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DonZ
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Follow Up on my hand loading issues
      #284622 - 28/06/16 12:54 PM

In another thread, I spoke about an issue I had with obvious signs of overpressure, while using a load I thought would be a safe starting load.

It was recommended in that thread that I contact the powder manufacturer. Before doing that, I wanted to research every step of what I did in order to make sure I was doing everything right first. For example, I sent my scale in for re-calibration to make sure there wasn't a measurement error, I went over my notes, etc.

One thing I noticed was that I should be concerned about headspace.

I came across this article:

http://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs/145-dealing-with-headspace

The symptoms described for excessive headspace match what happened to me. I know that the headspace in the rifle is correct, based on success with factory RWS rounds.

Of course this has led me to search for some headspace go/no go gauges, as well as a case gauge. I haven't found a source, but if anyone knows of one, let me know. I have reached out to several vendors about having a set custom made (certainly, chamber bores are available) and I will let you know what I learn. I do have some phone calls to make tomorrow.

In the interim, I did some "testing" with my rifle. Lacking a smoke pot to lightly mark a round, I searched my tool cabinet and found some prussian blue. Here is what I learned:

Putting a very light coat of prussian blue on a factory RWS 160 gr RNSP round, I carefully chambered it and noted that the prussian blue was marked about in the center of the shoulder. Call it half way along the "angle" of the shoulder.

I repeated the "experiment" with a dummy round that I made with my set up. No primer, fire formed RWS brass, using a neck sizing C4D die and a 160 gr Woodleigh PP bullet set with an overall length of 3.01". This was slightly longer than the RWS factory round, but needed to feed the spitzer bullet from the magazine.

In this case, the prussian blue was marked at the very end (widest part) of the shoulder.

My conclusion is that the round is seating deeper into the chamber, increasing headspace. If my conclusion is correct, this would cause the overpressure I experienced.

Does anyone with more experience than I have opinions on this?

Can anyone recommend a good method to set my neck sizing die? All the examples I've read speak to full length dies. I have a FL die, but was hoping to use the neck sizing die in order to extend the life of my brass.

The best method I can think to set the die is to continue to "fiddle" with height using the prussian blue until I can move the "touch point" up the neck of the brass. If anyone can recommend something "less messy" than prussian blue (black sharpie was completely ineffective), I'm willing to listen.

Thank you for any thoughts. I'm learning a LOT here, and I really appreciate it. Thirty years ago, when my grandfather passed this rifle to me, I lost any hope of finding ammo for it. Now, I've found live rounds, brass, several types of bullets, dies, and more information than I thought was available. You guys are a great help.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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Jim_C
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DonZ]
      #284625 - 28/06/16 02:06 PM

You can smoke the case shoulders by passing them through the tip of the flame of a butane lighter, or a candle flame. A very light coat of oil on the brass (wipe it with an oily patch, then dry it with a dry patch) will help to gather the soot from the flame.

I'd work on backing the die off in 1/4 turn increments until the contact area is close to that of the factory round. Then you can fiddle with getting it exactly right--and lock the die lock ring so it doesn't move!

Edited by Jim_C (28/06/16 02:07 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: Jim_C]
      #284663 - 29/06/16 01:16 AM

Smoking the cases is a good way to set the die, to size "just" short of the shoulder. You can do this with FL dies as well - setting them up so you don't touch the shoulder.
With new brass or fired brass, you should actually be able to see (scrapes or slight shrinkage from sizing) and/or measure the sized portion - that is how I have set my dies for "partial FL sizing" since 1969. It is also how I set my neck sizing dies.
Best is to start with about 3/16" between the bottom of the die and the top of the shell holder. Size a case and see how far down the neck, the sizing operation has been accomplished. From then on, screw the die down slightly, re-sizing, repeating until you get your die at the correct height - then lock the ring.

Before locking the ring, I place a washer on the shell holder then press that against the bottom of the die. This pushes it up slightly, removing the slop of the threads and making sure the die is properly aligned with the ram of the press.
Check to ensure you are sizing the amount of the neck you desire.

I set up all my FL dies this way, neck or FL dies. I have NEVER had an instance where I HAD to push the shoulder back to get the case to chamber - except of course, when making wildcat brass, or when using brass from a different rifle with different chamber specs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DonZ
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DarylS]
      #284904 - 06/07/16 12:42 PM

Thanks for all your help. I was playing with my dies tonight, and I want to be sure I understand.

I used the "butane smudge" method, and continued to screw the die in until I "scraped off" the entire neck. Is that correct?

As a "test", I found one round I did previously with no primer (I needed a dummy round to check COL), smudged that one, and ran that through the die. It's difficult to see (perhaps only a few thousandths), but it looks like there is still "neck" left un-smudged.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, I pushed the shoulder back too far. The round chambered, but I had too much headspace. Not enough to split the case, but certainly enough for over-pressure.

