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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns

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Wayne59
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Loc: Lagrange Ga. USA
Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #279597 - 20/03/16 01:06 PM

You sure have peaked my interest in a needle fire gun.

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Wayne59
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #279604 - 20/03/16 05:22 PM

This thread has sure peaked my interest in these fine guns.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #281079 - 17/04/16 07:12 PM

another target rifle with Dreyse Falling block action, 8,15x46R SN 34641
helps me again to come closer to the time of death for Franz v. Dreyse in 1894 because 34831 is engraved with Nicolaus v. Dreyse
http://www.cowansauctions.com/auctions/item.aspx?id=84132













--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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xausa
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #281082 - 17/04/16 09:05 PM

Can you explain how that action works? It looks like a Martini from above, but then there is the hinge pin underneath and no sign of a swinging block on the side of the action.

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kuduae
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: xausa]
      #281085 - 17/04/16 10:16 PM

Quote:

Can you explain how that action works? It looks like a Martini from above, but then there is the hinge pin underneath and no sign of a swinging block on the side of the action.



May look similar to the Martini from above, but it is a true falling block. The hinge pin is the one of the underlever, which covers the whole underside of the action. The long falling block contains a coil spring + striker lock similar to the Martini lockwork. The underlever moves the breechblock straight up and down. Franz v. Dreyse's DRPatent 735 of 1877, see https://depatisnet.dpma.de/DepatisNet/de...1&xxxfull=1 , but adapted to an underlever about 1890.


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: kuduae]
      #281086 - 17/04/16 10:48 PM

I can only help with this pic



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #281963 - 06/05/16 01:24 PM

double gun 0,64" Randschluss but rechambered to 20/70, needles probably grind down into firing pins SN 234134 http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=5952109

but ... the stock although looking interesting is again not original anymore. you see on the first view it lacks the quality of a 19. century gentlemans gun especially the checkering. the damascus barrels while looking very thick are maybe not the best thing for shooting smokless loads.





































--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282737 - 22/05/16 01:18 PM

wayne59 send me pics of his new Dreyse doublegun SN 25550 made in 1885(+/-)














very unusual with the straight "english stock" it have the new slim action and the common center fire extractor.

compare it with the old model here






" Have no idea what the gauge is but a 20ga brass hull will almost slide in and a 24ga hull is to small. "

forget the gauge system completly I think this is a - 0,70" Randschlussspiegel - cartridge, here an unloaded shell



this looks like loaded with a roundball





you will find the cartridge specification here



I will make you pics how to disassemble the gun step by step and post it here. imho, the case can be made by using 20 ga Magtech brass. I am sure you can order lathe turned brass cases with having a chamber cast but it would be hard to make them so thin the drawn magtech cases are. remember the original shell only had a paper body.
my tool maker will made me a special sizing die for this job but he is a little bit overloaded with work so it needs some time. the small muzle loader caps will give the best primer. I deepen the primer pocket a little bit and put the cap upside down in it, than filled with fine gun powder. close the primer pocket with self adhesive aluminium foil whats no problem for the needle.

here for example in a 16 ga paper shell, fits in the bigger 0,74" Randschlussspiegel cartridge







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (22/05/16 10:13 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282754 - 22/05/16 10:58 PM

how to dissamble

the needle is soft soldered into the needle screw and this is screwed into the needle holder




both needle holder are screwed into the lock unit



press the lever and both trigger and take the unit back from the action




on top of the needle holders there have to be a leather disc for seal the needle hole against gas when firing, my gun need them too



loose the screw on the lever



the screw on the tang



the screw in front of the lever and the stock comes off



both screws holding the barrel



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282764 - 23/05/16 08:25 AM

Thank you for the help. The gun you have pictured is only approximately 200 guns off from mine. Mine is also marked .070 just like yours. I have lots of questions. When did Dreyse stop making needle fires. My gun is a lot newer than I figured it was. Might explain the condition. The tips on mine appear to be broken or ground. How long should the actual needles and is there an easy way to make new ones if I have to. Do you use the MagTec brass full length. I think I am using 60gr ffg and 3/4oz of 7 1/2 shot in my pin fire gun.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #282771 - 23/05/16 02:00 PM

no, mine is 23673
somewhere between this and your gun Dreyse makes different modification because the old needle fire gun became technical more and more outdated. some were outward like the slim action I have found first in the 24xxx range or the new triggers starting in the 23xxx range and other were inside like the center fire extractor and the final use of the common center fire shotgun cartridge than called Lancaster cartridge.
Dreyse like any gunmaker in history try to hold on the proprietary cartridges so long as possible. the last side-lock gun made in the 1890s for this get cartridges with a special center fire primer.
this special Dreyse shotgun cartridges were available up to WW 1.
notice that there is no real cut in production when new things came so you will still find old style guns along with modified guns.
the highest serial number on a original Dreyse double gun like our I have now points to 1890 but with all all improvments and the action probably for "Randschlussspiegel" cartridges with center fire primer.

