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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
Do you really need a magnum???
      #287628 - 10/09/16 08:19 AM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...m_campaign=0916

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Postman
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287631 - 10/09/16 08:41 AM

Uh oh Ripp!!! The last time you posted something like this, I opened my yap and helped fuel a very lively debate!!!!

But I'm smarter now and I'm not biting!!!! Of course you NEED one!!!! But you also "NEED" a non magnum!!!! Hell, you "NEED" all manner of cool firearms...... Why, you might ask????? Well, because you do!!!!!!! Just because!!!!!

Best,

Postman


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DarylS
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287634 - 10/09/16 10:01 AM

Good article. As noted, much depends on the ranges one actually shoots game.

Just yesterday my Bro was asking me what the drop figures were for his 9.3x57 using 286gr. Dual Core Norma on moose or elk - out to 300yards. His rifle is sighted 2" high at 109 meters. Centre hold to 150yds., 1/2 way to spine for 200 to 225yards and top of the back for 250 to 300 yards his self imposed limit. That was all he needed to know as he uses a range finder and is able to interpret intermediate ranges.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Rell
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287657 - 11/09/16 03:58 AM

Need, hells yes.

If you don't have a 338-378 Weatherby how can you shoot whitetail a past 300m?

Seriously though it's nice to be able to reach out to 500m on a once in a life time hunt if you have practiced and are confident in the shot.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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fuhrmann
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287659 - 11/09/16 06:14 AM

An old Jeff Cooper quote comes to mind:
What is a magnum cartridge good for? It enables you to miss faster!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: fuhrmann]
      #287668 - 11/09/16 06:53 AM

The best longer range shooting on a hunt I have done was with my .30-06 pushing 150 gr Noslers out at a quite sedate velocity, maybe 2900 fps.

I was shooting feral goats in the Flinders Ranges and the herd of feral goats were fleeing along a lefge path on a cliff. Using my daypack as a rest, BANG, one down off the ledge, BANG, two down, BANG three down, perhaps at about 400 metres (from memory), BANG, fourth down ... but he was not dead ... BANG BANG BANG BANG, could I hit him lying at the foot of the cliff??? The rest escaped before I managed to finish him off.

400 metres for me is a long long way away. Estimate only as before range finders were available to normal people. But the .30-06 was able to do it until ...

BTW if that had not been lousy feral goats being culled, but say a stag or even a big trophy feral billy, I probably would not risk such a long shot.

But I do think, a 'magnum' with a longer point blank aiming range does make it easier if a longer shot does present itself. Normal hunting 95% of the time, not actually needed.

As for really long ranges, say 500 metres or more ... Not part of my repetoire.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287669 - 11/09/16 06:59 AM

BTW Phillip Massaro writes a more sensible article on the topic than many, and uses good logic.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Postman
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287686 - 11/09/16 09:20 AM

Does one need to shoot into a land far far away? Not if one can help it. However sometimes there is no other way. I applaud the reach out and touch 'em cartridges and the rifles that are made well enough to do them justice. I also have great admiration for the rifleman that can make the most of both. But, and it's a big but: can one get closer? Top notch Bush craft and hunting skill suggests one can get up close, save for those situations where some rare and funky billy goat is waaaaay out there across a canyon that must be spanned by a miracle shot. This is where flat shooting magnums play and are highly appropriate.

For most situations, I would gravitate to a compromise that will not turn a scrawny little antelope into bloodshot mush up close, but will "reasonably" reach out there to maybe 300 yards. I won't shoot further. Or rather, I have not shot further. But I have not hunted mountain ranges where I've had no other choice either.

On the flip side, magnums can be tamed by downloading, but non magnums can't be safely hot rodded if one ascribes to the notion that one shouldn't try to make a cartridge into something that it isn't.

Edited by Postman (11/09/16 09:29 AM)


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500Boswell
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Postman]
      #287687 - 11/09/16 09:26 AM

Yes we need guns and we need magnums !

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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #287688 - 11/09/16 09:35 AM

Of course you do, you can't call yourself a gun whore without at least a few!

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Postman
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #287690 - 11/09/16 09:56 AM

Quote:

Of course you do, you can't call yourself a gun whore without at least a few!




I love it when you talk dirty to me!!!!


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gryphon
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Postman]
      #287705 - 11/09/16 02:57 PM

Magnums,dont they makes you taller too?

