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cordite
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Loc: NW Montana
Schultz and Larsen 54j
      #283481 - 06/06/16 05:52 AM

I like working with uncommon rifles and cartridges so I couldn't help but be attracted to this rifle in 7x61. I had not had a chance before to examine the Schultz and Larsen action and am impressed by how solid it appears to be. The action is extremely smooth and overall workmanship seems first rate.
[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160604_131958_zpsk48qeqtm.jpg.html][/URL][/image]
[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160604_132027_zpsxwwxsu8w.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
Posts: 341
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #283482 - 06/06/16 06:02 AM

The barrel has been shortened to 23 inches. I covered up the white line spacers on the grip cap and butt pad because I have found over the years that I am allergic to that sort of thing. I put an old reliable Redfield scope on it but found I needed to rotate the scope 90 degrees to keep the brass from hitting the scope cap when they were ejected from the rifle. After that it feeds and ejects wonderfully. The single stack bottom loading magazine is different but seems to work fine. Dies and brass came with the rifle so it will be shot in the next few days.

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DarylS
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #283485 - 06/06/16 08:17 AM

Nice - I don't mind the 7x61 at all - or S&L's. It's the 7mm Rem Mag. I am allergic to, in any rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yochanan
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: DarylS]
      #283507 - 06/06/16 06:28 PM

Cordite,
Buzz Huntington made a set of form dies for me many years ago - uses 7 mm rem mag cases as base.. I can highly recommend this.

Cheers
J

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

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eagle27
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: Yochanan]
      #283520 - 06/06/16 08:36 PM

I used the M60 (cock on closing) and the M65 (cock on opening) S&L rifles in 7x61 S&H for many decades of hunting. One of the smoothest and strongest actions ever made. Apparently these actions have been tested to 120,000psi with no adverse effects. They have superb triggers and barrels which do not foul and are fast. The original Norma factory ammo with the 160gr bullet chronographed at 3050fps (3100fps factory spec) in my M60 with the 26" barrel and I had no trouble getting 3000fps with Sierra Gameking 160gr bullets in my reloads.
The 160gr Sierra bullets at this velocity really reached out and hit hard, but also performed perfectly at close range (might damage some meat but it was meat on the ground not still wandering in the bush.

Carefully sizing the cases to headspace on the shoulder gave good brass life. The Norma factory ammo was pretty sloppy in the chamber but it was very accurate and the original 160gr bullet in the S&H cartridges was a good killer. Not so the bullet Norma loaded in the later Super cases which was way too hard and mostly just drilled through deer. Norma promoted their new Super 7x61 with pictures of African game and I suspect they hardened up their bullets for this purpose, something I think was borne out when I sectioned an original 160 gr and a Super 160gr, the Super had shiny lead core (harder?) while the original had dull blue lead core(softer?).

I found it best to always load the magazine from the bottom, doesn't matter which side first just drop the 3 rounds in, otherwise they invariably didn't feed the first round if the magazine was charged from the top.

Only downside, and the reason I eventually sold the M60 I still had, was that with a 6x Kahles scope and a mag full it weighed 10lb. Nice weight to shoot but just got harder to lug around as I got older especially up in our Alps on chamois and tahr.

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: eagle27]
      #283534 - 06/06/16 11:39 PM

The rifle came with rcbs dies and 40 pieces of Norma brass. I wanted more brass so I picked up a box of 50 Hornady 7mm mag brass. I wanted to see if I could make 7x61 from 7mm rem mag just using the sizing die. Even with the die down on the shell holder it was not pushing the 7mm mag shoulder back far enough to chamber. I removed a bit of material from the bottom of the sizing die and it then worked perfectly. I adjusted the die down a little at a time until a trimmed case would just chamber in the rifle. I did all 50 pieces of Hornady brass without losing any. I then annealed them and they are ready to go. I don't know how their case capacity compares with original 7x61 super brass. I plan to try it out tomorrow.

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lancaster
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #283549 - 07/06/16 05:41 AM

when it came out the 7x61 was ahead so I wonder this cartridge was not adopted by other firms then. seems me it is the rational mddle between a 7x57 and a 7 mm ultra super wonder magnum.
be pleasing more and more by the Schultz&Larsen action it was one of the most interesting aquisitions I ever made.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #283568 - 07/06/16 09:48 AM

Quote:

The rifle came with rcbs dies and 40 pieces of Norma brass. I wanted more brass so I picked up a box of 50 Hornady 7mm mag brass. I wanted to see if I could make 7x61 from 7mm rem mag just using the sizing die. Even with the die down on the shell holder it was not pushing the 7mm mag shoulder back far enough to chamber. I removed a bit of material from the bottom of the sizing die and it then worked perfectly. I adjusted the die down a little at a time until a trimmed case would just chamber in the rifle. I did all 50 pieces of Hornady brass without losing any. I then annealed them and they are ready to go. I don't know how their case capacity compares with original 7x61 super brass. I plan to try it out tomorrow.



