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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project
      #284311 - 22/06/16 02:36 PM

I posted this elsewhere and while I am not in the class of most professional gunmakers who post here I am very pleased with how it has turned out.
---------------------------------------------------------
It seems like there may well be a new project in the offing. There has been a trade agreed where I send a Mk 1 Long Lee Enfield action to a feller and he will send me a 1916 Kar 98 small ring Mauser action.


Being a small ring it can be made into a nice light hill rifle and I have decided that a 7x57 in a blind mag stock designed for open sights will be the way to go with this one even though I will possibly look at a QD scope as well. Up to this point I have sort of adapted my stock pattern to lower the comb at the nose to get down for the aperture sights but with the heel at the same drop it means a slightly unconventional head position on the stock.
It may well be a few weeks before the action arrives but I thought to get the stock design sorted now and thought that I might do a trial one first to get the blind mag area understood before I attack a nice piece of walnut.
To that end I drew out the plan and cut both a pattern and a framed pattern then a trial stock from a piece of Rimu and thought that it may be of interest to look at how I draw out the pattern.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (22/06/16 02:39 PM)


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284312 - 22/06/16 02:38 PM

I used a piece of thin board that is 8 1/2 in deep for the framed pattern so I could get all my measurements noted down.

I started by marking a line the width of my long steel rule (1 1/8) parallel to the top so that when I cut out the interior there is enough strength left outside it to hold it all together. This line is the stock top line and all measurements noted are down from this line. Point A is marked in along this top line and to find point A --- I made my stock to have a 13 3/8 L O P so point A is 14 1/2 in from the butt end of the board. Adjust as necessary for your own desired L O P. I will deal with the forestock first.



From point A, square a line down to the bottom of the board as this is the face of the trigger and where all the measurements go from. From point A mark down the line 2 3/16 as this is the depth of the stock at this point. Measure toward the forend tip 15 1/2 inches and square a line down with a point marked in an 1 1/4 down from the top line. You can now draw a line from this point back through the first point measured down from point A to give you the forestock length and shape.


For the butt end I start with the grip curve so to get there I measure back toward the butt from point A 3 7/8 then square down from there. Measure down that line 4 1/4 and mark the spot. ( call it B) Next comes the grip curve and this calls for a bit of try and adjust. Set you calipers for 4 1/8 as this is the radius for the curve and it requires the curve to go through the point B and back into the line we drew back from the forend tip to intersect where the center of of the trigger curve will be directly down from point A. Then you can use your square and mark in the grip cap line back toward the heel. My intersection point is 14 7/8 back along the top line from point A. Mark 1 3/4 for the grip cap length.
Next comes the comb nose and I mark 4 1/2 back from point A and go down 3/4. This is where the comb nose starts to curve down toward the top of the wrist. Mark back from point A along the top line 13 5/8 and down 1 3/4 to the heel and now you can draw in the comb line. For myself I marked down with a 4 degree negative pitch and drew in the curve for the checkered steel butt plate. If you need a longer L O P I would stoll draw in the drop a heel at the 13 5/8 mark and continue the comb line till you reached your desired L O P.
I am going to grind back the steel plate to give me a length of 4 7/8 so from that point I can draw in the toe line of the butt from the tip of the butt plate to the 1 3/4 mark on the grip cap line.
It will be noted that this line (continued) is above the grip curve by 3/16 - 1/4 but this all helps to lighten the appearance of the stock.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284313 - 22/06/16 02:40 PM

I made a start on the trial blind mag stock today. I am going to use a altered military trigger where the finger piece is adjusted to the rear by about a 1/4 to bring it closer to the rear of the trigger bow so I took the one off my other 7x57 so I could get the placement of the action on the blank.
Center of the trigger face is the datum point so measuring back to the rear stock screw centre is the first move

Then the front stock screw can be marked in

From these two points the trigger clearance slot can be done and the action sat into the blank on the headless screws to mark in the other data points

And a while later it is starting to settle into the wood.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284314 - 22/06/16 02:41 PM

Have the action settled into the wood. I had the stock for my DWM set on the bench as a visual guide and for measurement checks.



