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CFA
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Reged: 17/02/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Austin, Texas
My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel
      #28688 - 31/03/05 03:45 PM

I feel like I have lost a best friend . As NE450#2 was helping me finish development of a load for my Holland a 5 inch piece of the barrel blew off the side of the right barrel just in front of the forend. Fortunately his hand was not there and no one was hurt. I know NE will want to comment on this and it would be good to know if anyone has heard of a correlation between blowouts and doubles made before WW1. I believe he was using Reloader 15 and he was using Woodleigh softs it was not a high powder load he was following all the specs, but it just gave out. I know this happens from time to time but it sure hurts when it happens to you. I will be buying another double so I want to find out as much as I can if there are any time periods that have shown a higher incidence of barrel failure, if you have any specific information please post it.

I would like to add that George Caswell with Champlin Arms was great about the whole thing and promptly refunded my entire purchase price.

CFA

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mickey
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CFA]
      #28689 - 31/03/05 04:42 PM

Wow. Glad no one was hurt.

Was there any pitting or cordite burning in the barrel?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NE450No2
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: mickey]
      #28690 - 31/03/05 06:23 PM

The right bbl blew out a 5" to 6" chunk of steel 2 inches if front of the hand guard.
I had done other range sessions working up a load, starting with 86 grains of RL 15, going up in 1 grain increments to 90 grains. This rifle had the original big flat firing pins and at 90 grains the primers started to cause the rifle to be a little sticky to open. There were never any other pressure signs. The best load was 88 grains, and the day the bbls blew was to be my last range session shooting the 88 grain load with Woodleigh softs at 25 50 75 and 100 yards. The bbl blew when I was shooting kneeling at 50 yards.

I had looked the bbls over very good for CFA before he bought the rifle at the DSC. The outside and inside were in very good shape. No pits or cordite burn.
The forend and ribs were not damaged.

I have seen two other of double rifles that have burst the bbls in the same manner. One was a H&H Dominion. I have seen 3 other Dominions that had replacement bbls, but do not know why they were replaced.I know of one Evans rifle that burst with Federal Factory 470,s.


As a result I am doing a little research.
I would like to recieve any information on other double rifles that have burst barrels.

Make of rifle, year built, calibre, load, and how much the rifle was shot with modern loads before the bbls blew.

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Rusty
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: NE450No2]
      #28691 - 31/03/05 07:53 PM

Very glad to see that both of you are not hurt. Rifles are replaceable, good friends are hard to come by!

CFA, I think we can find you a double to shoot at the upcoming DRSS hog hunt.

Hats off to George Caswell who once again proves to be not only a credible dealer, but one heck of a stand up guy! He certainly made it right for CFA. I don't know too many folks who could have done that!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!
DRSS

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: Rusty]
      #28693 - 31/03/05 08:54 PM

I am glad neither of you were hurt either and it must have been quite a shock.

In reply to:

Hats off to George Caswell who once again proves to be not only a credible dealer, but one heck of a stand up guy! He certainly made it right for CFA. I don't know too many folks who could have done that!



I agree 100%.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: NE450No2]
      #28695 - 31/03/05 09:52 PM

Wow, what a shock. We all had vicariously enjoyed your acquisition of that fine rifle last month. Now a catastrophic failure. Thank goodness there was no injury.

I think I speak for all when I say that an event like this is a fear that always lies in the back of our minds. If something can be learned from it, that is the only good to be salvaged.

Would you share all the details of the loads, etc.? You made no mention of a filler. Were you using a filler with your loads? Had there been any indication of trouble aside from the balky opening at 90 grains?

It makes me recall Graeme Wright's chapter on "Damage to Double Rifles." He states that he gets his barrels x-rayed by a testing firm. Does anybody on the forum get their barrels tested in this manner? If so, have any such tests revealed hidden flaws? Does anybody have information of who might do such testing, and where? I leave this question wide open, because we would all like to know of such a testing firm in our own country.

