Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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Dear esteemed forum members:
I am in the process of ordering a new Heym Express bolt rifle and am waffling between the two cartridges mentioned. I am leaning toward the .416 Rigby but would like any and all input from the forum members.
For context, I already have double rifles in .450 NE and .500 NE, as well as a double in 9.3x74R and one in .375 Flanged mag, plus a bolt rifle in .375 H&H, so I thought that the Rigby might be less redundant than the Lott, given that maybe the Rigby might have some greater versatility.........
Are there any flies on the big Rigby? Is it an accurate cartridge? Will it truly offer greater practical versatility than the Lott, i.e. DG close up, PLUS larger plains game at more extended range..... (Think scopes vs iron sights). Seems to me the Lott is a splendid cartridge, but is it really just more of a close range affair and essentially redundant given the .450 NE? Or stated another way, will the Rigby be accurate enough to reach out to longer ranges, or is it just less powerful than the Lott and still be limited to under 100 yards because of accuracy concerns?
For some additional context, I have had opportunity to fire a Sako Brown Bear with Hornady DGX ammo, and I was unimpressed with the very lacklustre accuracy at 50 metres. Every Sako I ever met was a tack driver, so maybe it was the ammo? It doesn't matter if one shoots 4" groups at 50 metres with a DG rifle at big DG, but that level of accuracy means that 100 yards is stretching things where one might need better performance and shooting further out is really off the table..... Should I be worried about the Rigby being able to perform accurately at say 200 or even 250 yards on something like a zebra or eland? Assume the use of carefully assembled reloads and possibly a Barnes TSX, or maybe a Woodleigh in lighter weights.......
Edited by Postman (14/07/16 05:30 AM)
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Wayne59
.400 member
Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
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In a word No. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 416 Rigby.
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Rockdoc
.400 member
Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
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I have a very nice double in 500/450 3 1/4" Magnum with an extra set of 375Flanged Mag barrels. I had a very nice double 500. I also have a couple of 375 belted mag magazine rifles.
I would really like a 404J, so I see a 416Rigby as perfectly sensible  Particularly a Heym!
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40651
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Quote:
I am in the process of ordering a new Heym Express bolt rifle and am waffling between the two cartridges mentioned. I am leaning toward the .416 Rigby but would like any and all input from the forum members.
For context, I already have double rifles in .450 NE and .500 NE, as well as a double in 9.3x74R and one in .375 Flanged mag, plus a bolt rifle in .375 H&H, so I thought that the Rigby might be less redundant than the Lott, given that maybe the Rigby might have some greater versatility.........
Wow, an impressive battery you have and great choices of cartridges.
A 9.3x74R or a .375 Flanged? Why not both! If I had both, the .375 Flanged would be a classic side by side, but also scoped. The 9.3 would be a classic Euro under and over and also scoped. Hopefully both would perform well enough with open sights for close shooting when required.
A .450 NE and an .500 NE double rifle. Again wow! Really covers the bases!
My thoughts on your question(s) and also additions to your battery.
I too have a bolt action .375 H&H Mag, a bolt action .404 Jeffery, a double rifle in 9.3x74R, sadly no .376 Flanged double yet, if I did it might become the rifle I choose for almost everything from then on. A double in .450 NE. Some others for fun.
If I wanted bigger than .500 NE, I would go for a .577 NE double rifle.
While not welded to the thought process, I have always thought, my bolt actions would stop at below the .450 calibre size. .450 and larger bores, double rifles are better. Because they are generally close in, end of the muzzle shooting scenarios and not long range affairs. Where two quick shots might be better than three or four slower shots.
My personal preference for your addition would be the .416 Rigby. A .458 Lott would make an excellent elephant culling rifle, but no one outside of PH and Parks ranks gets in on that nowadays, at least if they can't keep their mouths shut. A .416 does an excellent job at that sort of activity as well anyway.