Am I correct in my hypothesis?

With this in mind, I need to full length form the brass I'd already sized too deeply, correct?

Perhaps I should just quit neck sizing, and only full length size?

Final question: I have a few of my previously loaded rounds. I pulled the projectile, emptied the powder, but they are still primed.

Choice: Full Length size with no de-capping pin, or simply fire off the primers at the range and start over.

I have so many questions!

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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deeangeo
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DonZ]
      #284906 - 06/07/16 04:45 PM

Full length resize, but just back off the de-cap pin ensuring it's concentric in the die.
i.e. leave the rod slightly loose while driving the case into the die, then, as you withdraw the case from the die, as soon as you feel the expander ball enter the case neck, keeping the pressure on the ram, tighten the locknut for the decap rod. Decap rod & die should now be concentric.


If you have a headspace guage it's a very helpful tool. I use a Hornady for my MSch 1903 rounds.
They don't show a cartridge specific collar for 6.5x54, so I use the C375 collar (6.5x55).

I have brand new Norma brass, so using the guage it measures a pretty consistent 1.699" mid shoulder to case base (head) No primer in situ.
From my rifle, the fired case headspace dimension using the Hornady guage, is 1.705"
This measurement is taken after removal of the fired primer.
I use a Lee Universal decap die before taking measurements.

This I regard as my 'fired case headspace dimension' so I set my F/L resizing die to resize to that dimension -1.705".
In doing this, I also set the decap rod ensuring it 'dead centre' so that when resizing, I don't have much case neck/body run out & usually achieve +/- .0005"

Personally, I firmly believe working to fired case headspace dimension is easily close enough and F/L resizing to that dimension will extend case life almost as far as neck sizing.
Add further extension to case life if you anneal.

As a further note, to help take up 'slop' in the coarse thread of the die, I use a rubber 'O' ring under the lock nut of the die. This does two things, it allows the die to flex up/down tilt very microslightly, keeping the cartridge true as it's being sized, while also allowing 'pinching' the die up or down to achieve exact headspace dimension. Works a treat!

(It is possible to measure the rifle headspace without go/no-go guages, but it's rather fiddly, so you need patience, but it works.
Rifle headspace is usually a little greater than fired case headspace, perhaps +.003" +/-, so, taking a new brass case, insert into the chamber and pack with thin sheaves of cut tinfoil or rizzla paper, one at a time.

Test the bolt closure on the case until the bolt does not lock down smoothly. Measure the case with foil in place & that's the no-go dimension.

Repeat this process until you reach a point where the bolt closes smoothly and locks down easily and measure. That dimension will be pretty damn close to an accurate rifle headspace measurement).

Edited by deeangeo (08/07/16 04:24 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DarylS]
      #284913 - 07/07/16 01:18 AM

Quote:


Best is to start with about 3/16" between the bottom of the die and the top of the shell holder. Size a case and see how far down the neck, the sizing operation has been accomplished. From then on, screw the die down slightly, re-sizing, repeating until you get your die at the correct height - then lock the ring.



If you set your dies as above, you cannot inadvertently adjust your dies incorrectly and oversize, ie: push the shoulder back.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DonZ
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DarylS]
      #284923 - 07/07/16 10:24 AM

Thank you. I guess the (inexperienced) question is when you say "repeating until you get your die to the correct height..." how do I know I'm at the correct height?

I have a case gauge on order. With a little luck, that will help.

--------------------
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deeangeo
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DonZ]
      #284928 - 07/07/16 03:21 PM

When measuring fired cases using a headspace guage, you should do this with the used primer removed.
As mentioned,a Lee universal decapping die is ideal for this. No lube is necessary to use the die.

Measure ten or twelve cases and take the average dimension, then set your F/L sizing die to resize to that dimension.
Your case shoulder 'bump' should not exceed .002"...it's unlikely to anyway if you're measuring & setting your die this way.

Daryls method works just fine, it's a trial & error method not involving additional tools & guages.
In any event, full length resizing only minimally working the brass, will certainly ensure easy chamering and extended case life. In my view way better than neck sizing also more consistent.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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DonZ
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: deeangeo]
      #285390 - 17/07/16 12:54 PM

I did want to follow up on this one as well. Last week, I sent an email to VV to ask their opinion, but as of yet have not heard back.

I went down to 35 grains and was still massively over-pressured. Headspace seems tight without being too tight (.004 inches or so), and was certainly not excessive. I have a case gauge on the way, and will go to full length sizing instead of neck sizing. I have fired off all of my primed cases, so am at zero. I have about 40 once fired RWS cases, and another 40 once fired Norma cases. The rest of my collection is RWS and Norma virgin cases, so they would need full length sizing to start.

