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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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ducmarc
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Loc: fla
thinking of a combination gun
      #286744 - 22/08/16 01:19 PM

Anyone make a combo that has a long range barrel 7mm or 300 flanged or over a big inch caliber 45-90 and above. So you have close range bear or long range sheep.so you don't have the he's too far or oh shit he's next to me in the laurels instead of see through mounts could do offset irons on the side like the AR guys do.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #286753 - 22/08/16 05:28 PM

They're called a Bergstutzen. That sort of combination option you want is sometimes referred to as "Grosskaliber" does exist. The big calibre is usually a 9,3x74R, (which is in the .35 Whelan class. It is a rimmed version of the 9,3x62 which has a good reputation in Africa and is popular in Europe. Several makers produce it. There's loading data in Noslers previous manual). The small calibre varies from rifle to rifle; for instance, .308 Winchester, (An Adamy Suhler), 5,6x50R, (a Blaser B750/88), and .30-06 (Merkel B4) are all for sale on Egun, (a German language website). These are used rifles.

Beware that some other combo rifles, (not listed above), have the large calibre as an insert barrel in a shotgun tube, so you can take it out and shoot 20g shot/slugs too. Only specially strong actions permit use of such a heavy rifle insert.

Because scope objective bells are often large these days, the old idea of looking through the bottom of the mounts and using iron sights, is mostly gone. But that's not to say you might not get lucky. Some are still around. Make sure both front and rear mounts have this see-through. Of course, they quick detach mostly, so this is not so important. Frankly it is also slow to open sight through the small narrow hole.

Not so popular now, but you could once buy a leather scope tube that you could sling across your shoulder using its' shoulder strap. The lid was strapped on so that you could fairly quickly get rid of your scope without having to necessarily get it's case out of your pack, worrying about the lid falling off etc. But if a quality scope has a good range with low-power available, this probably makes iron sights redundant anyway. With the scope on say 2.5x you can pick out which eyeball you want to shoot your bear through, rather than shoot with irons into a dark centre mass inside the tree shadows and hope.

You know, another option (using just one rifle), could be to have nickel plated ammo with heavy bullets, brass cases with light, sight in for the light and know the difference for the heavy stuff which, at short range might not matter too much. The different cases are to make sure you don't shoot your bear with the sheep load and visa-versa.


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ducmarc
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #286797 - 23/08/16 11:07 AM

I guess a slug in one barrel would work too.I figured someone had done it.an overunder I'd say.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #286813 - 23/08/16 07:43 PM

One option. You could go for a .30R Blaser or a .300 Win Mag and a .450 NE. Or something similar.

http://www.heymusa.com/55_b.htm

Quote:

The 55B is perhaps the most versatile model of HEYM's fine firearms. Four different barrel configurations are available to mix and match; rifle over rifle, shotgun over shotgun, shotgun over rifle or large rifle over small rifle. The possibilities for tailoring the model 55 to your specific requirements are plentiful.




Quote:

Available Rifle Calibers
.308 Win.
.30-06
.30 R Blaser
7x65 R
8x57 IRS
8x75 RS
9.3x74 R
300 Win Mag
375 H&H Belted or Flanged
416 Rigby
416/500 N.E.
450/400 3" N.E.*
458 Win Mag
450 N.E.*
470 N.E.
500 N.E.
20 Gauge|
*Regulated with Hornady Ammunition

Available Shotgun Gauges
20 Gauge (2.75" or 3")
16 Gauge (2.75")
12 Gauge (2.75 or 3")




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Postman
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: NitroX]
      #286815 - 23/08/16 09:27 PM

My first thought is: why would someone want such a configuration?

After pondering this for some time, a light bulb goes off!!! (I'm a little slow). Of course!!!!!!! Think of those who hunt with a single shot for DG and backed up by a good PH with a stopping rifle... The possibility of seeing incidental plains game is very high. Maybe a .470NE combined with a 9.3x74R or some such other combination?