Longer range shots? Few bother to scope a .458, but most scope a .416 Rigby. Tells you something. I don't see why a good rifle can't make one hole or cloverleaf three shot groups if the shooter can do it. My .375 bolt action and 9.3 double can shoot one hole 3 shot groups at 100 metres.
If the shooter can handle the recoil without small flinches, I think a .416 can make a fine occasional plains game rifle and see no reason he could not shoot it at antelope or other medium game out to 300 metres plus with the right ammo. The recoil is the factor, and often determines ones shooting ability when fine shooting is required. No one likes to get punched in the shoulder. So the reason most of us would choose a .300 say for the longer ranger plains game rifle. Another reason the .375 is often the "one rifle safari battery" choice. Blend of hitting power, accuracy and somewhat lesser recoil.
Do you need a .416? Or a .458 Lott? Your battery certainly covers every need.
Do you want a .416?
Well I have a .404. It has seen little use so far. I still would acquire a 416 Rigby if I had the chance. 
***
The Heym Express rifles are also very nice. Saw more than a few being made on my two visits to the Heym gun factory. Very nice craftmanship, and a lot of effort goes into their making.
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John aka NitroX
 ...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
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Wayne59
.400 member
Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
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I have been working on cast bullet loads for my .416. Fired three shots into a clover leaf at fifty yards about 1 1/2" high so I took it to the farm last Saturday and tried it in a gong at two hundred yards (at least I am told it is 200 yds) and nailed it three times in a row. Just for kicks I slipped the four power scope off the gun and flipped up the three hundred yard leaf and fired some jacked 300gr rounds at the 400yd steel buffalo. scored a hit with every shot. I was impressed and so were my friends. None of my friends would try it. I am not sure if they were afraid of the recoil or of missing the target and looking bad. I will admit I was having one hell of a day.
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Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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Wow!!! That is very impressive! I have been playing with cast bullets in doubles, etc, but have had very limited successes until a couple of weeks ago using a Lyman 457122 mould throwing 330 grain HP wheel weight cast and a NFB Varget load / foam filler (found in Graeme Wrights's famous book) that produced really excellent accuracy and surprisingly good regulation in a .450NE.
Would you be willing to share your load data with the usual caveats around "use at ones own risk"?
Back to the OP question, I would like to thank all that have shared their views on the .416 Rigby!!!!!
I am now firmly convinced that the .416 is the way to go for this Heym Express bolt rifle, and have firmed up my order earlier today!!!!!!!!! Recoil isn't much of an issue at least at the levels the Rigby generates with 400 grain bullets, so I don't imagine I'll experience recoil induced impairments for longer shots particularly using 300 grain TSX bullets that I'd likely use for plains game. I find that the .500NE is the extreme outside edge of my recoil tolerance.
The Rigby seems to have a pretty good selection of bullets in various weights and constructs which leads me to believe that I'm not misguided in my thinking that this rifle can be a do all rifle similar to but leaning toward the heavier uses as compared to the wonderful .375s.
The Lott feels like it would be much more range limited, so the Lott would be redundant given my possession of a .450NE.
So now for the second hardest* part of all: Waiting for my shiny new rifle!!!!!!!
*. The hardest part will be to pay for the darn thing, but what the hell,you only live once!!!!!
Edited by Postman (15/07/16 02:03 PM)
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Wayne59
.400 member
Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
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Here are the loads you asked for. Cast bullet load Brass is Hornady. Primers SB. Bullet is 350gr cast from a Rcbs mold sized and lubed and (Daryl will like this) 44gr 5744 powder with 1gr Kpoc on top. The trick is getting good cast bullets. this is a mild load (especially for a CZ 550 safari) and is tons of fun to plink with. For a jacket load (and I beleave this one came straight out of the manual) Federal brass Federal large rifle primer IMR 4350 powder 93grs topped off with a 350gr Speer Hot Point. These are not hunting loads for large game just fun loads for shooting (or possibly deer hunting).
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Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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Hi Wayne59:
Thank you very much!!!! I will stash this recipe with my load info and try it out!!!!