That's the way! However, depending on the sizing dies, you could run into trouble. If so. You use the seating die first, then the size die, forming should be easier yet, with no crushed case failures.

We use this method in a bunch of different wildcat ctgs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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cordite
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Reged: 29/01/07
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: DarylS]
      #283729 - 11/06/16 05:12 AM

Just got back from my second range session. I had 130 grain speer and 154 grain Hornady bullets along with rl 22 and h4831 sc powders. It shot everything well but seemed to have a slight preference for 130 grain bullets and h4831 sc powder. Not sure what the twist rate is but from what I have read it is likely a slow 1:12.
Being a hunter, I'm not really interested much in target shooting but I do appreciate an accurate rifle. This one is!



[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160609_125152_zps7syjrs1l.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

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eagle27
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #283735 - 11/06/16 07:36 AM

I don't know about the M54J but I am sure it would have the same twist rate as the M60 which is stamped on the barrel as 1:12 for the 7x61 chambering. This twist rate stabilised the sleek 160gr boattail bullets and of course lighter projectiles but would not usually stabilise 175 gr bullets so well. The later model S&L rifles, the M65 and M68, had 1:10 twist barrels.

I did load some Norma 175gr round nose bullets in my M60 and used on Whitetail deer in the bush and accuracy was fine for this application but Speer 175gr SS Magnum projectiles showed greater instability at longer ranges, not key holing but showing enlarged bullet holes on paper. Accuracy was still minute of big animal, shot a few large wild cattle with the Speer bullets at longer range and they certainly knew what had hit them. Never chronographed any 175gr loads but was using Norma N205 powder at the maximum recommended charge so likely achieving close to their advertised 2900fps MV.

As often mentioned in various reloading books, the 7x61 usually achieved high velocities with smaller amounts of powder than any of the other 7mm Magnums and was superbly accurate doing so.
Lyman and Speer were always praiseworthy of the 7x61 cartridge while Hornady seemed to be more interested in protecting and boosting the reputation of the 7mm RM and WM cartridges above any others. Ironically Joyce Hornady shot a record Moose with a 7x61.

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cordite
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: eagle27]
      #283793 - 13/06/16 12:44 AM

Thanks for your comments eagle27. I wish I had discovered these rifles years ago and now had your level of experience with them. I measured the twist rate and it is 1:12.
I've been doing a lot of reading about these rifles and I think the 54j has gotten some unfair press compared to the "improved" models like the 65 and 68. The rifles were changed for the American market but how much were they really improved.
The cock on closing is no problem at all. It felt a little different at first but I am now already used to it. No issue.
The single stack magazine works great. There is no where for the rounds to go and get out of alignment. Each and every round comes up directly under the bolt and pointed directly into the chamber. And I haven't noticed any pregnant belly aspect to the stock that some have observed.
I guess, in the interest of science, I will have to get one of the newer models and see for myself!

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lancaster
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #283799 - 13/06/16 04:42 AM

cock on closing is not easy for me, it need allways a working brain to do it and I still believe its like right - handed / left-handed.



for me cock on opening is like being right -handed and driving on the right so maybe the reason the british with the lee enfield had the cock on closing rifle with the longest service life.
having such actions and use it together with the common cock on opening actions helps you against the common brain dead now so widespread.
dont have a Lee Speed only knowing the military rifle the action I like most in the end is the swedish Mauser.


the M 65 and M 68 were the peak of the S&L evolution and like the Mannlicher Schönauer they came to an final end between 1968 and 1970 because the quality and the craftsmanship became unaffordable than.






dont had a M 54 in my hands till know I am sure this rifles had the same peace time quality like the later models.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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cordite
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: lancaster]
      #284519 - 26/06/16 08:10 AM

I made 50 more pieces of brass out of 7mm remington mag just using the sizing die, no problem.

Has anyone used the 173 grain hirtenberger bullet for hunting? I want a good timber load. I thought it might be too long for the 1:12 twist but to my surprise it is actually shorter than the 154 grain hornady spitzer. So I don't see why it won't shoot as well or better. Don't know how well it is constructed. If it is designed for the 7mm Mauser it might open a little too quick at 7x61 velocities.

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eagle27
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #284521 - 26/06/16 08:34 AM

Quote:

I made 50 more pieces of brass out of 7mm remington mag just using the sizing die, no problem.

Has anyone used the 173 grain hirtenberger bullet for hunting? I want a good timber load. I thought it might be too long for the 1:12 twist but to my surprise it is actually shorter than the 154 grain hornady spitzer. So I don't see why it won't shoot as well or better. Don't know how well it is constructed. If it is designed for the 7mm Mauser it might open a little too quick at 7x61 velocities.