I would not personally hunt elephant or other DG with a single shot (leopard from a blind being the exception), but others quite happily and successfully do - witness the Boddington on Buffalo DVD series.


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ducmarc
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Postman]
      #286852 - 24/08/16 07:51 AM

270 flanged by 450 ne

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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Postman
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #286859 - 24/08/16 10:32 AM

HI Ducmarc:

I told you I was slow! I missed the entire reference in the OP and got the continent wrong!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: NitroX]
      #286868 - 24/08/16 03:29 PM

Quote:

One option. You could go for a .30R Blaser or a .300 Win Mag and a .450 NE. Or something similar.

http://www.heymusa.com/55_b.htm

Quote:

Available Rifle Calibers
.308 Win.
.30-06
.30 R Blaser
7x65 R
8x57 IRS
8x75 RS
9.3x74 R
300 Win Mag
375 H&H Belted or Flanged
416 Rigby
416/500 N.E.
450/400 3" N.E.*
458 Win Mag
450 N.E.*
470 N.E.
500 N.E.
20 Gauge|
*Regulated with Hornady Ammunition

Available Shotgun Gauges
20 Gauge (2.75" or 3")
16 Gauge (2.75")
12 Gauge (2.75 or 3")







Interesting there is no smaller calibres in this line up. German hunters often like to have a smaller calibre with a medium calibre. Or matched with a shotgun barrel. Say a .22 centrefire with a medium, eg 7x65R. As when sitting in their hochsitz it allows a variety of game to be shot.

Myself I like the 9.3x74R and often do not see the need to match the 9.3mm with another medium sized cartridge. The 9.3x74R to me is quite mild.

Nicely balanced lighter medium doubles in the 7x65R class are a wonder though.

It would be interesting to see the regulation process involved here, but I guess it is not actually different from a firearm with two carrels chambered the same.

I used a 9.3x62 Under and Over Heym at the International Challenge in the balloon shooting competition. I do not remember what the model number was. It was a very affordable rifle and also very accurate.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: NitroX]
      #287124 - 29/08/16 07:32 AM

A thought for Postman: Don't dismiss a double or triple gun for leopard.

"It must always be remembered that a leopard may well return to a kill after a shot has missed it, a camera has clicked, or flashlights have exploded. From a hunting point of view, a double-barrel weapon gives a great advantage here: for, in the event of a clean miss, the watcher can remain completely still, yet retain an instant second shot should the creature return", (The Leopard by Peter Turnball-Kent, 1967).

I'm sure this return to bait would only rarely happen, but it seems to me that if I had a 7x65R/7x65R or similar, with a large objective scope for low-light work, I would not dismiss it as an option. Likewise, a normal Drilling would be a useful follow-up firearm if loaded with heavy buckshot. Some people have suggested that a double-rifle Drilling (such as 9.3x74R/9.3x74R), would be the best in this role, but usually these have just a 20 gauge beneath to keep weight down. I wouldn't want to rely on a 20 gauge to face a leopard charge when two 12 gauge tubes would do the job so much better with something like a 7x65R or 8x75RS barrel to cover the bait.

A Bergstutzen, (a light and a heavy calibre rifle combination), will cover the sheep/bear scenario. Our you could also look for something like an 8x68S or .30-06 rifle that will happily take long shots but also have the muscle to deal with bears. Someone reviewing the 8x68S said that, as an antelope rifle it had no peer. I find it's recoil is moderate, accuracy is very good and it is a pound lighter and more compact than my .375H&H.

Regulating the Bergstutzen will mean that it converges at some predetermined point and I guess that's where you set your scope. But the 2 calibres will behave differently beyond that. So if you take this option, I'd suggest practising at 200 and 300 yards to see what happens.


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Postman
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #287134 - 29/08/16 11:21 AM

Hi Kiwi

Admittedly, I have never hunted leopard. I am a highly experienced textbook hunter.... Ugh.... Thruthfully, I don't understand squat about it. I am simply quoting others who have actually hunted and written about same.... Shoot at the cat on the branch, cat runs away as if it was scalded..... I defer to any and all on this one given my tenure of zero minutes in a leopard blind....