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Ripp
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287715 - 12/09/16 02:12 AM

Quote:

Magnums,dont they makes you taller too?



only if you are 5'6 or smaller..

Reading the posts is great to hear everyone's take. I agree with most of what is said..NO, I don't think you NEED one..but one doesn't really need a Porsche or Harley in the garage, but they sure can be fun..

IMHO, a flat shooting rifle like a .257 Weatherby for an example on antelope..one can sight that in to be 3" high at 100yds and still hold hair on hair out to 400..if you shoot enough and the situation finds it necessary it is really not that difficult to pull of a 500 yd shot..no dial turning or using multi cross hairs..

As to blowing up a bunch of meat, my experience is that this is more a product of the bullet you are using vs the caliber..I have shot little tiny antelope in Africa with my .416 using 400 gr bullets..little hole in and out..but was a very tough bullet..I use a Barnes XXX in the .257 Weatherby..pushing them close to 3700fps...no meat spoilage at all.

Agree in 95% of the hunting cases you don't need one..but also as described it you are on a hunt in the middle of nowhere and suddenly on the last day a game animal is trotting up the opposite side of a canyon at 360 yards, its nice to have a flatter shooting caliber that you have used and ARE intimately familiar with ..NO harvesting something isn't the end all, but it doesn't suck to be successful either..contrary to what Obama has been telling everyone for the past 7 1/2 years..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287716 - 12/09/16 03:05 AM

Quote:

Magnums,don't they makes you taller too?




Absolutely - I used to be 5'8" & 165pounds - the minimum to join the RCMPolice Force back before they slacked off the standards so Women could join(ANOTHER BONE OF CONTENTION!). Since joining the force, buying and shooting many different magnums over the last 44 years, starting off with my first .44 magnum, I'm now 6'1" and 235 pounds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gryphon
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287725 - 12/09/16 10:16 AM

Thats Magnum brand BEER that did it D

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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Postman
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287728 - 12/09/16 10:40 AM

As much as I like my doubles in classic double cartridges, I also like the challenge of long distance target shooting. I won't do it on animals, but for me, paper and in particular reactive targets like steel gongs are a lot of fun when the distances are long..... For example, the TRG in .308 is a lovely long distance toy for the range and even more so in .338 Lapua when one really wants to go far.

For hunting, I do have a .257 Weatherby that I load with 115 grain TSX bullets. They're hard and don't self destruct at close ranges in a cartridge that reaches out easily to 400 yards with very flat hold on hair trajectory. I once was presented with a 30 yard broadside caribou shot with the .257 in hand. I was expecting to see them cross the distant ice between the eskers at a good 350 yards, but lo and behold, Mr Bou showed up right on top of me. The shot literally spray painted the evergreen bush behind it a lovely red colour and I had my Bou. The damage and tissue destruction was unbelievable but I did have the hind quarters and most of the back straps to salvage. It was a pity that I held on the shoulder instead of just behind them...... The bullet was a pass through and was not recovered.

I really like that .257. It does catch me by surprise every time I shoot it with the muzzle blast of the high intensity overbore cartridge. A .25-06 is a lovely cartridge and would undoubtedly be almost as effective but would not shoot as far nor as flat.

All this to say that I don't mind magnums but I'm not totally fixated on them as the be all and end all. Maybe if I was fixated on them, I'd have been kinder to my dearly departed .378 Weatherby and would be shooting it as a primary rifle. They have their place. So does a boat anchor heavy slow .45-70...... One doesn't use a sledge to drive tacks, nor does one use a tack hammer to drive railroad spikes...... There's a place for everything but some tools are more optimal for a given situation.

Edited by Postman (12/09/16 10:55 AM)


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Rockdoc
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Postman]
      #287730 - 12/09/16 12:22 PM

Well owning double rifle in 500/450 3 1/4" magnum and 375 Flanged Magnum and magazine rifles in 375H&H belted magnum I would say yes.

The original magnum cartridges were large and bottle shaped but not necessarily the high pressure hotshots some modern magnums are. Except the old 375H&H I guess


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DarylS
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287733 - 12/09/16 01:29 PM

Quote:

Thats Magnum brand BEER that did it D




That's what my wife said!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gryphon
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287736 - 12/09/16 02:47 PM

I`ll be betting that wifey is right too D

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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Postman
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #287739 - 12/09/16 08:34 PM

Quote:

Well owning double rifle in 500/450 3 1/4" magnum and 375 Flanged Magnum and magazine rifles in 375H&H belted magnum I would say yes.