At this point, the only thing to which I can place the blame is bad powder. I can think of no other change I could make (to include having the manufacturer recalibrate my balance scale). I was using Woodleigh PP bullets, but they were loaded to a COL of 3.009, which is well within max COL specs, and the meplat of that bullet would keep it farther from the lands than a simple round nose bullet. At this point, I will try and source another powder. Hogden and IMR are back on the shelves, so that is easy. I've also seen some Norma powder, and they have recommended loads on their site.

I'm hoping I haven't damaged the rifle by this. Certainly the cases did not rupture (though the bolt was extremely difficult to open) so I probably have not exceeded the proof load originally performed in late 1939.

Thanks everyone for all your advice, recommendations and patience. The only way I can use this to continue to be a threat to Odocoileus virginianus is to learn to reload, so I am trying to blunder my way through.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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DarylS
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DonZ]
      #285393 - 17/07/16 02:42 PM

Different bullets have different lengths to the full diameter, ie: ogive of the bullet.

You will know you are sizing at the correct height when you size the neck almost to the base, at the shoulder, but do NO touch the shoulder. That is a good place to stop, so you do NOT push the shoulder back.

Always start at the starting load in a manual. Not really knowing what you are doing with the sizing and starting at a max. load is a quick way to more trouble than you need at this point.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TexasJohn
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DarylS]
      #285402 - 17/07/16 09:58 PM

M-S rifles while having a reputation as precision pieces of equipment, have the opposite reputation relative to bore uniformity. If you read many posts about loading for these rifles, the issue of bore size will arise. To find out if your rifle might have a tighter than normal bore, you might slug it and find out exactly what the measurements are. This may be a part of your problem.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

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DonZ
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: TexasJohn]
      #285403 - 17/07/16 10:28 PM

Thanks guys.

To reiterate: Neck sizing was done to the shoulder. Starting load was at the minimum recommended by VV, and then reduced even farther (by two grains). VV originally recommended 37 gr starting, 40 max. I started at 37, overpressure, recalibrated everything, and reduced to 35. Overpressure and only 1100 fps.

Understood on the bore uniformity issues, stock RWS rounds had no problems. I will go back and hit both those rounds and the Woodleigh bullets with a caliper. I was able to fire rounds provided by another custom vendor who provided Hornady RN bullets, and they fired perfectly (around 1.5 MOA from sitting).

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DarylS
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DonZ]
      #285408 - 18/07/16 01:30 AM

Quote:

The rest of my collection is RWS and Norma virgin cases, so they would need full length sizing to start.




With brand new brass, I chamber one to make sure they will fit my chamber - then I only true up the neck (running them ove rthe expander buttom of the die. Some ctg. necks sometimes gets a bit crushed or bent (not round) on one side or the other from banging against others.

They will already be FL sized. You should not have to do this.

I think you might have a long chamber and/or you are pushing the shoulders back when sizing. overly sized brass will appear to be producing excessive pressure.

1,100fps ????????????????????????????????????

You should inside and outside chamfer the case necks before loading - again, they should not need sizing before fitting a normal chamber.

Since factory ammo fits, new brass should as well.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Tom_H
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DarylS]
      #286446 - 14/08/16 02:05 PM

Hello Don.
Sorry that I hadn't noticed this post sooner.

I don't believe that you have a headspace problem.
You have a neck expansion problem.

Take a fired case and measure the dimension of the neck.
Compare this to the same dimension (with the same brass) on a loaded case.
You should have at least a few thousanths difference between the two, the loaded case being of smaller dimensions that the fired.

If the brass has no place to go when firing, you get instant overpressure.

I have a Dutch 6.5x53r with a .268 groove. The largest bullet that can safely be loaded into the cartridge is a .264 because a larger bullet would give no room for expansion.
Apparently, the long bullets were supposed to "set up" when fired and the accuracy was fairly good.

Check those numbers before you go any further. Problem could be solved.

Good luck.

Tom

--------------------
Carbonation without fermentation is tyranny

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DonZ
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: Tom_H]
      #286482 - 15/08/16 01:17 PM

Tom,

Thanks. I don't have my notebook with me, but I think I checked for a taper crimp. I want to say that I checked for .002 of crimp. I will go back again to see.

My case gauge came in, and I've measured some unfired RWS rounds for a "starting point". I will measure the crimp on those before I fire them. I'm going to start again with new powder.

My only thought right now, and the only thing that's making any sense to me, is that the powder I have is too slow. I think that perhaps the pressure builds too high before the round starts moving. My only other thought is something I read along the way. Powder that has begun to break down from moisture or heat may also do the same. Again, I don't have the book with me, so I can't quote it, but I remember something along those lines.

I also wonder about the bullets themselves. The PP rounds are a bit long, so there may be seated a bit deep, although the COL is correct. But I don't think that's it.

I really do not think it's headspace, because the stock rounds fire well.

