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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles

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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
The greatest rifle ever made???
      #287266 - 01/09/16 10:57 PM

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/...m_campaign=0916



At first glance, declaring a rifle “the greatest ever” was to be a daunting task. The rifle, as we know it, has been around for hundreds of years and many examples have come as close to perfection as imagination and technology allowed. Rifles have been made to shoot tiny groups at ungodly ranges and have been crafted with almost unimaginable beauty. After much reflection, though, the choice was relatively simple. The same contender kept showing up on every list. No, it's not a rifle that's known for especially great accuracy, or because it features hundreds of hours of masterful engraving. Its genius is in its fundamental design—function personified. The winner, in my book, must be the 1898 Mauser.



Oh, you disagree? Fine—but name for me a bolt-action design introduced since the Mauser that isn’t an evolution or an all-out plagiarization of the German masterpiece. Your list probably won’t require all of your fingers. The 1903 Springfield? A Mauser copy that required the payment of royalties. The Winchester Model 70? Clearly an evolution of the Mauser ‘98. Maybe a Kimber? They used the extractor. Ruger M77 Mk II? Yep. CZ 550? Aye. Are you sensing a trend here? Military- and police-issue Mausers were adopted by so many nations around the world that it’s nearly impossible to keep track. There are Czech Mausers, Turkish Mausers, Argentines, Chileans, Bolivians, Columbians, Mexicans, Siamese, Persians—you get the idea. In terms of being prolific as a battle rifle, one could say that the Mauser was the AKM of the first half of the 20th Century. There are so many factory variations of the basic 1898 design that entire books have failed to catalog them all. Mauser sporting rifles, whether factory, custom, or home-built, can be found anywhere that hunters roam.

The ’98 wasn’t the Mauser brothers’ first stab at a turn-bolt action, but it was certainly their most successful. The Mauser was designed as a military rifle and was state-of-the-art technology at its inception. War is, and was then, a dirty exercise prone to breaking out in inhospitable corners of the globe. Every element of the rifle was engineered to be reliable and durable in any conceivable environment. Enthusiasts often point to the 98’s massive, non-rotating claw extractor as the key to its reliability. While remarkable, it is but a single piece in the puzzle. Surplus military Mausers made a century ago feed, fire, extract and eject with reliability that many of today’s rifles could only dream about. The massive cocking piece doesn’t have the lock time of a target rifle, but it ensures that the primer goes bang every time. The gaping receiver may compromise rigidity, but its fast to load and has plenty of ejection clearance—factors that could become lifesavers during a dangerous game encounter.

Everything from the Mauser’s cock-on-opening operation to the fixed ejector was built to minimize and mitigate failure. If a catastrophic ammunition-related failure did occur, the 98’s gas-handling features and third bolt lug protected the shooter’s eyes and face from nasty wounds. Gas handling is a big deal that you’ll likely never concern yourself with until a case fails, at which point, it may be too late to consider. Paul Mauser himself lost an eye from a rifle firing out of battery, so his obsession with safety is understandable. Mauser’s August, 1895 patent application goes into specific detail regarding how his action design protects the shooter from gases that “forms not only a danger to the person using the arm but also causes more or less damage to the weapon”. Hunters afield are at no less risk of a case failure than soldiers were in the trenches of Verdun, and the Mauser protects each equally.

When Mauser began making sporting rifles, it did not delete the features that made its rifles so reliable on the battlefield. Rather, it embraced them. Likewise, when Mauser actions were exported to England to be made into Rigbys, Jeffreys and Westleys, their legendary reliability was maintained. Even today, the finest sporting rifles on the planet often begin as Mauser ‘98s, or modern clones. My .300 H&H was built on a 1909 Argentine Mauser and my 7x57mm was made from a Steyr G.29/40; there’s another 1909 on my bench at the moment that will resume life as a .35 Whelen. Firms such as Prechtl and FZH are building proper Mauser actions with tight tolerances and modern steels that combine the best of modern technology and a timeless Victorian-era design. Even with modern CNC machining methods available, the Mauser action is expensive and complicated to produce; that it was mass-produced so well with belt driven manual machines is staggering.