The original magnum cartridges were large and bottle shaped but not necessarily the high pressure hotshots some modern magnums are. Except the old 375H&H I guess





Reading this is a bit of a reminder to me that the magnum label can mean a lot of different things to different people...... I love both the 375 H&H as well as the flanged version. Funny though, when I think about them, I don't think "magnum", I think medium bore. When I think magnum, I think .375 and .378 Weatherby, etc........ It is very easy to lose sight of the notion that there was a shorter less powerful .375 2 & 1/2" before the H&H et al.......

Edited by Postman (12/09/16 09:38 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Postman]
      #287742 - 12/09/16 11:22 PM

Quote:

As much as I like my doubles in classic double cartridges, I also like the challenge of long distance target shooting. I won't do it on animals, but for me, paper and in particular reactive targets like steel gongs are a lot of fun when the distances are long..... For example, the TRG in .308 is a lovely long distance toy for the range and even more so in .338 Lapua when one really wants to go far.

For hunting, I do have a .257 Weatherby that I load with 115 grain TSX bullets. They're hard and don't self destruct at close ranges in a cartridge that reaches out easily to 400 yards with very flat hold on hair trajectory. I once was presented with a 30 yard broadside caribou shot with the .257 in hand. I was expecting to see them cross the distant ice between the eskers at a good 350 yards, but lo and behold, Mr Bou showed up right on top of me. The shot literally spray painted the evergreen bush behind it a lovely red colour and I had my Bou. The damage and tissue destruction was unbelievable but I did have the hind quarters and most of the back straps to salvage. It was a pity that I held on the shoulder instead of just behind them...... The bullet was a pass through and was not recovered.

I really like that .257. It does catch me by surprise every time I shoot it with the muzzle blast of the high intensity overbore cartridge. A .25-06 is a lovely cartridge and would undoubtedly be almost as effective but would not shoot as far nor as flat.

All this to say that I don't mind magnums but I'm not totally fixated on them as the be all and end all. Maybe if I was fixated on them, I'd have been kinder to my dearly departed .378 Weatherby and would be shooting it as a primary rifle. They have their place. So does a boat anchor heavy slow .45-70...... One doesn't use a sledge to drive tacks, nor does one use a tack hammer to drive railroad spikes...... There's a place for everything but some tools are more optimal for a given situation.




Agree with the .257 Weatherby comments--

I had one built on a Rem. titanium action..has it reworked and installed a Hart Barrel..shoots incredible well..and is just a tad over 7lbs with scope..first time at the range a buddy was along, as I was getting ready to shoot he bend over to pick something up off the ground on the next bench over..the blast blew his hat off his head..we still laugh about that ...

As to the Triple Shocks..several years ago I shot a mule deer buck..unbeknownst to me there was a doe behind him --hit her as the bullet passed through him..found the bullet in her head when it was all over..perfect pedals and about 95% of its original weight...think for a caliber that fast the Barnes Triple shocks are a perfect bullet..also think for deer and antelope there a few calibers that are as flat shooting and perform as well as the .257...its as you stated, a 25-06 on steroids..Even my 26 Nosler isn't as fast as this but do plan to the 26 this season a bit, curious on how it will perform on deer and elk if I get the chance..

Ripp

R

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287754 - 13/09/16 02:02 AM

Was out at the range yesterday again checking sights on my new Browning .300 Win Mag as well as my .375/06IMP.
Both rifles had similar recoil - maybe the .375 a bit more push, but when it landed 2,800fpsd 225gr. SP's, 2,650fps 270gr. TSX and 2,470fps 300gr,. Norma RN's onto essentially a 2 1/2" vertical group, my mind was made up on what I'm packing for moose and elk in October. Damn - I like that round and it's not a magnum.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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SharpsNitro
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287783 - 13/09/16 11:50 AM

Magnums? Absolutely! For reaching out and hitting a target at distance faster is better. I would even make the case that th .243 is a magnum.