Respectfully,

Postman


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windy
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Postman]
      #292695 - 28/12/16 01:28 PM

I've always thought the 7x57 is a pretty good all-around caliber--worked for Bell on jumbos. 7x57R/12ga or 16ga will handle anything if you can shoot, and it's one of the most common configurations for BBF's and cape guns. Mine is the Brno ZH-204; hefty enough to shoot full-deck 7x57 loads, and Brenneke makes a pretty good slug for the 12. I just got a set trigger for it; somebody in Manitoba put one on ebay, and it dropped right in; just two pins. I'd rather have a drilling, but...this'll do.

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DarylS
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #292711 - 28/12/16 02:58 PM

Quote:

Anyone make a combo that has a long range barrel 7mm or 300 flanged or over a big inch caliber 45-90 and above. So you have close range bear or long range sheep.so you don't have the he's too far or oh shit he's next to me in the laurels instead of see through mounts could do offset irons on the side like the AR guys do.




Not that difficult to imagine - a 7x65R over a rifled 16 or 12 bore.

Never heard of one, but, with some of the slugs available today, or good round ball loads, the smoothbores would work perfectly to about 60-75yards. My 12 was accurate enough to keep 2 lefts and 2 rights on a 10" steel plate at 10 meters, offhand - round balls and 'sighted' smoothbore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Postman]
      #292777 - 29/12/16 01:45 PM

Quote:

Hi Kiwi

Admittedly, I have never hunted leopard. I am a highly experienced textbook hunter.... Ugh.... Thruthfully, I don't understand squat about it. I am simply quoting others who have actually hunted and written about same.... Shoot at the cat on the branch, cat runs away as if it was scalded..... I defer to any and all on this one given my tenure of zero minutes in a leopard blind....

Respectfully,

Postman




I have sat many hours in a leopard blind..and many more with no shows than shows..in my experience, you are going to sit a very long time before you get a second shot if you miss the first one..and if that is the case trust me, you will have plenty of time to rack another round in your bolt action rifle...

As for me using a shotgun in a blind for leopard..NO WAY IN HELL...I have read where the experts warn about using one following up a wounded leopard let alone as the initial shot, as it usually will not kill on the spot....AND the blinds are NOT that close to the bait where I would even consider the shotgun to be effective on the first shot..each blind I sat in was around 80 to 100 yards or more....on 3 separate hunts...

Just watched the late Ian Gibson on video 2 nights ago following up a wounded leopard with a semi-auto shotgun...he hit it but it did not die..was killed by another fellow to his left with another shot...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (30/12/16 01:07 AM)


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Well_Well_Well
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Ripp]
      #292779 - 29/12/16 02:43 PM

I'd suggest looking at a double in 375 H&H. Shoots flat enough to reach out, while being heavy enough to manage up close.

A QD scope mount will be the difference. If you can get one at around 4kg, you'll have a near ideal setup.


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Postman
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #292786 - 29/12/16 10:19 PM

I do have a combi gun. It is a lovely little thing circa 1937, Kersten lock, deep engraving and tasteful gold inlay, 16 Gauge 2 1/2" over 7x57R.

My application of said combi is sometimes using it for deer hunting as a single shot, (and occasional moose) with some bird shot loaded for the occasional grouse I happen to see along the way back from my stand. I too do not put any stock in buck shot. I have seen triple ought work effectively at 20 yards, but it made a mess of the deer with lots of ruined bloodshot meat and didn't penetrate deeply..... Deep enough to kill but certainly no pass throughs.

The other application I sometimes use it for is as a bird gun as first consideration with a few cartridges in my pocket should I happen to stumble across a black bear.

