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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Online wanderings re SS
      #287446 - 06/09/16 06:43 AM

I chanced on this old thread and the Mc name popped up,interesting as to his thoughts on fluting.

From: Gale McMillan <gale@mcmfamily.com>
Newsgroups: rec.guns
Subject: Re: Stainless vs. Blued
Date: 13 May 1998 10:17:34 -0400

Bbemory wrote:
#
# #What advantages/disadvantages does stainless have over "regular" blued
# #steel for a rifle barrel? Am considering purchase of (another) varmint gun,
# #and am thinking of one of those newfangled stainless fluted barrels...
# #
# #
# #
# #Bill McCormick
# #Member, Los Fresnos Rodeo Committee
# #
# #
# #
# #www.hiline.net/~corbson/rodeopage.htm
# #Ring Master, Texas Rodeo Web Ring
# #Join the Texas Rodeo Web Ring:
# # www.hiline.net/~corbson/texasrodeo.htm
# #Texas Rodeo Schedules: http://www.hiline.net/~corbson/rodeosked.htm
# #
# #
#
# I would be interested in hearing from the match shooters who nave experimented
# with both. They have very different thermal characteristics and St St has
# generally poorer machining quality so is one more accurate than the other? I
# have never used stainless on a rifle.
# Blair
# JOIN THE NRA, IT'S OUR ONLY HOPE

Contrary to genral impressions Stainless steel that is used in the
firearms is not more difficult but is much more machineable than
chromoly. The s/s used in barrel steel is stainless screw stock 416R made
to run on auto screw machines at high speed. The steel used in s/s
actions is 1704, a tougher steel that take more tool pressure but
machines nicely. Stainless doesn't have the tensile strength that a
chromoly like 4340 does. Due to the softness of barrel s/s which is 27
to 29 Rockwell C it will not last as long as 4140 and while it is
believed to withstand heat erosion better I have not found that to be
true. As a summery due the better machine ability, s/s barrels can be
made with closer dimensions and surface finishes. It will produce more
accurate barrels. The sole benefit of fluted barrels is that to some
people it looks neat. If you are lucky a fluted barrel will shoot as
well as or nearly as well as an unfluted barrel. And the gunsmith needs
the money.
Gale McMillan

--------------------
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Postman
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: gryphon]
      #287455 - 06/09/16 07:54 AM

That is a very interesting and informative opinion. I do not have the metallurgy knowledge to make a statement one way or the other but have observed great barrels made from both stainless and carbon. My most accurate rifles have been equipped both ways. A Sako TRG22 currently in my vault produces 5 shot 100 metre 1 hole slightly ragged groups as set up from the factory with its carbon barrel. I have had a .308 Sako stainless varmint rifle off the shelf that produced similarly tight groups albeit maybe a slightly more ragged hole. Not to ignore the venerable Mr Potato Head AR15, mine equipped with a stainless heavy Lllja barrel with a precisely reamed match chamber (courtesy of the wonderful folk at Alberta Tactical Rifle) is also a mind blowing performer with a large ragged 1 hole 10 shot group at 100 metres.

I like stainless barrels simply because they are much less prone to rust. If I could have a double rifle made of stainless and if I could get Heym to perform such sacrilege for a price point similar to a carbon double, I would love one in stainless in .303 British!!!

Edited by Postman (06/09/16 07:56 AM)


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: Postman]
      #287470 - 06/09/16 09:58 AM

Hard to argue with Mr Mac`s stuff above too postman.

ED Harris is another god of guns,there is some very good stuff in this link below.

(Editor’s Note: Ed’s back with an incredible article on firearm metallurgy! This originated as a reply to an email from a “DG”. Ed gives some phenomenal information on the metals used at his employer, Sturm Ruger, to build their guns. I think you’ll find it very interesting, if a little complex!)

DG: A toolmaker friend wants to know what types of metal are used in a revolver. Having read your posts, I figured you would probably have the answers. Please feel free to be as technical as necessary…(Editor’s Note: remember, folks, he asked for it!)

EH: At Ruger chrome-moly revolver frames are typically 4140LS blended at the mill to specific (and proprietary) chemistry to give the desired structures in the cast parts. Mostly this involves holding the sulphur within very stringent limits which are lower than those used by other manufacturers, and having additional restrictive requirements to eliminate silicates or phosphorous to the extent that they are below the detection limit by x-ray diffraction. There are some other elements which are manipulated to get specific properties related to the casting process which I am not at liberty to discuss, but suffice to say the investment casting process varies depending upon whether you are working with CM (chrome moly) or SS (stainless steel.)

The stainless is vacuum melted and poured under controlled atmosphere, such as in argon or nitrogen, whereas the CM can be poured in ambient air, though oxidation protection is provided by pouring a powdered antioxidant over the open mould sinks after the sprue is full.

All of the steel used at Ruger is ordered in 100-ton heat lots and produced by a continuous casting process which ensures uniformity in the billets produced. The billets are then cropped, and rolled per Ruger’s specs.

