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DonZ
.300 member


Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW
Restoration Question
      #284060 - 17/06/16 01:27 PM

I know that everyone would like to find a stock rifle, unmolested, perfect after almost 100 years. But in all honesty, I'd rather have a shooter, because I'd like to take it to the field and play with it. With that in mind, I'm OK with restoring, re-bluing, even fitting a new stock or similar. But I can't say I have a lot of experience with that, so I have a question for those who have.

I've been looking for a pre-war .30-06 for some time. I haven't found the perfect one yet, but I do keep looking. I've found one that needs some work, and I think is over-prices (which is a different issue), but I was hoping for some advice.

This one has some pitting, and some rust about the muzzle, and other defects. I would be willing to fill, polish, and re-blue, but this one may be too far gone for that.

I'm even willing to go with a shorter barrel to remove the offending section, and go with a stutzen stock (I know, that's way out there, and may affect accuracy... the .30 - 06 likes some barrel length). But I'm most worried about this etching in the receiver area. Can this be fixed, or is the whole thing hopeless? Thoughts from those who know?



--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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GG375
.333 member


Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re: Restoration Question [Re: DonZ]
      #284068 - 17/06/16 07:18 PM

I'll be watching this post with interest because I just sent a 1925 built M1910 away for restoration/refurbishment......and fitting of a modern 2-7 Khales scope in claw mounts.

It too, could do with some filling of rust pits, but overall is in fairly decent nick considering its age.

Good luck and hope you get some good responses.

Cheers.

GG


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Vladymere
.300 member


Reged: 11/08/15
Posts: 187
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Re: Restoration Question [Re: GG375]
      #284083 - 18/06/16 07:50 AM

I think that you could use a stone to polish the etching out. It will cut into the Sequoia marking some but if your careful it should not be noticable. If you do this and then rust blue it should look great.

Vlad


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Wayne59
.400 member


Reged: 20/06/15
Posts: 1219
Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Restoration Question [Re: Vladymere]
      #284085 - 18/06/16 09:45 AM

The etching your referring to dose not look very deep. Polishing it out will not hurt a thing.

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member


Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2443
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: Restoration Question [Re: Wayne59]
      #284088 - 18/06/16 11:10 AM

Most of the time pitting and rust etching is nowhere as deep as it looks and can be polished out easily. For anything that is deeper it can be laser welded. Super low temp,very small and accurate and does not show through the bluing afterwards. It is a common method used in England and Europe for restoration.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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lonewulf
.300 member


Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand
Re: Restoration Question [Re: Wayne59]
      #284089 - 18/06/16 11:18 AM

Does anyone know the significance of the 'Sequoia' legend? Is it one of those markings typically put on at the request of the retailer?

I've never come across it before in relation to firearms. Trees yes, firearms no. Anyone have any ideas?

Edited by lonewulf (18/06/16 11:20 AM)


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DonZ
.300 member


Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW
Re: Restoration Question [Re: lonewulf]
      #284094 - 18/06/16 01:32 PM

From another website:
Our Assessment: In 1924, the Sequoia Import Company of San Francisco imported 1000 Mannlicher Schoenauer bolt action rifles from Steyr. The Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles were very popular in Europe, and made in European calibers. Sequoia convinced Steyr to make the rifles in .30-06 Springfield so that they would be more readily accepted here in the United States. Many of Steyr’s previous models were made in one caliber only, and there was no reason to mark the caliber, since the model defined it. This is the case with the Model 1924 model, and the caliber was not marked on the rifle. Unfortunately, the European look of the rifle wasn’t that popular, or else the prospective buyers thought the rifle too light for the caliber. In any event, the rifles didn’t sell all that well and many were sent back to Steyr to be re-barreled to different calibers, at which time the calibers were marked on the receiver’s chamber ring. Going forward, new rifles made to the same design were renamed as the Model 1925 and offered in European calibers as well as .30-06, with the calibers marked on the chamber ring.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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2152hq
.300 member


Reged: 20/05/12
Posts: 126
Loc: USA
Re: Restoration Question [Re: DonZ]
      #284106 - 18/06/16 03:21 PM

That damage is nothing,,it can be polished off w/o any problem. The markings can be re-cut and the area brought back to it's original look.
Not deep enough to worry about getting into welding. Even then there are other ways of filling holes and voids w/o welding and still have them disappear.
It takes someone with the skills to do so of course, but that's what 'restoration' is all about.


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DonZ
.300 member


Reged: 24/12/12
Posts: 120
Loc: BW
Re: Restoration Question [Re: 2152hq]
      #285389 - 17/07/16 12:41 PM

So my follow on question to this is an "opinion question". What is the feeling on restorations? Obviously, an untouched rifle would better retain its value, but from there? Would you be changing the value of the rifle too much by polishing/rebluing? How much is too much? Would changing barrel length be going too far? Going from a half stock to a full stock? I would imagine finding a dual trigger to replace a single trigger or vice-versa would not be too big a deal, but other changes?

I'm just curious what various peoples opinion on this subject are. In the above case, if the barrel and rifling were good, but there was pitting along the end of the barrel, it seems like cutting it down would be understandable, and then of course a full stock would be reasonable. I'm wondering what people feel about such changes.

