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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz
      #288314 - 25/09/16 02:20 AM

I'm wondering what others feel about the level of accuracy needed to make them feel comfortable and to have confidence in their hunting rifles?

To me, practical accuracy demands that the bullet needs to hit a circle no larger than the size of the vital zone, HOWEVER that in and of itself does not inspire my confidence in my rifle. It is a weird thing, but if I have a rifle in hand that I know can shoot teeny tiny groups, I carry with me great confidence in my ability to connect with my target. On the flip side, if I know the rifle isn't so stellar, my confidence is greatly diminished, for example a rifle that stays within a 12" circle at 100 yards would not make me feel terribly comfortable deer hunting because I subconsciously feel like I'm just wildly throwing lead, even at shorter distances like 50 yards..... If my rifle shoots a 2" group at 100 yards, it still feels sloppy to me when hunting distances stretch to say 200 yards, but I'd feel ok at 100''' with it and I've actually passed up several shots over the years because I had doubts about connecting with stellar precision.

Calibers have a lot to do with it, but let's assume for the sake of argument that the rifles are using cartridges of sufficient power to slay deer size game and let's focus on the accuracy questions as it relates to the rifles themselves.


In light of the parameters loosely defined above, here are some examples of my most accurate HUNTING rifles that I found to be truly outstanding (this excludes for me heavy "impractical for hunting" target rifles like the TRG that shoot 1 hole groups, etc)

Most accurate at long(er) range:

Blaser K95
Blaser R93
Several Sako rifles
Weatherby Accumark

Notably absent is the Remington 700. Admittedly I have had some really good accuracy with some of these, but I am narrowing my list to the truly awe inspiring accuracy levels of the best of the best right out of the box and for me, the 700 just didn't make the grade.

Some examples that I found adequate to make me feel comfortable if the distances don't stretch too far past 100 yards

Weatherby Ultralight
Sako Finnlight
Remington 760 Gamemaster
Heym and Merkel double rifles unscoped.

Some examples that I wouldn't feel comfortable shooting big game with except for VERY short ranges:

?????? This one has me a bit stumped. I'd say the Ruger Deerfield, but that's more the cartridge vs the rifle itself because the .44 magnum it is chambered in hits the ground 30 feet in front of the target when sighted in at 50 yards.


Maybe the entire question is misguided because I do know that even my mid range choices can and do take game at quite long ranges and are capable of same. Maybe I should ask a more scientific question, like: who has had hunting rifles that shoot less than 1/2 MOA? Oh well. I didn't frame up the question that way. I left lots of ambiguity and potential emotion on the table, but I don't want to rethink or retype my post because I am essentially lazy.

Edited by Postman (25/09/16 08:41 AM)

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Postman]
      #288317 - 25/09/16 05:42 AM

The true answer is that many/most cannot achieve the true accuracy that their rifles are capable of.

One of the mates on here shoots comp as well as hunting..he wants his rifles to be shooting coke bottle lids and I`m sure he is horrified when I say "oh thats good enough" meaning on hearing me relating to say my 358NM shooting an inch left and 2 inches high @ a 100 as "good enough for me"

A two inch group for bush deer hunting is good enough for me,my rifles can be tuned far better especially when some have hand loads rolled for them but shooting over the bench for me is just plain fucking boring,true!

After all I am hunting a big solid animal with a 20 + square inch kill zone and a lot of the time its off the shoulder shooting or leaning on a tree.

Do i need to wring the 'extra' out of the rifle in this case? Nope!

I had a hind cold broadside @ 30 yards yesterday morning..a 225 Woodleigh Hydro waiting in the .358 NM, a rifle thats shooting as outlined above..she wouldnt have noticed anything. I squeezed down to leaving a flys weight on the trigger then decided that the recovery work involved was too hard for me.

The .220 Swift tuning? Well thats a different tale of course.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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szihn
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Reged: 24/06/07
Posts: 2121
Loc: United States
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: gryphon]
      #288320 - 25/09/16 08:06 AM

Big open subject.

Accuracy is relative to what is being hunting and how it's being hunted.

When I use my bamboo/fiberglass long bow and wood arrows, I think 8" at 30 yards is good for me.

When I hunt with a revolver I consider 2" at 25 yards and 8" at 100 yards OK.

When I use a flintlock rifle I consider 4" at 100 to be fine.