So we have an action designed on a military budget with almost no object to cost or commercial viability. This action was designed to be as reliable and as safe as possible and is capable of sub-MOA accuracy at the hands of a good maker with a fine barrel. It is so stylistically beautiful that even the famed “Golden Age” English gunmakers did not attempt to improve upon it. It can be scaled to the tiniest of centerfires and stretched to accommodate the largest elephant stoppers. It has been copied and adapted but still, over 100 years after its design, can barely be improved-upon for a sporting repeater. It is, without debate, the greatest rifle ever made.

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287278 - 02/09/16 03:34 AM

So this post takes the record for the worlds shortest debate: exactly 1 post long

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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287291 - 02/09/16 10:08 AM

Is there any need for debating the end results above,IMO no!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287366 - 04/09/16 04:26 AM

I started with a Mauser 98 Parker Hale 1200 Delux in .30-06 as my first medium or larger calibre rifle.

Later ended up thinking about replacing it with a Winchester Featherweight Model 70 in .30-06. Not only did the Winchester Featherweight not shoot at all, 8 to 12 inch "groups", rebedded, new scope, new mounts nothing worked and they had that reputation. But one day I had a projectile get pulled out in the rifling and the powder get into the action. It took forever to get the last grain out so the action would function again ... After that no longer seated the projectiles for ultimate accuracy touching the lands and also decided only the Mauser M98 action was for me. Also had the action seize up on an unfired cartridge, unable to open the bolt or apply the safety. Put into the boot of the car, with a large block of railway sleeper wood in front of the muzzle in case of discharge and dropped off to a gunsmith to have it unseized and the action opened again. Sold the horrible thing off ...

Now I do have a (two) Mauser M03 as one of my new principle rifles ... and some Mannlicher/Steyrs etc, and Lee Enfields etc etc, but the Mauser 98 itself remains the ultimate for me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287367 - 04/09/16 05:03 AM

M03? Whom did you source that from JH?
Price paid?

PM if not wanting to disclose here.

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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287369 - 04/09/16 06:17 AM

PM sent. One was from an acquaintance who owned a gunshop/dealers licence which no longer exists, and the other was recently from a NE member.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: NitroX]
      #287371 - 04/09/16 06:40 AM

Responded

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Wanabebwana
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287523 - 07/09/16 01:36 PM

There is no question that the greatest bolt action ever designed is the Mauser 98.
To dispute this fact would be to say that H&H, Rigby, Jeffrey,Purdy, Westley Richards, Dorleac, Mauser, Prechlt, and all the other makers of the finest most expensive bolt action rifles in the world
are wrong and that you are right. Only an American would want their dream hunting rifle built on another action.( Pre 64 Winchester, 1903 Springfield, P17 Enfield all based on Mauser patents but built to save manufacturing cost as is so evident in Mod 70 bottom metal).
The Mannlicher Shoenauer is also incredibly well made and to me is the second best and well worth owning but Mauser has been by far the best for 118yrs and is still the best today. Granite Mountain, Saterlee,Mayfair,Prechlt/Golmatic, and FZH manufacture and sell actions for $4k-7k.

This really is a one post argument.


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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Wanabebwana]
      #287527 - 07/09/16 03:51 PM

ha ha Ripp solved that with his O/post

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Homer
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287528 - 07/09/16 04:39 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Bit of a No-Brainer I say!

It would have to be a Mauser 98 but I might have to say, it would have to be of current manufacture.
Whilst I haven't laid eye's on a New Mauser 98, I could imagine the metallurgy and tolerance of a current M98, would take some beating?

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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DarylS
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Homer]
      #287541 - 08/09/16 01:01 AM

Since it seems the Model 1871 Mauser lead to the Model 88 and then the 98 - would not the model 1871 be the greatest action ever built. But, since the model 1898 is still behind made 120years 'later', basically copied with slight modifications to bridge copy-right laws by many different manufactureres, albeit with few changes, maybe it's the best by default after all.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ahmed577
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Reged: 13/06/13
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: DarylS]
      #287552 - 08/09/16 07:37 AM

The design first metal second. Have many guns but love to sit and feel my little Kurtz action holland&holland 250-3000 pot rifle. No party without her by my side.