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NitroX
.700 member
Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40651
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
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Quote:
Recoil isn't much of an issue at least at the levels the Rigby generates with 400 grain bullets, so I don't imagine I'll experience recoil induced impairments for longer shots particularly using 300 grain TSX bullets that I'd likely use for plains game. I find that the .500NE is the extreme outside edge of my recoil tolerance.
*. The hardest part will be to pay for the darn thing, but what the hell,you only live once!!!!!
Interesting during the BGRC Nationals this year, I shot my 9.3x74R double, my .375 M98, my .404 Mauser M03, and my .450 Jeffery double.
The hardest felt recoil came from the .404 with 400 gr full power loads. I don't load to the competition specs (if they are lesser), just use my normal full power loads, so far anyway.
The .450 DR is quite heavy so does reduce the felt recoil.
A .400 with 300 gr projectiles should be milder as you say.
I think recoil does affect our accuracy no matter what. How much easier it is to shoot a .30 than a .400 even if the rifles have similar accuracy.
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John aka NitroX
...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"
Edited by NitroX (16/07/16 03:56 AM)
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Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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I suppose I'll find out soon enough about the recoil. I've only ever fired one .416 Rigby, an iron sighted Sako Brown Bear using the Hornady factory 400 grain DGX bullets 20 shots in a row, so that is my point of reference. I found it stiff but tolerable.
I do feel quite a difference moving from the .450NE to the .500NE with full power loads 500 and 570 grain respectively. About 10 shots in with the .500 and I've quite had more than enough of a good thing and need to stop for the day. The .450 isn't quite as brisk, but it still rings my bell and after maybe 20 rounds I've had quite enough of that toy for the day as well. I love shooting the .450 using 1 grain less of H4350 than my full power loads with Hornady FTX 325 grain bullets. Regulates well and is very pleasant to shoot from a recoil perspective.
Interesting point of note is the weight of the various rifles. Both the .450 and .500 were up over 10 pounds, but fit very well. I subscribe to the belief that stock design and fit becomes very critical as recoil goes up.
Some time ago I had a Blaser S2 in .470 and I found the recoil brutal to the point of coming to despise the rifle. After half a dozen shots, I got a blinding headache and a bruised cheek. I moved to a .470 Merkel and found it better, but still hard to shoot. At least the Merkel didn't turn my second finger into severely tenderized veal cutlets like the Blaser did. The difference between the two being that the Blaser had a very pronounced pistol grip with the back of the trigger guard that sits almost vertical where the shooting hand makes harsh contact under recoil. Both bit my cheek, but the Merkel less so. The Merkel was replaced by my first Heym with some trepidation given that the Heym was a .500. Headaches are now a thing of the past, but the Heym taught me that one shouldn't let one's tongue stray between upper and lower teeth if one doesn't want to taste blood  Focus on shooting, and don't be sloppy about it
I still have my Merkel in 9.3x74R and I love shooting it!!!! No pain or unpleasant experiences at all with it. It loves Barnes 250 grain TSX and regulates beautifully with them. I know the stock is maybe a little short for me but it fits well enough given the recoil levels generated.
One wonderful little trick I've also learned is to revere the use of sissy pads! A good PAST recoil reducing pad works wonders. I cut off the flesh coloured bra strap crap that it comes with ( and never seems to fit properly) and I had my elderly mom sew the pad to the inside of a fishing vest!!!! Presto!!!!! Tender shoulders are a thing if the past!!!!!!
You guys that shoot big bores in competition, where you might burn through a prodigious amount of ammo in an afternoon certainly have my respect!!!!! Recoil is a tough thing to come to terms with and I'm not confident I'd fare well with repeated and incessant pounding!!!
Edited by Postman (16/07/16 04:51 AM)
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Wayne59
.400 member
Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
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You are correct about the past shield. I wear mine religiously. Dose wonders for your shoulder. I have a 450x400 Manton double and it kicks like a mule. Far worst than the 416. I think it has to do with the fit. I have quite a few shotguns in 10ga and 8ga and there not to easy on the shoulder. The pad makes them much more tolerable. The straps do suck.