Cast parts generally incorporate about 50% virgin material, and 50% remelt scrap which results from Ruger’s own operations. Scrap is kept separate by machining line and is tagged by heat lot and type of material so heat lot integrity can be maintained as long as they are running that batch. A sample of every lot of material cast in the foundry is sent to the lab for analysis, generally 4 times per shift.

The cast parts are visually inspected, annealed, straightened, then gaged, sorted and either x-ray or ultrasonically tested. Rough machining is done in the annealed state. Finish machining is done after final heat treatment.

Barrels and cylinders are not machined from castings, but are produced from bar stock or forgings, depending upon the gun model. Barrels and cylinders are generally heat treated to Rc35 Min at Ruger, whereas other makes are typically 20-24. Ruger frames are generally Rc 28-35, whereas a lot of S&W frames used in the Model 10 and similar guns won’t even register on the C scale, but may be around 80-90 on the B scale.

The stainless material used for revolver frames and cylinders is a 410 series, whereas barrel stock is a modified 415. Lockwork is a 300 series stainless in both blued and stainless versions. Critical parts like barrels and cylinders are 100% Magnafluxed using the wet method with circular continuous magnetization.

After final assembly proofing is done with standard military HPT or SAAMI specification proof cartridges, one per chamber. I might note that some other makers do not proof all six chambers of a revolver, but try to cut corners on the proofing. If all six chambers are not proofed the cylinder is not equally stressed and you may not detect flaws such as secondary piping, or nonmetallic inclusions or laminations which might occur in the melt shop at the steel mill because the fellow cropping the billets was having a “bad hair day”.

We set up our steel specs and receiving inspection on barrel and cylinder steel to pretty much eliminate that type of problem by specifying ingot position, and requiring on-line ultrasonic and x-ray testing of the bars, which were also bumper straightened and checked with eddy current for flaws before the mill length bars were loaded onto the trailer.

When we received a shipment we’d take samples, cutting the ends off of a specified number of bars, based on a statistical sampling plan, and run them into the lab to verify the structures and chemistries against the mill cert. We’d send the driver off to a local hotel for a steak and a shower on us while it was going on so he wouldn’t be as unhappy if we rejected the batch and told him to take it back (which we did a few times when I was there).

When I was there only two mills, Timken and SKF, were able to consistently produce 4140LS to our specs for cylinder blanks and Mini 14 receivers and bolts. This material is almost identical to Navy-nuclear pressure vessel grade material, and exceeds normal gun-barrel quality. Similarly, the stainless was vacuum melted, argon-oxygen decarburized and ladle refined similar to a Navy-nuclear or aerospace bearing grade of material.

Most of the other makers buy standard AISI grades in gun barrel quality, typically 1137 for shotgun, blackpowder and .22 rimfire barrels and 4140 for centerfire barrels. Most stainless target rifle barrels are made of 415 or 416 series stainless, but both the re-sulphurized CM and the free machining SS (which produce “mirror finish quality”) have sulphur or selenium additives to improve machinability. If the distribution of these elements is nonuniform, the clumped inclusions can form stress risers which impair ultimate strength. For this reason they cannot be used in applications such as M14 or M1A barrels which have complex exterior machining which might produce stress risers. Nor can they be used in hammer forging of barrels which will undergo significant reduction and elongation. Generally, steels used for cylinder blanks or for hammer forge barrel applications cannot exceed 0.006% max. S or Se.

We spent a lot of time and money at Ruger developing tooling, coolants and processes which would permit machining to good interior finishes with materials giving the maximum ultimate strength and ductility. We had our own vacuum heat treating facilities in-house for stainless, and gas furnaces for CM.

Some types of stainless, such as used for Mini-14 firing pins and barrels and Redhawk revolver cylinders, would get a nonconventional cryogenic stress relief rather than the usual low temperature (1045-1050 deg F) “bake” to normalize. This, combined with the particular chemistry we used, resulted in firing pins which were file hard but which you could bend into a pretzel shape without any cracks, and barrels you could elevate to cook off temperature with 180 rounds of full auto fire then set up a bullet-in-bore obstruction and fire a proof load in the hot barrel without it bursting. Try THAT with an M16!

We converted entirely to synthetic coolants, such as Trimsol 6-8% concentrate in distilled water while I was there and got all the chlorinated paraffins out of the shop entirely. We ran hourly refractometer readings on the coolant used in the CNC machining centers and had thermocouples at the machining stations to monitor the incoming coolant temperature and the exit coolant entering the scavenger pumps, and fed the used coolant through filtration, centrifuges and heat exchanging equipment before putting it back into the pipeline. We also set up our own water treatment and recycling plant to purify city water to remove the chlorine, because we could not use it to mix machine coolant. This also permitted us to recycle machine coolant water and dispose as hazardous wastes.





http://www.grantcunningham.com/2012/03/ed-harris-on-metallurgy-for-firearms/

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: Postman]
      #287475 - 06/09/16 10:21 AM

Quote:

If I could have a double rifle made of stainless and if I could get Heym to perform such sacrilege for a price point similar to a carbon double, I would love one in stainless in .303 British!!!