When I use any modern rifle, on probably 95% of all game I hunt I love it when I get sub-MOA (which I do in many cases) but I have to admit that if I have a bullet/ammo/rifle combination that gives me 2 MOA, that's probably about all I can truthfully use.

I cannot hold better than 2 MOA on demand anymore with anything once I have no bench-rest. I can shoot 1-1/2" now and then, but not on demand, and I can only do that from a prone position which I only get to use maybe 1 time in 4 when I am hunting.

A man that can shoot 3" at 100 yards from sitting every time will nearly always out kill any man that can hold 1/2" at 100 yards, but only shoots from a bench.

Most shooters that think they are good because they can shoot small groups with a bench rest cannot hit a soda can more then one time in 8 at 200 yards from any position, when you take their bench away from them.

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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
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Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Postman]
      #288321 - 25/09/16 08:13 AM

I too like my rifles to shoot as tight as possible. Apart from the psych side of things there is the practical. That is if a rifle shoots 1.5" groups at 100 you then add in your shooting method in the field -free hand, or some form of rest- and the associated wobbles, could give you a 6" group at 100. A rifle that shoots 1" will dive you a 4" spread. So the tighter group instill more confidence and less stress, so better shooting, when in the field.

Talk about the Psych side of things. With a semi auto I am happy with a 2" group-from the prone, supported position- but would not except this from a bolt action. Go figure.

Accurate rifles.

some of my Rem 700's
CZ550
Steyr Prohunter
Browning X Bolt.

Of these the Rems are the only reliable indicator as I have had numerous of these where as the others only one or two.

With any of the above I would feel confident taking a 400mt shot on some thing the size of a pig if I had to.

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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Rule303]
      #288322 - 25/09/16 09:58 AM

The problem with most of us is we own too many rifle's (shotguns handguns). I personally don't shoot any of mine enough to feel supremely confident in any of them. I have decided to spend more of my time shooting off hand. In the area of the US that I live in a gun that shoots a 2" group at one hundred yards is more than sufficient to deer hunt with. With most deer being taken at less than 50yds. If you can consistently place your shoots in a 4" group at 100yds off hand you should easily kill a deer at 50yds. Now if you live in the western US You will have different expectations for your rifles. The same things still apply. Practice with your gun breeds confidence.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27000
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Wayne59]
      #288336 - 26/09/16 02:48 AM

My favourite big game rifles shoot sub inch at 100 meters for 3-shto groups, including the Stutzen Ruger .243 & Rem 700 in .22-250, Weatherby Vangard .243 and new Browning .300 Mag. which I bought for long rang elk.
The old 9.3x62 Mauser will shoot into 1 1/2"- so good enough.

Field rat rifles will run 3/8" off a bipod for 3 shots quite consistently.

My favourite 14 bore ML will run under 2" off the bags(or used to when I could see)at 100 meters, so it's OK. The .50/95 will shoot into 3"x3"(actually tighter than that) for 5 shots with the hunting load & that's good enough for iron sight hunting ranges.
The Marlin .45/70 is running just under 2" with 405RP's running 2,000fps with a 2X scope. Again, good enough.

I've only ever shot a big game animal past 100yards - once & I don't expect to begin that process any time soon, but just yesterday fired 4 shots (.300 Mag.) off a bipod at the 15" steel plates at our BlackWater range - yes - from a rest. 200, 300, 385 and 500 meters all centre hits, using this calculator's figures on MOA holdover. They worked. The load was a factory 180gr. Bonded sighted 1 1/2" high at 100 meters, giving a yard zero.

http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballis...=+Create+Chart+

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: DarylS]
      #288341 - 26/09/16 04:38 AM

Thanks for the chart Daryl..I used different ones all the time..the Zeiss Rapid Z system works very well for my experiences with it..I have several of their scopes on different rifles including my wife's Kimber .308--have a Rapid Z-600 on it...she is deadly out as far as you want to shoot..

Swarovski with the turret system and ballistic calculater on their website is accurate as well provided you enter the correct info..which if you upload to your phone and need to change while in another country, it is easy to do.

Agree with the above..if I am not getting really tight groups with a rifle..it hits the road if I cant get it to shoot..Life is too short for inaccurate rifles in my opinion..