Again, I am so thankful that CFA and NE450No2 are walking, talking, and still using all their fingers.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CptCurl]
      #28711 - 01/04/05 01:05 AM

Too bad about the rifle, but glad you guys are still ok.



--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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new_guy
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: NE450No2]
      #28712 - 01/04/05 01:16 AM

Definitely grateful no one was hurt.

Out of curiosity, what was the velocity on the loads that blew it?

PS - I'd call George a 200% stand-behind-his-product dealer... I can't imagine any dealer standing behind a gun that blew up with handloads. Hell, no manufacturers will stand behind that - much less a dealer!

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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mstarling
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: new_guy]
      #28714 - 01/04/05 02:18 AM

Wow ... what a terrible range day! Thank goodness that there were no injuries. Even so, such a thing will definitely get your adrenalin running pretty hard.

Good on George for his stand up customer support.

mike

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mickey
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: mstarling]
      #28721 - 01/04/05 03:32 AM

450

In rreply to your post.

I have seen two rifles as you describe. A WR 450 3 1/4 blow out the right barrel about where you describe. I do not know the load but do know it was R-15.

An Army Navy 470 right in front of the chambers. 3031.

I don't use R-15 so I don't know the loads but isn't 87 grains the Federal Premium load for the 470? What should the 465 be in R-15?

It seems you could get a local testing lab to magna flux barrels for a reasonable price if you took it in.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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CFA
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Loc: Austin, Texas
Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CptCurl]
      #28727 - 01/04/05 04:40 AM

Curl,

Thanks to you and everyone else for your comments. I like your idea about testing the barrels, I want to do everything possible before I start out with another double.

As was said lets use this to try to prevent this happening to anyone else, the next one might not be so lucky.

Shame to have a rifle ruined, but hey if it had happened later I would have been in front of a very big elephant who might have decided he did not like my looks.

CFA

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NE450No2
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CFA]
      #28731 - 01/04/05 07:49 AM

I was using foam filler just like I use in my doubles.
89.25 grains of RL 15 would be the standard "foumula" load for 75 grains of Cordite. That was the load marked on the bbl flats.
Nothing out of the ordinary had occured in any of the previous range sessions.
When bbls let go in the "middle" it is not due to high pressure. The pressure is greatest in the chamber area.
This rifle suffered the classic bbl split/burst loosing about a 6" piece of steel. In the other bbls I have seen, they split to the muzzle, with one splitting back toward the action as well.

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bonanza
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: NE450No2]
      #28733 - 01/04/05 07:57 AM

What is the final analysis? Bad metallurgy or a hidden flaw in manufacturing that finally read it ugly head?



--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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NE450No2
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: bonanza]
      #28735 - 01/04/05 08:03 AM

George Caswell is looking for a place to send the bbls and have them inspected.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: NE450No2]
      #28738 - 01/04/05 08:56 AM

NE450No2,

Does this occurrence make you suspect or doubt R-15 at all?

I was just getting ready to try R-15 in my Woodward .450/.400 3.25" and now wonder what to think about the idea.

Certainly you are correct that at the standard conversion formula of 1.19 R-15 : 1.00 Cord you were well within parameters, and the foam should top it off fine.

How in the world can George Caswell eat this problem, or is it going back to a consignor? That's incredible given what he was asking for that rifle.

I don't have the luxury of a "George" to pick up the pieces of mine if it blows, though.

So back to the question, could R-15 have mysterious behavior traits like 3031?

Thanks for the info. Thinking of your day at the range makes me shiver. We are all with you and CFA in spirit.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
The pressure curve... [Re: NE450No2]
      #28739 - 01/04/05 08:58 AM

Hm.

My understanding of the dynamics of interior ballistics is that interior pressures reach their peak at about one third the way from the breech, or in the neighborhood of seven to nine inches from the breech face, and not in the chamber.

i'll look into my texts and notes and try to figure why I'd been left with that impression but it's one that's been with me for years.

funny too, that's where I've seen most of the deformations in bulged barrels I've seen besides steel shot mishaps in shotguns...


go figure


--Tinker


--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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JudgeG
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Re: The pressure curve... [Re: tinker]
      #28741 - 01/04/05 09:32 AM

I've dealt with George Caswell several times in the past and I'm not surprised with his "beyond the call of duty" reaction to this incident. I'm going to make a mental note to first look at his wares before I buy any rifle in the future. What a guy!