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287554 - 08/09/16 09:44 AM

Quote:

ha ha Ripp solved that with his O/post




I have always felt the Remington action is far superior to the 98 Mauser--don't need all that controlled round feeding and heavy extractor--needless items that only give credence to the less informed ...if you want something truly stout in nature buy a Savage with the svelt bolt and locking nut they put on all their guns....

KIDDING OF COURSE..

As only an AMERICAN would challenge this post.. -- Even though I WAS the one posting it... Dang Americans...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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BillG500
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287557 - 08/09/16 10:26 AM

Lithgow .22LR single shot......Well at least I thought it was when I was 12 and it was my first rifle.

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: BillG500]
      #287565 - 08/09/16 05:26 PM

Dang? Doesn't that mean fuck off in Aussie Art lol

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Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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CDorroh
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287567 - 08/09/16 09:19 PM

No argument here. The M98 has to be the most copied rifle action in history. As was also pointed out, most of the premium gun makers use a version of the M98 action for their bolt guns. There's a reason for that.

Edited by CDorroh (08/09/16 09:22 PM)


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287569 - 09/09/16 12:54 AM

Quote:

Dang? Doesn't that mean fuck off in Aussie Art lol




Perhaps, but done in such a way you'll thank me for it...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (09/09/16 01:00 AM)


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287573 - 09/09/16 01:26 AM

Dang, dang, dang I say!!!!!! Let's have peace across the border with our close relatives!!! American ingenuity, foresight and a penchant for marketability has recognized the M98 action for the great invention that it is and has somewhat bastardized it to make it cost effective and thus more widely available. The great American industrial machine operates on modularity, and thus is able to scale effectively to cater to the masses.

Controlled round feed? Yup, expensive to produce and pretty dang cool, but a Remmy 700 will feed very effectively even when "up freakin side down"!!!! So who gives a shit about overly complicated gear? Controlled round feed only matters for those who want something to sell to the market that is arguably not necessary or required but want to be different and "need" a distinguishing feature.... This is simply a marketing play and no more. I have both and respect that they both must be handled slightly different lest one "dangs" it up and jams the rifle. Yup, it takes a village to raise an idiot, and even an idiot can bugger up a controlled round feed.

Funny. I actually thought this thread would be exactly one post long based on the non debatability of the OP. Boy, did I ever call that one wrong!!!!!


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287577 - 09/09/16 02:53 AM

Quote:

Dang, dang, dang I say!!!!!! Let's have peace across the border with our close relatives!!! American ingenuity, foresight and a penchant for marketability has recognized the M98 action for the great invention that it is and has somewhat bastardized it to make it cost effective and thus more widely available. The great American industrial machine operates on modularity, and thus is able to scale effectively to cater to the masses.

Controlled round feed? Yup, expensive to produce and pretty dang cool, but a Remmy 700 will feed very effectively even when "up freakin side down"!!!! So who gives a shit about overly complicated gear? Controlled round feed only matters for those who want something to sell to the market that is arguably not necessary or required but want to be different and "need" a distinguishing feature.... This is simply a marketing play and no more. I have both and respect that they both must be handled slightly different lest one "dangs" it up and jams the rifle. Yup, it takes a village to raise an idiot, and even an idiot can bugger up a controlled round feed.

Funny. I actually thought this thread would be exactly one post long based on the non debatability of the OP. Boy, did I ever call that one wrong!!!!!




I am traveling and may not see this forum for a few days..so wanted to make sure this doesn't go negative..I have NO axe to grind here..think the Mauser is probably the best ever..and as you state have used Remingtons most of my life with no failures as well..my last post was a feeble attempt at humor...


Have a great day

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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gryphon
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Ripp]
      #287578 - 09/09/16 04:10 AM

Lost in translation there are no axes...thats it!

I too have both controlled and push jobs,neither have failed me in all sorts of trial conditions but I had a thought that if I had the money would I build new on a Win action or a Mauser action.
Well I think something like the Mayfair would win,then of course there would be no one to pick it to pieces lol!

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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: gryphon]
      #287581 - 09/09/16 06:59 AM

No worries at all Ripp!!!! I was having a bit of fun with it as well. . If you haven't already figured it out, I'm a bit of a windbag and do ramble on a lot!!!! The thing that makes this forum great is that it is founded on respect, with a healthy dollop of grace and tact..... Travel safe!!!!