If one goes on a trip to the other side of the planet or if its 100 miles from our home..feel you own it to the animal, yourself and all concerned to be the best you can be AND to be honest with yourself and know those limitations... Having said that I the last animal I shot was a Tur in Azerbaijan..using the above setup in a 280AI --was a bit over 350 yds walking up the mtn side..hit him through the front shoulders, it was lights out...and there it is, I feel very confident in that rifle..not saying that to brag, more so, I agree with Postman..confidence is key whether its shooting, boxing, or whatever...the mind is a powerful force Luke..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Ripp]
      #288342 - 26/09/16 04:43 AM

Postman

Curious what calibers you are shooting in your Blasers?? I picked one up last year and have not shot it yet. However have a hunt booked in January and thinking of ordering a 375H&H barrel for it from Euro-optic.. It come with a 300 W Mag barrel and Zeiss scope with quick detach mounts..figure if I got a .375 barrel I could travel the world with that combo ..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Ripp]
      #288351 - 26/09/16 09:03 AM

Quote:

Postman

Curious what calibers you are shooting in your Blasers?? I picked one up last year and have not shot it yet. However have a hunt booked in January and thinking of ordering a 375H&H barrel for it from Euro-optic.. It come with a 300 W Mag barrel and Zeiss scope with quick detach mounts..figure if I got a .375 barrel I could travel the world with that combo ..

Ripp



Hi Ripp:

K95 = .270 Winchester
R93 = .300 Win Mag + .375 H&H bbl
R8 = 9.3x62

All three are accurate to a point that most wouldn't believe me unless they saw it with their own eyes.

The K95 is really wonderful and is my favorite Blaser and it is a keeper.

The R93 suffered from the occasional "click" when it's supposed to go bang like so many other R93s are reported to suffer from if one researches around in the Internet but it is slender and has the magical feel of the K95 albeit slightly heavier.

The R8 was also rediculously accurate but it wouldn't digest anything but factory ammo. It took a piece of firewood to hammer the bolt closed with reloads no matter what trickery i applied drawing from my fairly considerable bag of reloading tricks.(not trying to brag - just been at it a long time). The R8 had a heavier almost blocky feel in comparison to the R93.

I no longer own the R93 nor the R8. They were both incredibly accurate but I sent them on down the road given their issues that I just could no longer tolerate. Pity, because I really like the concept, and I absolutely loved the feel of the R93. Had it behaved differently, it would have most surely have become one of my most cherished rifles,

I do pray that your experience with yours is more positive than mine. If it proves out to be reliable for you, it would make one of the finest safari rifles out there. They break down beautifully for travel and the accuracy, oh my, the accuracy is truly astounding!!

All the best,

Postman

P.s. What country are you booked to hunt come January?

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Postman]
      #288374 - 26/09/16 11:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Postman

Curious what calibers you are shooting in your Blasers?? I picked one up last year and have not shot it yet. However have a hunt booked in January and thinking of ordering a 375H&H barrel for it from Euro-optic.. It come with a 300 W Mag barrel and Zeiss scope with quick detach mounts..figure if I got a .375 barrel I could travel the world with that combo ..

Ripp



Hi Ripp:

K95 = .270 Winchester
R93 = .300 Win Mag + .375 H&H bbl
R8 = 9.3x62

All three are accurate to a point that most wouldn't believe me unless they saw it with their own eyes.

The K95 is really wonderful and is my favorite Blaser and it is a keeper.

The R93 suffered from the occasional "click" when it's supposed to go bang like so many other R93s are reported to suffer from if one researches around in the Internet but it is slender and has the magical feel of the K95 albeit slightly heavier.

The R8 was also rediculously accurate but it wouldn't digest anything but factory ammo. It took a piece of firewood to hammer the bolt closed with reloads no matter what trickery i applied drawing from my fairly considerable bag of reloading tricks.(not trying to brag - just been at it a long time). The R8 had a heavier almost blocky feel in comparison to the R93.

I no longer own the R93 nor the R8. They were both incredibly accurate but I sent them on down the road given their issues that I just could no longer tolerate. Pity, because I really like the concept, and I absolutely loved the feel of the R93. Had it behaved differently, it would have most surely have become one of my most cherished rifles,

I do pray that your experience with yours is more positive than mine. If it proves out to be reliable for you, it would make one of the finest safari rifles out there. They break down beautifully for travel and the accuracy, oh my, the accuracy is truly astounding!!