In any case, powder is the only thing I haven't changed yet, so thats the one variable left. I can't find the Hogden that I want, but I can get the IMR. Other choice is Norma 204. We'll see.

--------------------
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Tom_H
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DonZ]
      #286515 - 16/08/16 08:37 AM

Hey Don.
Forget about the taper crimp. Those bullets are 160gr and the rifle is a bolt action.
Take variables out of the equation.
Take a fired case and insert a bullet into it. If it even seems to be a friction fit the neck is too tight.

Also, take a loaded round and measure the neck. Compare this to the same measurement on a fired round. Should give you a rough number of how much expansion you have to work with

Also check your case length as too long is bad for the same reason. Forcing the mouth of the case into the throat of the chamber causes the same problem.

As far as the case gauge is concerned, a fired case should be your starting point. It will let you know what headspace you are dealing with and you can size .001-.002 below that.

What bullets (manufacturer and diameter) are you using? I'm sure that I missed it but I didn't find that in the reading.

If you want to look at another project with some similar experiences check out this site:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/classics/mannlicher-1895/classic_mannlicher.html

Tom

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: Tom_H]
      #286518 - 16/08/16 10:14 AM

Not to say that tight necks might be a problem, but with factory brass, a factory chamber, I've never heard of overly thick case necks. Most all factory chambers are generally well oversize in the neck diameter as to alloy any make of case use.

However:


As Tom noted, try a bullet base into a fired case. If it will not slide in easily - there are 3 possible problems I can think of:

1/. chamber neck diameter undersized
2/. case neck thickness too much
3/. case length is excessive, crimping the case into the bullet upon chambering. You may or may not feel this.

So: You have a list of things to check - from headspace to neck thickness to over-sizing the case shoulders - ie: pushing them back- too far - (I prefer not to move them as all) - which is LOADER caused excessive headspace, to tight necks or overly long brass. All of these, individually or when they stack up can absolutely cause really excessive pressure and excessive pressure signs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DonZ
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DarylS]
      #286531 - 16/08/16 11:17 PM

Thanks. I'm slowly learning.

To review:

Bullet is 160 g Woodleigh Protected Point.

Brass was once-fired Norma and RWS.

Powder was VV N160.

Primer was Federal Match

Cases were neck sized, not full length sized. I did think perhaps I pushed the neck back too far, which is why I bought the case gauge. On my second load (reduced even farther, and with the RWS brass), I "smoke checked" the brass, and believe it was OK. Now I have the case gauge in hand, and can actually measure.

I used the taper crimp because with the spire point of the PP, I wanted to ensure that I would not push the bullet into the case when feeding. To be clear: when testing the load, I hand fed the round into the chamber, so I'm sure I did not push the bullet in during test firing.

Cases were trimmed to length before I sized them, and re-measured after.

I will check neck diameter once I have new once fired cases.

I'm away from home right now, but will probably play more this weekend.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...

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ducmarc
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: DonZ]
      #286549 - 17/08/16 10:55 AM

I think in this situation I would do a chamber cast and slug the barrel like suggested.brownells and midway both sell chamber casting alloy.the you know exactly what size you chamber and bore size is. Like said before u may have a tight bore.u may have this or that with out a go or nogo or field gage you throwing darts.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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ducmarc
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: ducmarc]
      #286550 - 17/08/16 11:05 AM

Fyi Forster lists 6.5x54 MS headspace gages

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Postman
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Re: Follow Up on my hand loading issues [Re: ducmarc]
      #286553 - 17/08/16 11:27 AM

This is an interesting conundrum and similar to one which I experienced a couple of years ago with a Blaser R8 in 9.3 X 62..... The issue I experienced was that reloaded rounds simply would NOT chamber at all. A block of wood would not pound the bolt closed with any reload no matter what I tried, e.g., varied the seating depth, trimming cases to "trim to" specs, different bullet olive shapes, F/L resizing, checked case neck thickness, and even tried 3 different new die sets, all to no avail. I resigned myself to using factory loads only in this rifle until I rid myself of the rifle. When I was actually able to get a reloaded round to chamber, I experienced pressure signs

In .30-06, I had one Springfield M1A rifle with chambering issues and I resolved it by using a small base F/L resizing die to resolve the issue, which unfortunately I could not get in 9.3 X 62.....


In my mind, the first thing one should do is to F/L resize and trim, chamfer and deburr the cases, and watch one's seating depth. Seating depth is a funny thing. Jam the bullet into the lands, and pressures can spike. Seat too deeply and one can "crowd" the powder and raise pressure. The good case prep "should" solve most issues of this nature, but as I opened with, sometimes the resolution is elusive. An item to watch for is compressed powder loads. I've seen high pressure issues in a .223 when using compressed loads of Varget, even though the loads were well under "max" load.

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