P.s. I do agree with your original post.... The M98 and its many many derivatives are in my very humble opinion worthy of the best rifle design ever award, and a push is just a branch in its evolutionary tree. All the best, Postman

Edited by Postman (09/09/16 07:09 AM)


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lonewulf
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287585 - 09/09/16 09:31 AM

Quote:



Controlled round feed? Yup, expensive to produce and pretty dang cool, but a Remmy 700 will feed very effectively even when "up freakin side down"!!!! So who gives a shit about overly complicated gear? Controlled round feed only matters for those who want something to sell to the market that is arguably not necessary or required but want to be different and "need" a distinguishing feature.... This is simply a marketing play and no more. I have both and respect that they both must be handled slightly different lest one "dangs" it up and jams the rifle. Yup, it takes a village to raise an idiot, and even an idiot can bugger up a controlled round feed.






Well, I'm not sure if the above was intended as a joke or not (if it was I apologize in advance) but whatever the case I would maybe go so far as to say controlled round feed could be considered 'overkill' in certain shooting situations but "marketing" - OMG no! And although a well made Remington is probably good enough for most hunting applications it would, IMO, be fatuous to suggest it's in the same league as a Mauser.

If you were stuck way out in the back of beyond in a nasty life or death situation and you had the option of a 98 or a Remington would you really take the latter with it's lack of CRF, its puny extractor and it's little spring activated button ejector - over a Mauser? Seriously?

Edited by lonewulf (09/09/16 09:34 AM)


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Postman
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #287590 - 09/09/16 11:46 AM

I'd take my double rifle in such a situation.

To call CRF simply marketing is harsh indeed but it sure would seem that many manufacturers are jumping all over that feature and hollering from the top of their advertising dollars that if one doesn't have CRF, then one is doomed to suffer unreliability which just isn't so.

Anyhow, I suppose I'm not really much married to the outcome one way or the other, but I do believe the argument for one over the other is really more rooted in one's personal belief system than in any critical technical merit of one vs another, particularly when one notes that 99% of hunting does not involve DG. Confidence in one's equipment is worth millions in a sticky situation and of that I do firmly believe. Gosh, we should have maybe spun this discussion off into its own dedicated thread, CRF vs Push Feed....... And to answer your question: yes I'd take the CRF Mauser in the very narrow scope of hunting that is DG. Why not? But I wouldn't feel terribly impaired (other than its crappy 2 round magazine capacity) if I had a Weatherby MK V big bore push feed in my hands either.


Edited by Postman (09/09/16 03:02 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287592 - 09/09/16 12:15 PM

I kind of like my M76 in .50/95 - but any rifle would be welcome, as long as it smacked hard enough. The Marlin model 1895 .45/70 also fits. Both are pretty much controlled round feed.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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lonewulf
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Re: The greatest rifle ever made??? [Re: Postman]
      #287599 - 09/09/16 03:19 PM

Well, as noted in my initial response, I believe a non-CRF rifle, such as the Remington, would be fine for a good many hunting situations and indeed in most instances, and possibly all of them. However, that isn't to say it's a 'better' action than a Mauser 98. You could for example probably do just fine on any DG hunt armed with almost any action type you liked, chambered in 30-06, but that doesn't mean the rifle, whatever it might be, is a good choice.

Unlike the Remington, the Mauser has a number of inbuilt safety features that make it about as reliable and safe as a bolt action possibly can be. CRF is but one of those features. And no, it's not essential to the operation of the rifle under normal circumstances. But neither is a safety belt essential equipment in a car - under normal driving conditions. But stressful situations, such as warfare and the hunting of DG for example, can make people do things that they normally wouldn't, like attempting to insert a round in a breech that already has a round in it. This is a common mistake. That possibility is largely eliminated in a 98 but not so in a Remington. If you mistakenly attempt to double charge your Remington while facing DG you may find yourself in the invidious position of having to immobilize the uncooperative brut with repeated blows from what is now, for all intents and purposes, a club.

And if you don't believe that sort of mistake would happen, just have a look at the records of muzzle loaders recovered after some of the battles in the Civil War. A surprising number of them were found to have been loaded, right to the muzzle, with un-fired charges.

Edited by lonewulf (09/09/16 03:20 PM)


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