All the best,

Postman

P.s. What country are you booked to hunt come January?




When I was in Spain last December the place I hunted with had 2 R8's both in 300W Mag with Zeiss optics...so that is what I used the entire time there...really like it..so plan to give it a whirl and if they don't work out, it will be down the road for me as well..but yes agree, think for traveling the package is pretty hard to beat...

My wife even used the same rifle and shot several animals there with it..which was a bigger caliber than she had ever shot before..and she weighs about 110lbs..so was worried about recoil...didn't bother her in the least...

I know some don't like the cocking mechanism, which I don't understand..I found it very reliable and simple to use..must be my German heritage...

I am headed to Cameron ...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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mchughcb
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Reged: 21/02/14
Posts: 382
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Postman]
      #288376 - 26/09/16 11:09 PM

My K95 Stutzen is my favorite rifle.

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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Ripp]
      #288378 - 26/09/16 11:40 PM

Hi Ripp:

I've got long history with pump action rifles, and I find the R93 / R8 platforms are almost as quick..... I absolutely love the design and lockup mechanism. It's a wonderful strong design. The R8 is quite a bit beefier and a heavier rifle all around than the R93 and the R8 bolt head is visibly larger than that of the R93. I will probably get lured back in to trying one again at some point...... Maybe Blaser will one day adapt their radial bolt head design to a pump action.... If they did, I'd be first in line to buy one and I'd be pushing little old ladies out of my way to get to the sales counter!!!!!!

Best of luck on your upcoming hunt!!!!!

Best,

Postman

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mchughcb
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Reged: 21/02/14
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: Postman]
      #288388 - 27/09/16 07:29 AM

My blaser double rifle shoots 1.5moa at 200m with both barrels. So I'm comfortable to take a shot on a deer size animal with the 9.3x74R out to 250m off a rest.

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OT3
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Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: mchughcb]
      #290619 - 21/11/16 12:10 PM

For me, practical accuracy is: how closely a rifle will shoot within a radius to point of aim. This meaning that the group POI will not shift at any practical range within normal field shooting conditions to yield groups larger then 2 inches at 300 yards. All of the four guns which I still use since retirement, will reliably shoot a one inch radius group to POA group at 300 yards. They all will also continuing this accuracy trend beyond 300 yards with my loads, assuming that I do my part with shooting form. This does not include my 9.3x74R which will meet this criteria at 200 yards. This practically limits my hunting shots to about 400 yards under field conditions on deer sized animals and elk at 300 yards with the 9.3mm.

Actually, finding, testing and proving these rifles to be keepers is tougher than it sounds. I have owned many rifles in my 73 years and only a couple of handfuls of these rifles have met this accuracy criteria over years of use.

--------------------
The unknown Engineer

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
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Loc: NW Montana
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: OT3]
      #290952 - 28/11/16 04:32 AM

I talked to a man last year who was very upset that his expensive custom hunting rifle, with a custom barrel, would not do better than a 0.6 inch group at 100 yards. He said "for as much as I paid it should do better than that".

One could probably blame this sort of attitude on the Internet and/or the gun magazines. Tales abound of half inch groups. I even read one recently where a writer was testing an open sighted lever action rifle and getting sub moa groups. The implication was that this level of accuracy was common with this rifle. Really!!!!

I've read most of what Elmer Keith's wrote and I don't recall him ever mentioning group size, not once. I think this is because, as an experienced hunter, he knew it was not that important.

Now I like accurate rifles too but, if we are talking hunting, small groups from the bench are pretty meaningless.

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lonewulf
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Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand
Re: Hunting Rifle Accuracy Quizz [Re: cordite]
      #290968 - 28/11/16 07:37 AM



I shoot a collection of old hunting rifles, none of which will consistently shoot sub MOA. Mostly they (or maybe it's me) seem to shoot about 1.5 or so from a steady (at least as steady as I can make it) prone position, with peep sights. Although I'd prefer them to do better, it's good enough for my purposes (I wouldn't attempt a shot at much over 250m in the field). I do have one scoped rifle, a '98 in .308 Win with a ss barrel but it doesn't seem to do much better than 1.5 either.

Strangely, when I used to shoot BP competitions some years ago I had a .45 M/L target rifle that could put 5 shots into 1.5 at 100m, at least from time to time, using paper patched bullets. That was a damn good rifle.

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