I made a start on the jig to allow the use of the router to do the blind mag. I cut a block to fit into the recoil lug and fixed a slow wedge shaped piece to it so the top of the guide was parallel to the bottom of the stock.
Careful measuring of the internal mag dimensions and allowing for the guide collar on the router base required a 1/2 inch over the required size so I should get the correct finished size. I will try it tomorrow on a scrap piece first then one the practice stock. Going to be an interesting trial.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284315 - 22/06/16 02:42 PM

have been able to get the practice inlet done after a couple of alterations to the jig and it holds four down and feeds flawlessly. Then the barrel turned up that had been part of the trade for the action. It was a stepped barrel that I had intended to have the steps machined off but it turned out to be a large ring barrel so wouldnt fit the small ring action without turning the thread off and rethreading for the small ring. As it was just 20 1/4 in long, this coupled with the machining needed for the step removal and the rethreading put it out of contention for use so in thinkingnthrough the possibilities I got onto one of the short chambered 6.5x55 barrels from Brownells which I will have shortened a little and rechambered for the 6.5x57.
I got a set of Hornady New Dimension dies in 6.5x57 from Ebay for under US$58 so things are moving in the right direction again.
Frank has been exceptionally generous and sent me a lovely blank to build this one on



--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284316 - 22/06/16 02:44 PM

This is the trial inlet on the practice stock. Initially I made the whole well the same depth but then put a fillet in and reset the jig so I could cut the spring end recess. I make no apologies for the rather rough look to the wood but the rimu is not a suitable stockwood as it has a fiberous texture and tears a little rather than clean cutting like walnut. It was getting the mag well sorted that was important rather than a fanvy finish.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284317 - 22/06/16 02:44 PM

I made a sighting decision over night (well between 2.30am and 5.30am it became clear) and will use a universal front ramp from NECG
http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/item_info.asp?Brand_id=4237&ST=Basic Front Ramp - Rounded#.VujgSuRJnIU
with the high sourdough blade that I can regulate to suit. http://www.newenglandcustomgun.com/Gun_Services/item_info.asp?Brand_id=4214&ST=Sourdough Sight for Masterpiece & Classic Banded Ramp#.VujgneRJnIU

I will not use a barrel mounted rear sight but will fit the Talley low bases http://www.talleymanufacturing.com/Produ...Small-Ring.aspx
with the Talley aperture sight http://www.talleymanufacturing.com/Products/Scope-Ring-Bases-Peep-Sight/Peep-Sight.aspx
Initial shooting will all be done with the aperture sight but a set of QD rings will be in its future with a Leupold M8 6 power fixed scope.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284318 - 22/06/16 02:45 PM

This superb piece of wood turned up this morning and I couldn't wait to get it to the shed and plane off one side to straighten and flatten it then run it through the thicknesser to see what was hiding under the rough sawn surface.
I was more than plesantly surprised to see the wonderfull colours emergs with the grain structure being swirls and fiddleback with a marblecake apearance. It is the most even on both side of any blank I have seen and would easily sit amongst exibition grade blanks in any walnut supplier.
A very big thank you to Frank for this one.




--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284319 - 22/06/16 02:48 PM

As most who undertake these sort of builds will know there is a WHOLE LOT OF PIC GATHERING that goes on with the end result being that many are deleted as the ideas refine themselves and the decision gets made as to the finished apearance that I want to aim for is made. First and formost I would like to to look similar to Terry's rifle and even though it is a CZ Mini Mauser in 223 I think the style will translate over to my Erfurt actioned 6.5x57. This is the overall look I am going for with buffalo horn tip and grip cap, the shadowline pancake cheekpiece off a 3/16 cast to the butt with an aditional 1/8 in cant to the butt plate which will be a checkered steel curved plate.

The bolt release will be shelved but will not have the lowered portion continue through the action rails


With this reshaping of the tang the grip will be able to slim up over the top and add to the svelte feel I am looking for.

Have got a Tally bolt handle coming and it will be welded on so that there will not need to be a scollop ground out for a low scope rings something like this one here.