CFA, I hope you find something from the fellow that Mark is helping you with (He called me yesterday for the telephone number, etc). My suggestion is to spend 10 to 12K on a quality .450/.400 to use for now, put the rest of the money in the bank and get you another H&H when you find the perfect one. You'll always get your money out of the .450/.400.

Tony, I can't imagine how you felt when the gun blew. I was once training a friends lab puppy when it jumped up a deer and ran in front of a truck.... You just want to blame yourself, regardless of the reason. Thank God for guys like George and CFA who understand that these things just happen!

See ya'll at Raggedy Ass Creek!



--------------------
JudgeG
Old and getting older, I hope. But once I was young.

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NE450No2
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CptCurl]
      #28742 - 01/04/05 09:49 AM

CaptCurl
No it does not make me suspect of RL 15.\
This is the first blow up with reloads I am aware of with RL 15. I know of a blow up with Federal factory 470, and I have read there were two in Europe with Federal Factory.

There have been blow ups with IMR 3031 and IMR 4831.
My current belief is that it does not make ANY difference which powder you use in your double rifle. I do not think the problem is related to the burn rate of a particular powder. I think the problem is with older barrel steel. The 3 sets of blown barrels I have seen have all been from doubles prior to WW1.
It does seem strange that the bbls I have seen have all burst just in front of the forend, [and away from the ribs which I can understand as it is the path of least resistance].
I have used IMR 4198, IMR 4831, and RL 15 in my 450 No2 and my 450/400 3 1/4", as well as a lot of IMR 3031 in the 450 No2. I have a lot of rounds through these rifles with no problems.

When brass and bullets again became avialable for vintage doubles IMR 3031 was the powder of choice, some guns blew up. Several people then recommended IMR 4831, and some guns blew up, now RL15 is the powder of choice, and some guns have blown up, even with the Federal Factory load.
What I would like to know if someone who had been shooting his double with one powder, then switched to another, and THEN blew up a bbl. OR these bbl blow ups the result of a double that has not been used since the early rebirth, and are just now being pressed back into service.
Also are the blow ups related to a specific time period or a specific barrel maker?

That is the type of info I am researching.

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CFA
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Re: The pressure curve... [Re: JudgeG]
      #28743 - 01/04/05 10:27 AM

Judge

As you say after this I will try to buy only from George unless a great one comes along at a great price, then I would send it to JJ for analysis. When you have a dealer who will stand behind his guns and a great gunsmith/riflemaker able to fix whatever comes along, he will rebarrel the Holland, that's who I want to deal with. Just too many things to go wrong with the vintage doubles but I guarantee you I will find another vintage double if I don't buy this one back with new barrels.

Thanks for your help with Mark, I have plenty of time as my ele hunt is not booked until 2007. So I am going to try to find another Holland best gun or one that handles just like it. That fellow is a little too proud of his Hollands. If he were in driving distance I would certainly go see what he has. Please e-mail me if you know of another double that he has comparable to the Holland, Rigby, Westley etc. See you at DRSS even if I have to borrow a double.

I hope the dialog keeps going on trying to identify rifles, loads etc that may have a higher incidence of problems.

CFA

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ArnoldB
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CFA]
      #28745 - 01/04/05 12:03 PM

The first I heard about one going was about 5 years ago.
There have been a few since(or even before) as mentioned above but nobody has been hurt as of yet.

From what I know it has always been the right barrel that blew up and always near where the brazing has been done as in chamber area.



-My own personal view is that it has to do with the metal compostion of the steel used(those barrels were never designed to fire high pressure modern powder)

-Temper embrittlement to a degree (some explanation here here
)Not quite the same as what is explained in that doc but heading towards that direction. One doesn't harden a barrel...
Don't forget in those days one didn't have a blowtorch nor electrical heating elements to heat up the chopper lumps to brazing temperature which is very high as one wants to brazing to flow everywhere, more lickely heated in forge in some way, I have never asked anyone how it used to be done.
The temper embrittlement could happen by the barrel cooling down to quickly and actually hardening it in places, an open window and a draft in the workshop could do that one as far as I know.