The shotgun shells are all but impossible to buy anymore, so I buy 2 3/4" factory shells and modify the length with a crimp cutter and roll crimper for my drill press. Cutting off the crimp around the circumference of the shell then dumping out a tiny measured amount of the shot, just enough to place a thin waxed cardboard circle on top of the shot gives me just enough plastic to apply a roll crimp. And, voila! I now have 2 1/2" 16 gauge shells!

Would I buy another combi gun? I'm not sure I would.... I have drooled over the Heym O/U currently available, but I have mixed feelings over it. I prefer to bird hunt with a SxS 28 gauge, and I find I do like a second shot quickly available for the type of rifle hunting I do. I find that the combi gun's greatest appeal is that it is super light weight and fits very well. I tend to bring it along with me when my goal is more about fresh air and appreciating the outdoors than when I am involved in a serious hunt.

I have yet to try rifled slugs in the 16 gauge combi gun and will at some point work out the concern about rifled slug shell length in my old school short chamber. Maybe if it works out, I will find I have a useful two shot deer gun with a slug and a 7x57R bullet........ I'm still pondering this notion.


Edited by Postman (29/12/16 10:38 PM)


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HeymSR20
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Postman]
      #292797 - 30/12/16 04:54 AM

I have a 7x65r and 16 bore combination. The 7x65r will do pretty much anything that a 30-06 / 270/ 7mm R.E.M. Mag will do. I have used it to take red and roe deer out to 200ish yards. I have shot it out to 350 and was repeadidly hitting an 18 inch sized rock.

A 16 bore slug certainly will act as a good stopper, but so will the 7x65r.

Norma load a 170gn oryx at 2650fps https://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Hunting/7x65-R/Oryx1/

Or 156gn at 2720 - https://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Hunting/7x65-R/Oryx/

With those or equivalent from RWS or Geco or Hornady it will put most things on the deck.

Please do get a rimmed calibre - a break action needs a rimmed cartridge, and to reload the empties just fall out.


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mchughcb
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: HeymSR20]
      #292842 - 30/12/16 10:31 PM

My idea combo. 30R blaser and 12/76.

However my 7x57R 12/76 does alright, on small and medium game.
I recommend a scope and aimpoint with QD mounts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Rpg92fGcY&t=765s

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCddWurYAjA

plus basically anything that flies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rCyVrnENgY


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xausa
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: mchughcb]
      #292854 - 31/12/16 04:57 AM

My Krieghoff Ulm Primus 9.3X74R double rifle is equipped with a set of combination gun barrels: 16 gauge over 7X75R SE vom Hofe, a sort of rimmed 7mm Remington Magnum. I have had a K&S full length insert barrel in caliber 6X52R Bretschneider fitted. The 6X52R lies between the 5.6X52R (22 Savage High Power) and the 6.5X52R (.25-35 Winchester). It is thought of as a roe deer caliber, but is certainly capable of killing a white tail, as is the .22 Savage High Power. This combination gives me a more or less classic Bergstutzen to supplement my double rifle and the additional set of 16 gauge shotgun barrels.

K&S (Keller & Simmann) http://www.einstecklauf.de/classic.html make full length insert barrels in calibers ranging from 17 Hornet to .45-70 Government. The point of impact is adjustable from the muzzle, so the two barrels can be made to shoot to the same point of aim at a given range. I find the combination ideal for my deer stand, with one caliber for close range and the other for longer range. If I were still able to walk any distance, it would be an ideal still hunting or stalking rifle as well.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: ducmarc]
      #292924 - 01/01/17 05:54 AM

Quote:

Anyone make a combo that has a long range barrel 7mm or 300 flanged or over a big inch caliber 45-90 and above. So you have close range bear or long range sheep.so you don't have the he's too far or oh shit he's next to me in the laurels instead of see through mounts could do offset irons on the side like the AR guys do.




One of the problems of this sort of setup is if the long range sheep hunting barrel is not accurate enough in the field for the job. One rarely reads or hears of a comination, double rifle etc used for that sort of hunting.