So with my flag nailed to the mast and my colours showing I will have to now try and get as close to this ideal as I can manage.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284339 - 23/06/16 01:03 AM

Congratulations, Von Gruff!

This represents a well planned and executed project. Hats off!

This is my small ring (Danzig, I believe) 6.5X57. The rifle is more or less the way it was when I acquired it. I added the ramp front sight, mainly for cosmetic reasons, and the Buehler base and rings with the Lyman Alaskan scope. I probably need to treat it to a nice checkering job. Even without the checkering, it has proven to be deadly on deer.



Edited by xausa (23/06/16 01:05 AM)


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: xausa]
      #284345 - 23/06/16 05:14 AM

Are you handloading for yours??
QL is telling me I can run the 139gn bullet to 2800fps (H4350) and the 120gn to 2950fps (H414) with a 57k psi redline so there is plenty of performance to tap into.

This was posted on another forum and the calculation of bar to psi gives me the 57kpsi that I used for the QL data


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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metal
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Reged: 30/04/13
Posts: 66
Loc: Australia
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284354 - 23/06/16 08:21 AM

Von Gruff, isn't that a small ring, large thread action? You mentioned that you ordered a small ring barrel.
Cheers,
Metal.


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: metal]
      #284361 - 23/06/16 08:55 AM

A large ring barrel wouldn't go near the threads and with measurement it showed to be a small ring thread or so the GS said. It ended up being irrelevant anyway as getting the new barrel made this an accademic question for me. The new 6.5x55 barrel was a large ring but as I had to have a 1/2 inch cut off the chamber end to rechamber for the 6.5x57 it was rethreaded to suit my action.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (23/06/16 08:59 AM)


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284363 - 23/06/16 09:01 AM

Another instalment

Made a start on the action inlet today. I didn't profile the top of the butt section so I would have a flat surface to run the hand router on. That gets done after the primary inlet is done down to the action flat
The underside is cut paralell to the top for the drilling of holes etc. As mentioned in drawing up the stock pattern the face of the trigger is marked in first (from the pattern) and the screw holes can be plotted from there. The grain has a lot of twists and turns so the inet is time for real concentration with grain ends going in all sorts of directions.

When the action flat depth has been reached the butt portion is run through the bandsaw to make the inlet of the tang easier.
Have still got nearly an 1/8 in to go but it is getting there and will do for today.


Then with the action inlet done and the trigger slot cut in. Next in line will be the blind mag well.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (23/06/16 09:02 AM)


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284364 - 23/06/16 09:03 AM

The blind mag well has been done and turned out as well as I could have hoped for.
This is the slow wedge so that when I am routing it down I know that the well will be paralell to the bottom of the stock.


You can see the block that locates into the recoil lug area


There needs to be a means of holding the guide plate to the slow wedge so a length of 2x1 1/2 (cramping blocks) along each side has a notch cut in it to take the ends of the locating block. The top plate was screwed to these cramping blocks and with the notches and screw locating points I can be sure it will all go back to the same configuration on any stock I care to do the same thing to.



The router guide area cut into the top plate was cut undersize at first and with the stock in the vise held by the cramping blocks I could take the top plate off and it would go back into the same place again so I could gradually open up the guide area to leave the correct size well.




--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (23/06/16 09:04 AM)


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284365 - 23/06/16 09:07 AM

When I got to the shed this morning I fitted the bolt top and chiseled, filed, and sanded it into position then cleared over the top of the tang and left it for now.
Then it was onto the butt plate.


I marked in the center of the butt and then marked in for a 3/16 cast plus another 1/8 for cant



With the butt plate fitted like this the mount to shoulder will be enhanced and I will have the necesary wood to do the cheek piece.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

Edited by VonGruff (23/06/16 09:08 AM)


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284366 - 23/06/16 09:10 AM

With that done I turned to the grip cap as that will demarcate the wrist size for the shaping of the butt stock.
With a piece of buff horn trimmed to shape (1 3/4x1 1/4) for a slim grip


a rebate was filed round the edge



and then it was radiused over the top



after which a sand to clean off the file marks.