Thanks for your insights.

--------------------
Honor never grows old, and honor rejoices the heart of age...


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Al333
.333 member


Reged: 24/02/13
Posts: 287
Loc: B.C. Canada
Re: Restoration Question [Re: DonZ]
      #285397 - 17/07/16 03:27 PM

In my years of collecting, I found that a good professional cleaning ( and I do stress professional ) cleaning didn't do any harm. But any modications to a firearm would definitely decrease the value. Al

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Restoration Question [Re: Al333]
      #285407 - 18/07/16 01:12 AM

Quote:

In my years of collecting, I found that a good professional cleaning ( and I do stress professional ) cleaning didn't do any harm. But any modications to a firearm would definitely decrease the value. Al




Yes-ditto - damage can be repaired, however shortening or other modifications will decrease any collector's value. It's value then becomes that of a shooter or hunting rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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sharps4590
.333 member


Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 270
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #285413 - 18/07/16 03:33 AM

What Al & Daryl said. The more...scarce the firearm the more reluctant I would be to touch it other than as Al mentioned. Given how scarce unmolested pre-war M/S are becoming and that one being one of such a small run I would be even more reluctant. I have learned nearly all the old rifles can be made to shoot more than adequately for hunting purposes. If I want to shoot bug holes I'll use a newer rifle and leave my collectibles alone.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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ducmarc
.400 member


Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
Loc: fla
Re: Restoration Question [Re: sharps4590]
      #285422 - 18/07/16 10:57 AM

Have it rebarreled with an exact copy sans the markings save the old barrel.it can be polished around the stamping plus there's a fellow out west that reingraves rifles I can try to find his no. If you get it reblued tell them not to polish the whole rifle just the offending area.and do a blackish military style blue not the colt python polished.just had a model 70 done it was done back oraginal look a matt like finish.im looking at a mannlicher locally if I go for it was going to have my friend duplicate the barrel only in 318 Westley Richards.have too many 3006 now.just save the barrel for resale.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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ducmarc
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Reged: 14/07/14
Posts: 1207
Loc: fla
Re: Restoration Question [Re: ducmarc]
      #285423 - 18/07/16 11:15 AM

Gunfancy.com he's in Tennessee so out west for me.thinking about having my colt 70series recut.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.


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MRobinson
.275 member


Reged: 29/01/06
Posts: 66
Loc: New England
Re: Restoration Question [Re: ducmarc]
      #285507 - 21/07/16 03:00 AM

I would not be inclined to change a stock original in good condition. I would be more likely to keep it as-is or sell it to another collector. Especially if it had significant value.

But I could see my way clear to make changes to one that was in bad shape or that had been previously modified by someone else - e.g., I would feel free to drill and tap and mount a scope on it, modify or replace the stock, re-barrel, etc.

--------------------
Mike


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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Restoration Question [Re: MRobinson]
      #285510 - 21/07/16 04:39 AM

Quote:

From another website:
Our Assessment: In 1924, the Sequoia Import Company of San Francisco imported 1000 Mannlicher Schoenauer bolt action rifles from Steyr. The Mannlicher Schoenauer rifles were very popular in Europe, and made in European calibers. Sequoia convinced Steyr to make the rifles in .30-06 Springfield so that they would be more readily accepted here in the United States. Many of Steyr’s previous models were made in one caliber only, and there was no reason to mark the caliber, since the model defined it. This is the case with the Model 1924 model, and the caliber was not marked on the rifle. Unfortunately, the European look of the rifle wasn’t that popular, or else the prospective buyers thought the rifle too light for the caliber. In any event, the rifles didn’t sell all that well and many were sent back to Steyr to be re-barreled to different calibers, at which time the calibers were marked on the receiver’s chamber ring. Going forward, new rifles made to the same design were renamed as the Model 1925 and offered in European calibers as well as .30-06, with the calibers marked on the chamber ring.



Almost right! Though the original Steyr –Sequoia contract was for 1000 rifles, much less ever made it to the USA. My own is Steyr serial number 299! The left over M1924s were not rebarreled, but merely remarked with the metric designation for the .30-06, 7.62x63, and offered in late-1920s catalogs alongside the M1925s in 7x64 and 8x60S, but at a 10% discount. The 30-06 simply was not yet popular in Germany and Austria.


The M1924 is not exactly the same as the M1925, neither action nor configuration. Outwardly the M1924 is easily recognised by an unique Express-type rear sight with 3 folding leaves, but no standing one. Maybe Sequoia intended to fit Lyman #36 peep sights ? On the 25 Steyr went back to the usual "Continental" standing rear sight with one folding leaf. Additionally, the 24 foreend seems to be a bit shorter than usual on M-Sch rifles in front of the sling loop.
The magazine arrangement too was was changed slightly from 24 to 25: The 24 was the first Mannlicher – Schoenauer with a cartridge guide ring around the carrier. On the 24 this ring was around the bullets of the loaded cartridges. On the 25 this guide ring was set back, aroud the cartridge case necks in front of the shoulder.



The photo shows, left to right: 1903 , 1910 magazine followers, both without guide rings, 1924 follower with guide ring forward around bullets, 1925 follower with guide ring more rear around case necks, post-WW2 "Magnum" magazine.



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