Stability of projectiles is not so much a factor of their overall length it is more affected by their centre of gravity. A spitzer bullet of a weight approaching that of a heavier round nose bullet, as is the case of the 154gr Hornady, will have a longer overall length but the centre of gravity will see it stabilise easier than say the long shanked 175gr which will have the centre of gravity closer to the nose.
The higher the velocity that the heavier bullet is driven will also assist with stability in a barrel with a twist that is not quite ideal.

I think any of the 173-175gr 7mm bullets would be fine in the 7x61. The Hirtenbergers were usually nicely constructed bullets and a 173-175gr 7mm is a long bullet with plenty of base to hold it together even if the expansion is greater in the higher velocity cartridge.

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cordite
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: eagle27]
      #288380 - 27/09/16 02:03 AM

Just a follow up. I took the Schultz and Larsen on a Wyoming elk hunt. My brother and I loaded up two pack horses and hiked about 10 miles into the wilderness and set up camp. Have been doing this for many years and hope to continue as long as I am up to it. The S&L did just fine.

[image]http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/cordite_lee1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/7947-1_zpsuwqljzsr.jpg.html][/URL][/image]

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lancaster
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #288384 - 27/09/16 04:00 AM

waidmannsheil

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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Jorgen
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #288518 - 30/09/16 06:28 PM

Congratulations from Denmark = www.Schultz Larsen Club.dk.
Can I get No. Of your rifle ???

Jorgen

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cordite
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: Jorgen]
      #288531 - 01/10/16 12:20 AM

Jorgen, pm sent.

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Jorgen
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #288619 - 02/10/16 11:35 PM

Thanks. You have PM Answers

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TIMBERMAN
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54 [Re: cordite]
      #335637 - 19/12/19 03:14 AM

I have one S&L custom made target rifle by a gunsmith at Norma Ammunition AB. 28 mm barrel. And yes the feeling is so undestructible and a genuine smooth fit on the pieces. The trigger is gLovely smooth to fire.

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93x64mm
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54 [Re: TIMBERMAN]
      #335643 - 19/12/19 06:52 AM

Well done Cordite - lovely Elk to say the least.
Good round the 7x61.

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Rule303
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #335644 - 19/12/19 09:11 AM

Cordite, well done on that Elk.

Lancaster, sorry for late reply. From what I have read in my younger years. The Cock on closing is the best and safest way for a battle bolt action rifle to function. The Brits found that with the heat generated with rapid fire of large number of rounds the bolt was easier to open with cock on close. With cock on open the bolt would/could be come stiff to open due to expansion of the steel in the action. For hunting I find cock on opening the better way but have no trouble with cock on close.

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vykkagur
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54 [Re: Rule303]
      #335697 - 22/12/19 04:45 AM

Quote:

Cordite, well done on that Elk.

Lancaster, sorry for late reply. From what I have read in my younger years. The Cock on closing is the best and safest way for a battle bolt action rifle to function. The Brits found that with the heat generated with rapid fire of large number of rounds the bolt was easier to open with cock on close. With cock on open the bolt would/could be come stiff to open due to expansion of the steel in the action. For hunting I find cock on opening the better way but have no trouble with cock on close.



You're right on the money with the rapid fire, Rule303. British doctrine at the time stressed high-rate, aimed fire (Battle of Mons). They found cock-on-closing led to a higher rate of fire, for several reasons, such as extraction. Remember, this is for men who had little or no experience with shooting, especially bolt actions, prior to going into the army, so they had no preconceived preferences to overcome, no habits to unlearn.

(Almost all my rifles are cock-on-close; I'm uncomfortable using the other system, which feels unnatural to me.)

Cock-on-closing wasn't the only element of rapid-fire design. They also looked at such things as bolt handle placement in relation to the trigger. Few people seem to understand that the curious dogleg shape of the P13/P14 Enfield bolt handle was as a result of rapid-fire testing with the prototypes. I'm very fond of the shape on mine, but others go to great lengths to reshape them into something bland (Mauser-like.)

Off-topic bit of trivia: The British Army wasn't alone in their insistence on a high rate of aimed fire. The Royal Navy was equally enamoured with the practice. Some have made the case that their desire to have quick access to ammunition during battle led to the stockpiling of cordite outside of masgazines, and failing to keep blast doors closed to speed reloading. The result may have had much to do with the loss of so many battle cruisers to magazine explosions.

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Rule303
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54 [Re: vykkagur]
      #335699 - 22/12/19 07:22 AM

Vykkagur you are correct about the placement of the bolt knob. Not many people are aware of this. I learnt to shoot with Lee Enfield based rifles and as such took me a little time to get used to Mauser derivatives and why I took very readily to the Rem M 700. Well the P14/M17 is the great grandfather of the M700.

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Sarg
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Re: Schultz and Larsen 54j [Re: cordite]
      #335705 - 22/12/19 09:24 AM

Well done on the Elk, he is a beauty to !

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