For me it's shooting LR and ELR at steel targets. More velocity means less drop (obviously) but less wind correction (most importantly). At the last class I took it was very educational when my instructor put me on the spotting scope to call shots for him. He was shooting older .308 military match loads (168gr SMK) and compared to my 6.5SAUM it was night and day. Wind calls were about 2X more for him but the killer was range, it was amazing watching the bullets lose stability around 900yds. It's one thing to read about the stability issues of that bullet at 1000yds but it's another thing to see it in action.

Anyway, I'm a committed ranger and dailer and only use holds to correct. Corrections are almost exclusively for wind as I've verified my ballistics out to Range so I guess I'm on the scientific end of things.


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Postman
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #287793 - 13/09/16 02:10 PM

I've used a .308 and a 7mm-08 on the 800 metre range. They are both amazing at that distance, both for what they can and can't do. Both rifles equipped with 26" barrels were still supersonic at that range. With the rigs sighted in at 100 yards, as I recall it was 97 clicks up on the elevation turret in order to be at the correct elevation for 800 metres. That's near 25 MOA ABOVE a 100 metre sight in aiming point. At 800 metres, that is effectively shooting a rainbow, which arcs above the line of sight by a good 25 feet at the mid point!!!!!!!!!! Think about that: the bullet is actually travelling 25 FEET ABOVE the line of sight!!!!!!

Windage was another story all together. With the ever watchful eye on the wind flags gracing the shooting range at points every 100 metres, if one were to pick shots carefully when the air was relatively still, one could stay on target eerily effectively. A tiny gust of wind equaled a clean miss on the entire life size military "enemy soldier" targets in use on that range unless one doped the wind skillfully and with a good dose of luck.

The .338 Lapua using very high BC 300 grain bullets driven at very high velocity are much more effective at bucking the wind, and do not exhibit such a rainbow like trajectory, but don't kid yourself, it's still a healthy rainbow.

I don't shoot at animals that far. It extends far outside my personal code of ethics and it indeed make me feel somewhat nauseous to watch the super long range bullshit "hunting" shows on the weekend tv, designed by all appearances at least to to me to be about selling tacti-cool rifles, and twiddle knob ultra magnification scopes, and less about good ethical hunting.

Anyhow, I believe in magnums for their properties of flattening trajectory such that when hunting, I can hold on hair even at extended ranges, for me being 400 yards or less, and preferably much less. if my rifle won't shoot flat enough to hold on hair, then I feel I am not close enough to the intended target for the particular hunting rifle/cartridge I'm carrying. There are obviously other factors at play such as bullet weight, caliber, construction, impact velocity that also need to be factored when determining suitability for the intended prey, but one still needs to hit 'em well and in a vital area in order to kill humanely, and reducing trajectory as a key consideration is important for me. I love to hunt, but I do respect the game animals, and I want to feel comfortable that when I decide to shoot at something, that I can score a fatal hit with that first shot.

My boundaries and my particular code of hunting ethics are designed by me and for me and I am comfortable with them. However, I would never expect anybody else to have to adhere to them. To each their own, and we each need to answer to ourselves at the end of the day, but I do have my own opinion about what is probably too far to ethically shoot at animals. I share it here not to lecture, but to provoke thought.

Edited by Postman (13/09/16 02:25 PM)


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xausa
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Re: Do you really need a magnum??? [Re: Postman]
      #287811 - 13/09/16 09:32 PM

I have quite a few Magnums in my gun room, but I have never hunted with one, except in Africa. Even there, a good percentage of my plains game was taken with my .30-'06 and 7X57.

I have never hunted elk or moose, but if I had, I would consider using one of my smaller caliber magnums, like the one I used on the larger antelopes, and the same goes for the larger bear species, which I have also never hunted.

As far as long range shooting is concerned, I competed for years with rifles such as the .30-'06, .308, 7mm-08, .260 Remington, and yes, .223 at ranges up to and including 600 and even 1000 yards, but I would not consider taking a shot beyond 300 yards on game. Shooting at a stationary target at a known distance is one thing. Shooting at a live animal, capable of moving at any instant, including the interval between the bullet leaving the barrel and arriving on target, increases the chances of a shot which merely wounds in direct proportion to the range.

Although not labeled "Magnum", I consider some of my cartridges to be "Magnum" in performance, such as my 7X75R SE vom Hofe, my 7X65R and 7X64, my 9.3X74, 9.3X62 and my 8X68S. I have used the former on deer at longer ranges and plan on using the latter on wild hogs, if I get the opportunity.


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