If we decide to run BP or even NFB loads in our rifles as well then that's what reloading is all about, learning & having a lot of fun in the process using older rifles - albeit safely!
93x64mm

Edited by 93x64mm (23/10/16 07:37 AM)

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Postman
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #289335 - 23/10/16 12:25 PM

Quote:

Postman, you are correct in every way; that is why actions & barrels are proofed in the first place!
In no circumstance am I suggesting using a low pressure, yet full NE load in an un-proofed (for Nitro) BP rifle!
Considering that if the rifle in question has the correct proof mark stampings, then what is wrong with formulating a typical NE load that runs at a lower pressure than conventionally proofed if the owner so desires?
If we decide to run BP or even NFB loads in our rifles as well then that's what reloading is all about, learning & having a lot of fun in the process using older rifles - albeit safely!
93x64mm



Agree: Reloading is a marvellous hobby and one that drives a great deal of enjoyment and satisfaction.

If the rifle is properly proofed for a particular load and someone wants to "detune" loads, well of course, why not? I was commenting under the assumption that we have a rifle that is NOT appropriately proofed, and we are trying to create a full on nitro barrel set, then fudging reduced loads to make it shoot safely...... That just makes no sense to me at all given the money involved to create this handicapped situation.

I too build NFB loads in my full nitro proofed doubles to play at much reduced recoil and to create loads that might be usable on lighter game as well.. This is all part of the fun and there's nothing wrong with that.

Edited by Postman (23/10/16 12:27 PM)

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Morten1
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Postman]
      #289360 - 24/10/16 12:11 PM

Interesting. The gun was originally made for 303 in 1912, got New barrels by fanzoy in the 50's in 308 Win. When i bouth it in 06 I rechambered it to 300 fl. And had it London proofed.

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Postman
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Morten1]
      #289361 - 24/10/16 12:19 PM

Quote:

Interesting. The gun was originally made for 303 in 1912, got New barrels by fanzoy in the 50's in 308 Win. When i bouth it in 06 I rechambered it to 300 fl. And had it London proofed.



If it is nitro proofed, then it is nitro proofed, however, and it's a big "however", I am not in the least familiar with this particular model of firearm and don't have a clue one way or the other if it is or isn't suitable. Please check with a knowledgable and qualified double rifle gunsmith for the final word on what is or is not possible, safe and or practical. I'm sure that with all the discussion we've had to-date, several members here would be very interested in the outcome, however it may turn out.

All the best,

Postman

Edited by Postman (24/10/16 12:20 PM)

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TH44
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Postman]
      #289393 - 25/10/16 10:38 AM

It would definitely have been Nitro proofed in 1912 if chambered for the .303

Plus one for Postman's comments

TH44

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: TH44]
      #289419 - 26/10/16 07:23 AM

Yes Woodward did chamber the Automatic in .303. Perhaps it is strong enough to hold.

But the Automatic is a small action with wood in proportion. My .450/400 3-1/4" BPE weighs just under 8-1/2 lbs. That's just right for the black powder round for which it originally was built. Mine passed nitro proof at some point.



Really, how do you think my rifle will handle full nitro loads? At 8 lbs. 7 oz. it is going to be a handful. And do you think the petite stock is going to stand up to such punishment it was never designed to take?

Perhaps I should raise the ante and have a set of .450 NE barrels made for mine. That's the exact same head size, and Woodward chambered the Automatic in .450 3-1/4" BPE, the exact same case.

No thanks. Mine's nitro proofed, but I'm not shooting NE loads in it.

I'm not trying to be a know-it-all or to rain on anybody's parade. I've made a lifetime collecting double rifles, and I've learned a few points along the way. But as they say, YMMV.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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OahuKaneohe
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: CptCurl]
      #289425 - 26/10/16 09:18 AM

I have a Woodward factory chambered in .303 British here:


Full length shot Purdey records state that it was made in 1897 weighs 9 lbs, 5 oz.



Proofed for 216 grain bullets over 38 grains of rifleite:


side plate:


Bolted safety:


The DGJ of Summer '93 has an article written by Doug Tate Covering "The Automatic" by Woodward.

Here is a photo of three examples, l-r a .303, a 400 BPE and a 450 BPE:




Please read the caption, the author states that the receiver of the .303 is as wide as the 450 BPE.

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Postman
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: OahuKaneohe]
      #289426 - 26/10/16 10:07 AM

Yes, reading the caption suggests that the nitro proofed .303 is the same size as the 450BPE leading one to believe that the designers felt that the stress of a .303 is similar to a .450BPE, but this in no way could be extrapolated to suggest that it could take the pounding of a medium or big bore nitro express load.

I'm with Curl on this one. If one wants to potentially destroy what by all accounts appears to be an incredibly beautiful rifle by stressing it well beyond its design parameters by using a .400NE or .450 NE load in it, that would be a serious pity.

What we do know is that a .450BPE load should work based on the manufacturers building it in the .450BPE.

Edited by Postman (26/10/16 11:30 AM)

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OahuKaneohe
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: Postman]
      #289430 - 26/10/16 11:08 AM

I agree with Curl and Postman.

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Morten1
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Re: Secound set of DR barrels for B5 [Re: OahuKaneohe]
      #289494 - 28/10/16 02:54 AM

Very good point gents. I appreciated alot and it have had me rethink the idea. Thats why i wanted to run the idea you guys.
Though i Just sendt purdey an email requesting there opinion on the matter.

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