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Waidmannsheil
.416 member
Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2521
Loc: Melbourne Australia
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Postman, what is wrong with wearing some bra straps, some nice panties as well. Seriously though, I have several shooting vests and I have had the local tailor sew in pockets where I have fitted Browning reactor gel pads, works fantastic. I can belt out 50 full power rounds of 338Win Mag in a very short space of time with out any bruising or cuts any where. At the end of a session you wouldn't even know that you have been shooting. It really works well.
Waidmannsheil.
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There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.
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202T
.224 member
Reged: 05/08/15
Posts: 19
Loc: Northern Territory, Australia
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I own a 416 rigby in a Ruger Safari magnum and until recently I had a 458Lott barrel for my Sauer 202T. Still have the 202T but sold the barrel.
The recoil on the 416 Rigby with 400gr RNSN was mild compared to the 500gr Lott IMO. The Rigby more of a push whereas I found the Lott to be sharp and brutal. I've found the 404jeffery to be somewhere in between.
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Mans got to know his limitations
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Rule303
.450 member
Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 5255
Loc: Woodford Qld
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Quote:
In a word No. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 416 Rigby.
This^.
I have a 416Rigby in a CZ550. Will shoot 5 into an inch or less if I do my part with Woodleigh 400grn RN and Hydros-same point of impact. Flat enough to use to 300yards if you wish or load the lighter 340 grain bullets for longer range.
You can down load or upload the Rigby. A vary versatile cartridge.
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27701
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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Had to wear a PAST shoulder pad for a few years, recovering from torn cartilage for and aft in my right shoulder- WHEN SHOOTING ANY CF OVER .243 OR MY .69 ML.
Now, after building up the muscle a bit, I am able to shoot the .69 without the pad, but I wear it for both the 9.3 and .375 - just to prevent further damage - yeah - call me a wimp, but probably not to my face.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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Ripp
.577 member
Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
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Quote:
Quote:
In a word No. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 416 Rigby.
This^.
I have a 416Rigby in a CZ550. Will shoot 5 into an inch or less if I do my part with Woodleigh 400grn RN and Hydros-same point of impact. Flat enough to use to 300yards if you wish or load the lighter 340 grain bullets for longer range.
You can down load or upload the Rigby. A vary versatile cartridge.
My sentiments as well..I use the 416 Rem..similar ballistics, higher pressure though it has never been an issue for me..very versatile..my last hunt over there I shot anywhere from a tuskless at 16 yards to a bush buck at 265...and many in between...think you would be very happy with the Rigby..
Ripp
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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..
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Yochanan
.375 member
Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
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I would go for the 416 Rigby - a very sensible choice. If you are lookning for a "stopper" then I would choose 500 Jeffery or 450 Rigby rimless.
Crucial for all guns is to have stock made to your measurements - fits like a glove.
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© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.
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Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Postman, what is wrong with wearing some bra straps, some nice panties as well. Seriously though, I have several shooting vests and I have had the local tailor sew in pockets where I have fitted Browning reactor gel pads, works fantastic. I can belt out 50 full power rounds of 338Win Mag in a very short space of time with out any bruising or cuts any where. At the end of a session you wouldn't even know that you have been shooting. It really works well.
Waidmannsheil.
The largest problem with wearing some bra straps is that they hurt my vagina!!!
Yes, wearing recoil reducing pads have enabled me to shoot a great deal more than I otherwise would have. Osteo arthritis is slowly creeping in to both shoulders and hands and I find that these tricks help a great deal. Had I not had the benefit of my sissy pad, that 1st.470 Blaser would have been hurled into the first handy toxic waste pond I ran into and that would have been the end for me shooting the big stuff, before I even really got started.