Here you go and also links on the thread.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=75587&an=&page=&vc=1

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: NitroX]
      #287476 - 06/09/16 10:25 AM

https://www.facebook.com/badenhorstbespokerifle/photos/?tab=album&album_id=351054248413911

Another part stainless steel.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: NitroX]
      #287477 - 06/09/16 10:35 AM

Good stuff, guys. I am amazed at the tech at Ruger.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: DarylS]
      #287500 - 07/09/16 12:02 AM

Hi NitroX:

Well, I never thought I'd see the day, but there we have it, a stainless double!!!! So it can and has been done!!

It's particularly interesting that we don't see more boxlock shotguns and the like, made of stainless. With all the silver nitrided receiver finishes found on probably 90 percent of over/under shotguns coupled with the fact that stainless is easier to machine (according to the technical post earlier in the thread) I would have expected to see much more use of stainless.

A good rust blue is surely a thing of beauty, but in damp climates it just is not the greatest, although I do now regularly coat the outside of my rifles with floor wax to prevent rust and preserve the finish after having been educated properly here at Nitro Express.

So other than tradition and beauty, what would be the reason double rifle makers avoid stainless? Most of the African Safari trade takes place in hotter dry climates, but surely there is also good safari business that occurs in jungles, rain forests, and the like where the weather is hostile to delicate finishes. Here in Ontario, and in many many other parts of the world, the fall big game hunting season is mostly wet and cold, until the temps get a chance to drop later in the season where everything freezes up. Although I've never hunted west coast Canada or Alaska, I've spent enough time in coastal BC to see and experience what real rain really looks like!! I have stainless bolt guns that I expect would move to the most prominent place in my hunting repertoire should I decide to permanently move there in the future.

I'd think that a good double rifle in a large medium bore caliber would be absolutely ideal for coastal hunting in the thicker vegetation. Maybe one either makes enough money that they can afford to kill a good blued double every few seasons in inclement weather, or maybe one designates a lower cost double as a working gun and turns a blind eye to the ruination one invites by actually using it in inclement weather, or, and it's a big one, maybe an enterprising manufacturer might consider offering one in stainless as a special order item but at a similar price point to their regular offerings? Stainless and laminate? The Sako laminates are not hard on the eye, and are durable even when used as a canoe paddle, walking stick, fall breakers, and the like. I couldn't even remotely imagine thoughtlessly bumping around the stock of one of my beautiful wood upgraded rifles, let alone use it blindly and without care as a working tool in the school of hard knocks.

It's funny. The more I ramble on about the concept of a stainless double, it just leaves me with the feeling that I should leave well enough alone, resign myself to hunting primarily with my Sako Kodiak .375 stainless laminate, and leave the doubles mostly at home, to be perversely fondled in the quiet of the middle of the night. If I lean the Sako on the side of a tree, and it slips and falls on the ground, I'll curse myself, but I'll pick it up, brush off the leaves, snow, and mud, and continue on with my day. If I did that with one of my doubles, it would upset me and absolutely ruin my day and make me cry every time I saw the residual damage.... The reality is slightly different though. I bought my doubles to be used. Even my most expensive one that really stretched every financial fibre of my existence, a bespoke side lock Heym was bought to be hunted with, and will only stay in the truck if it's a nasty rainy day. Maybe if it was stainless though, I'd use it exclusively irrespective of the weather.

And as a final thought, maybe if it was stainless, just maybe I wouldn't have been willing to part with so much of my hard earned money to own it as I did.... And just maybe that's why double rifle manufacturers won't stray from the time honoured materials commonly accepted by the buying public. Nobody really dares to be different, 'cause being different will either make you very rich or very poor, but mostly it will make you poor.

Edited by Postman (07/09/16 09:48 AM)


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gryphon
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: Postman]
      #287507 - 07/09/16 05:52 AM

Quote:





If I lean the Sako on the side of a tree, and it slips and falls on the ground, I'll curse myself, but I'll pick it up, brush off the leaves, snow, and mud, and continue on with my day.




As I leaned my mums .22 single shot Lithgow rifle against a tree as an 8-10 year old one day my old man said to me "if you lay it down it cannot fall any further"

Sage words that have stayed with me for life,only on the rarest of occasions do I err from that teaching.

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Postman
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: gryphon]
      #287518 - 07/09/16 10:50 AM

Sage advice for sure!!!!! It's funny how some people see things so utterly clear and are able to distill things down to their purest simple form..... Of course!!!!!! Lie the damn thing down in the first place and you don't need to worry about it tipping over!!!!!!!!

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gryphon
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Re: Online wanderings re SS [Re: Postman]
      #287520 - 07/09/16 11:10 AM

Its knocking the sights/scope etc that is the problem,especially if you are away from home..I dont care about scratches and dings much.

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