The holes were drilled for the 2 little brass dowles and it was epoxied into place.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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xausa
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284367 - 23/06/16 09:21 AM

I generally go for moderate loads while hand loading. My copy of Wiederladen shown 800 mps (2625 fps) at maximum pressure of 3900 bar with a 140 grain Speer bullet and 39.7 grains of Vihtavuori N140 powder.It also shows 865 mps (2838 fps) with a Swift 120 grain bullet and 45 grains of Vihtavuori 550 powder with maximum pressure. I think I could live with either of those loads.

Of course 3900 bar (56564.72 psi) is not a high pressure by modern standards, and could probably be safely exceeded. I don't think I want to try it with a WW I era action, however.


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: xausa]
      #284369 - 23/06/16 12:44 PM

I will run through the data when doing a ladder test and look for accuracy nodes. Not after ragged edge velocity but do want to be able to get what is on the table within the limits.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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dok
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Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284372 - 23/06/16 08:21 PM

Fantastic stuff VonGruff. Very interesting to see it coming together.

--------------------
DOK


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: dok]
      #284475 - 25/06/16 02:18 PM

With the grip cap epoxied in place the stock was run through the bandsaw but just from the tang back so the shaping of the butt and cheekpiece was about all I can do untill the barrel arrives.

The cheekpiece is marked arround with a chisel but the multiple grain directions means that more care is taken with wood removal with this blank than any other one I have ever worked with.

Once the lines are marked in I found that files were the ony safe way to get things shaped without the risk of having the short grain chip out.

Having got the general shape of what will be the shadowline filed in I will leave it like this un till the final finish shaping is done so the fine edge of what will be the actual cheekpiece is not damaged.

Getting the off side done was much easier so this is how it will have to sit for the time being.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284476 - 25/06/16 02:19 PM

I decided to cut the two triggers today cut today and ready for when the GS can do the micro weld.



Both finger pieces are cut off so that when they are back together the fingerpiece is a 1/4 closer to the rear of the guard and much better visualy (my opinion) It requires the TG to have a waist filed into it but this all enhances the feel.





--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284477 - 25/06/16 02:19 PM

this is what it will look like when done as I did the same thing for my DWM 7x57



after that was done I got the shadowline roughed in on the cheekpiece


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284478 - 25/06/16 02:20 PM

I had a bit ofl success with the barrel band sling eye. I had a few of the Lee Enfield inner bands that looked remarkedly like a good start to barrel band sling eye so I deceded to see what it would lok like with a bit of alteration.
I found a long threaded piece that fit the LE inner band thread and with it screwed right in to touch the opposite side of the band it held tight, so I could hold it in the drill press. Then with a file, I reduced the dia of the locating screw portion to the dia of the sling stud from TOTW. I also managed to hold this in the drill press on the tapered screw threads and with a small 3 corner file was able to reduce the shank to the o/d of the screw (still leaving a shoulder to go against the band locating screw area) and will get it threaded to go into the band although I may shorten the locating screw portion to the shortest that will allow the swiver to rotate without impacting the barrel. Was probably about 2 1/2 hrs in it so not a bad way to save sending money off the NECG.

Yhe i/d of the band is almost right but these bands have 4 little ridges to facilitate fitting to the LE barrels and with a little fitting it will be move up the barrel for another few inches till it ends up half way between the end of the forestock and the muzzle.


--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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VonGruff
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Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: a 1916 Erfurt Kar 98a 6.5x57 project [Re: VonGruff]
      #284479 - 25/06/16 02:22 PM

Have made a decision on the trigger guard. I had originally thought to use a SxS shotgun styled guard but will use the mauser bottom metal and cimply cut the mag box off it, continue the bow curve round to where it meets the base that will be under the stockwood and cut it square from there. It will require a little weld to fill what is left of the sling attachment hole but the anchor screw for the rear action screw will need filling anyway so not a big deal. I will fit a nut into the under channel so an anchor screw can be drilled down through the stock and locate to hold the front of the guard.
It will get a waist on the bow so that is another part decided on that will get attended to in the days to come.



--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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