When I was overseas to shoot my first buffalo, I wore my fishing vest with funky sewn in pad over my t-shirt. It was maybe a bit warmer than just wearing a t-shirt, but I found it quite comfortable with lots of pockets for extraneous "stuff" one might wish to carry afield.
Edited by Postman (16/07/16 09:21 PM)
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Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
In a word No. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 416 Rigby.
This^.
I have a 416Rigby in a CZ550. Will shoot 5 into an inch or less if I do my part with Woodleigh 400grn RN and Hydros-same point of impact. Flat enough to use to 300yards if you wish or load the lighter 340 grain bullets for longer range.
You can down load or upload the Rigby. A vary versatile cartridge.
I suspected that this would be the case........ Proper ammo / hand loads should perform well. The more posts / responses I read, the further convinced I become that the .416 Rigby is the better choice from a hunter's perspective. Makes me think I should have probably been looking at acquiring the Rigby even long before I got to playing with the big doubles.
We have a well stocked importer of Woodleighs in our Province, so Woodleighs will likely be the first bullets I will fling down range once the rifle arrives!!
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27701
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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If I only wanted Rigby-like performance, I think I'd be inclined to go the .416Remington direction, perhaps in a custom rifle, but totally understand the desire for a top-end euro-rifle, rather than run-of-the-mil US made guns.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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I think that the .416 Remington is a well designed cartridge, with loads of power in a smaller package, but at this stage I'd prefer a Euro gun. I wanted something highly functional and of beauty made to fit me with true artwork fit and finish, but even assuming all things being equal on the firearms front, given the choice I'd still go for the Rigby before the Remington cartridge from a nostalgia perspective as well as the alleged lower pressure envelope within which the Rigby is designed to operate. The Rigby requires a massive action, but I don't see that as a defect. An extra 1/2" of action length shouldn't make a whit of difference to OAL length and a bit of extra weight will probably be a feature to help tame recoil. Short stroking a long action should not be an issue if one practices sufficiently.
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Rockdoc
.400 member
Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1213
Loc: NSW, Australia
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I've not noticed the Magnum Mauser to be a massive action and in the field have not noticed it.
Look forward to seeing your rifle.
Cheers Chris
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Claydog
.400 member
Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 1154
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
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I hunted with a guy who used a Heym Express in .416 Rigby in Oz. He took 6 Bull Buffalo with it and I must say it was one of the nicest modern rifles I have seen. It was also very nicely balanced and comfortable to shoot. It looked to be designed for a guy to carry all day. Nice lines and good weight. When I am in the market for a new hunting rifle that is the one. Would also be more than happy to have one in 458 Lott. I don't know alot about velocity and energy figures but I appreciate the way those 458s hit. From my perspective there is a noticeable step up to the mid 40s.
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Wayne59
.400 member
Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
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I happen to be fortunate in the fact that I am an average size person and most company's build guns for the average size person. My CZ fits me pretty well and the only complaint I have is that it is a little thick in the wrist area of the stock. I guess CZ thought it might break under recoil. From what I have been reading on the net a lot of reloaders are loading cartridges well above the pressure limits in these rifles (I am not suggesting anybody do this). A friend of mine has an old Bruno stock that he says will fit my gun so I may check into it and if it fits and looks decent I will swap them out instead of having mine whittled down. Thar way I can keep the original stock.
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Postman
.375 member
Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 847
Loc: Canada
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To be average size is a feature, whether one is buying clothes, shoes, cars, airline seats, or firearms. I unfortunately am not one so blessed. I stand 6' 3" or 187.5 cm. I have 37" sleeves and a rather long neck. Really long necks belong on tall skinny runway models with large breasts. I am ugly enough to stop a clock and I'm just not going to even talk about the breast thing
All this to say that after far too many decades of discomfort and always struggling to fit a square peg in a round hole, I have discovered the wonders of proper fit when it comes to firearms but have also run head long into the hard reality that it costs a great deal more to have things built to fit no matter which company's firearm is the object of one's affection.
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