-Heating high carbon steel up to great temperature also has different effects as in weakening it, you might have to ask 2piper and ChuckH on gunshop they corrected me in a way last time I came out with something similar..
The reason I think like that is as there was a piece broken off..
This is very good read about an analysis after a gun blew up
http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb/762r.html (found through a link on accuratreloading..)
He doesn't mention where the heat of the metal was for to long.

-Metal fatigue, continual exposure to high pressure, from what I know it was always the right barrel..right barrel that's most lickely to be most shot and used.
Don't see any relevance with looking for barrel obstructions or reloading error or ammo error.

Those are just my personal views, I'm not a metallurgist nor claim to be one but like you interested in what causes them.
These things unfortunately do happen.

.50AccuracyInternational with error in barrel steel?



Hope it makes some sense and is helpfull.
Let us know if you find out some more, I can see an accident happening with someone on safari.

Arnold




Edited by ArnoldB (01/04/05 12:05 PM)

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NE450No2
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: ArnoldB]
      #28746 - 01/04/05 12:20 PM

ArnoldB
The other two double rifle barrels that I have seen and ezxamined, one from a 500/465 H&H Dominion, the other from a Evans 470, both blew out the LEFT barrel.
the major damage starts about 13 inches from the breech.

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mickey
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Re: The pressure curve... [Re: CFA]
      #28747 - 01/04/05 12:31 PM

CFA

Yu might be smart to tell George you want the Holland back after it is rebarreled. The cost of the new barrels will be around $8,000 + -. It will sell for substantial less the originally and be better.(one would hope at least)

You may even end up with enough left over for a 400.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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SteveH
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CFA]
      #28748 - 01/04/05 02:08 PM

Fred,

Geez! Glad that neither you nor NE was hurt. I know how excited you were to use that rifle on your hunt. Even though you have the right attitude about it, it's still a shame. I sure hope you find another that makes your heart skip.

-Steve

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bwanabloke
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: SteveH]
      #28749 - 01/04/05 03:06 PM

Iam sure there is something in Graeme Wrights book on a couple of doubles being damaged after using rel 15 caused by pressure spikes ,i think it was factory Federal ammo that did it

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tinker
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Re: My Holland .500/.465 blew a barrel [Re: CFA]
      #28751 - 01/04/05 03:44 PM

What was the barrel length and overall weight of this rifle?
Did you guys photograph the blown barrel? Did you recover all the blown material and photograph it too?
When was the gun proofed?


I've handled a lot of blown up equipment, not nearly as many guns as engines and machines, but I've seen quite a few blown barrels.
I'd have looked closely at the broken bits and examined the ripped surfaces.
I would have been looking for consistent color and texture of material across the torn edge of the metal. I've seen hundreds of broken parts that had somewhat peened looking or -darker than the rest of the metal- areas of the ripped or broken edge of blown equipment. That could indicate some kind of previous stress or crack having been present, peened surfaces being caused by the heaving of the cracked metal during the cyclic stress of use, dark metal from corrosion having been present in a crack in a dormant piece of macinery, then blown upon reawakening. Sometimes you'll see a texture in the ripped surface that might look almost like ripped meat, then somewhere in the middle of things chrystalization or granulation, indicating some kind of heat treatment issue or alloy problem having been the cause.

Clean metal with consistent surface texture all through the broken surfaces, with no irregularities or discolorations, peening or shiny or worn looking areas would look right off the bat to be from a big pressure spike.
If it was a problem with the steel, there would likely be some tell tale sign in the meat of the broken area.

Did you see anything odd when you inspected the barrels afterwards?
Do you have access to the pieces so as to photograph them and show them off to the group here?

What was the wall thickness of that barrel where it blew?
The same as it was at the muzzle?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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