Double rifle and combination barrels can be very accurate. The first double rifle I ever shot was an U/O 5.6x50R and .22 Magnum. The 5.6 barrel shot to a three shot one hole group at 100 metres. My Tikka U/O double rifle is also very accurate. Combination rifle barrels can also be very accurate until the thin barrels heat up. Not an issue if firing only a shot or two at a time.

A possible solution would be to sight the LR range in for the scope specifically for sheep hunting. And hope or work out that the second bigger barrel is adequately sighted for closer range work. Very possible

One would have to lug around a possibly heavier firearm in the mountains though.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: xausa]
      #292925 - 01/01/17 05:57 AM

Quote:

My Krieghoff Ulm Primus 9.3X74R double rifle is equipped with a set of combination gun barrels: 16 gauge over 7X75R SE vom Hofe, a sort of rimmed 7mm Remington Magnum. I have had a K&S full length insert barrel in caliber 6X52R Bretschneider fitted. The 6X52R lies between the 5.6X52R (22 Savage High Power) and the 6.5X52R (.25-35 Winchester). It is thought of as a roe deer caliber, but is certainly capable of killing a white tail, as is the .22 Savage High Power. This combination gives me a more or less classic Bergstutzen to supplement my double rifle and the additional set of 16 gauge shotgun barrels.

K&S (Keller & Simmann) http://www.einstecklauf.de/classic.html make full length insert barrels in calibers ranging from 17 Hornet to .45-70 Government. The point of impact is adjustable from the muzzle, so the two barrels can be made to shoot to the same point of aim at a given range. I find the combination ideal for my deer stand, with one caliber for close range and the other for longer range. If I were still able to walk any distance, it would be an ideal still hunting or stalking rifle as well.






You have some very interesting and useful firearms. And different ones. One rarely hears of a 7mm Super Express Vom Hofe.

With the inset barrels does the rifle inser barrel need to be resighted in if removed and put back in?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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xausa
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: NitroX]
      #292967 - 01/01/17 02:48 PM

"With the inset barrels does the rifle inser barrel need to be resighted in if removed and put back in?"

Theoretically not, but I have never removed mine and replaced it, so I have no personal experience to report.


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Waidmannsheil
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: xausa]
      #293034 - 02/01/17 08:43 PM

I have always thought a 12/16 gauge over 222rimmed would be the ideal gun for fox shooting especially whistling or walking with your dog.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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500Boswell
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #293078 - 03/01/17 03:33 PM

A 300 Win mag [ease of getting ammo]over a 500 Nitro ,you would only need the one gun for Africa ,plus a spare set of over ,under shotgun barrels ,a QD scope for the 300 and the open sights for the 500 barrel.

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Tom_H
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Re: thinking of a combination gun [Re: 500Boswell]
      #295485 - 19/02/17 03:41 AM

I have or had a number of combinations and capes but seldom take them out. For the most part they are just too heavy or at least feel that way.
Had one of the Brnos in 7x57R and 12 ga. Somebody did a crap job of trying to regulate the 12 bore so I didn't feel too bad about reaming the choke to make things right. Worked out great with classic Brenekees.
Shot a 200# pig with it once. Dogs were on it and it came through on a left right crossing. Put a 175 7mm behind the shoulder and it passed through in front of the ham. It didn't even break stride. As it ran past I put a slug quartering away through the entrance hole from the rifle. That worked.
Yes, the dogs remained unscathed.
Well built gun but I was never able to get used to the safety in the trigger guard so I let it go.

Picked up a Zoli 6.5x55 x 12ga a few years back. The 6.5 is spectacularly accurate but no degree of regulation worked to bring the 12 into the same location (it has adjustable barrels like the Valmet). The trigger is fair at best and until I come up with a solution it is relegated to the safe.

As an aside, finding one of these types of guns and installing an adapter as mentioned above could work out well, lets say in 45-70-500.
Just try and find one with a set trigger for the rifle barrel.


Cheers

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny


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