look for a good 2.0 mm steel wire, carbon steel of course, and soft solder it into the needle screw. then there is trial and error to get the length!
take the barrel off so you can see the needle come out of the breech face. the correct length must be 12-15 mm but so short the needle are in when the action is cocked.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (23/05/16 02:01 PM)


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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #282798 - 24/05/16 05:27 AM

I will have to order some MagTech brass and some piano wire. Probable have to shelve this project for a while and finish my Kitchen. We all know how this goes. Finnish your work and then you get to play.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #284417 - 24/06/16 06:00 PM

0,34" Dreyse Lady's rifle SN 7946
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6014006





































this engraving is not made for fun, it shows you the needle have the right length whne you hold it on the end of the action





Edited by lancaster (24/06/16 06:16 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285320 - 16/07/16 09:25 AM

very interesting double rifle made between 1864 and 1867 , SN 5733 https://www.kunst-waffenkammer.de/newsletter_artikel/seltene-zuendnadeldoppelbuechse/?lang=de




the unloading rod is missing
















muzzles showing the typical view we knowing from military rifles


and the lands/grooves are given with 15,1-15,2mm /16.1-16,2mm so its clear the common military bullet with paper sabot was loaded into the 0,71" Schlussspiegel cartridge



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #285329 - 16/07/16 11:06 AM

What is the price of the rifle in US dollars or Euro's Maybe even pounds. What ever language that is I cant make anything out of the price.

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Gen_Hicks
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285340 - 16/07/16 03:13 PM

+ - 3750USD in your currency

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Wayne59
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Gen_Hicks]
      #285383 - 17/07/16 11:47 AM

Thank You.

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285694 - 27/07/16 03:51 AM

beautyfull double gun thats missing the complete needle holder - allways is something
caliber is 16mm what will be a 0,70" Randschlussspiegel
SN 14754 with a "F.v.B. 1875" on the stock what is a broad hint
http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=6049708



























--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Wayne59
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #285699 - 27/07/16 07:31 AM

Lancaster. I finally got around to dismantling the Dryse this morning and to my surprise it looked like new inside. It was packed full of some sort of grease that looked like the old style of bearing grease and had set up hard. Took about three hours to clean it all out. I was looking at your previous post about reloading and it left me with a few questions. When you turn the percussion cap up side down and insert it in the primer pocket doesn't it cover the flash hole and block the burn to the powder charge. and my second question is, what is the cartridge over all length 70mm?. What are you using for a powder charge. These shells are a little smaller than a standard 20ga so are you using the 20ga over powder and cushion wad. Enquirering minds want to know. Thanks

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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285714 - 27/07/16 12:37 PM

just try it and you will see that the copper percussion cap will be pierced with ease by the needle.this alone will open the way for the flame but be safe and fill the cap with fine black powder.
the action and the cartridge is not gastight but it handle this problem well. dont forget to have a good soft leather sealing gasket in the action.
chamber lenght is a problem for itself and I allways recommand to make a chamber cast. you will find that guns for thin paper cartridges have something like a conical chamber that going into the barrel without a step. stay with the 20 ga. magtech and you are fine.
use paper and felt wads in a diameter you get into your case without problems and fill it with BP and shot in equal shares by volume.



kuduae send me a link to an interesting double gun http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/149/1846502.html

made after the patent of J.F.Timpe from 1884 probably by Emil Barthelmes, Zella-Mehlis for a russian nobelman. the gun have german proofmarks after 1893 and having "N.v.Dreyse Belin" on the barrels.



























SN is 30925 what in a special way fits into the Dreyse Sömmerda serial numbers and do it also not.

Franz von Dreyse was dying in 1894 and the firm was coming to his son Nicolaus von Dreyse. it seems this happen between 34641 - the last gun I have with F.v.Dreyse and 34831 - the first gun with N.v. Dreyse. so the 30925 SN is much to early for the N.v.Dreyse name and I have my doubt that there was an own serial number block for the Dreyse shop in Berlin that only exist for some years in the 1890s.
its very unlikely N.v.Dreyse /Berlin sold in this time 30000 guns and giving them an own serial number. my own guess is the gun was honestly marked as "Dreyse Belin" because it was not build in Sömmerda but in Zella Mehlis ... but for some reason it got a SN that was open in Sömmerda because the original gun never came on the market in this time or the SN was not taken than.
we know that sometimes SN were reserved but this is all guesswork now.

another late 16 ga hammer gun that make no problems http://forum.guns.ru/forum_light_message/112/801988.html

N.v.Dreyse SN 35579

















another late 12 ga double gun with an unknown action N.v.Dreyse SN 36620
had a bad time in WW 2 and after, stock looks like a crude homemade affair
https://reibert.info/threads/gladkostvol-n-v-dreyse-sommerda.452620/





















here are pics of a Dreyse Drilling with the same action
http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/artisan%20l%20m%20n/a%20von%20dreyse%20gb.htm
to bad there are not more informations about it but Franz von Dreyse is maybe wrong. looks on the pics like three shotgun barrels.






another nice small bore stutzen, to bad without SN
https://www.dorotheum.com/en/auctions/cu...ch=Quick+Search














Edited by lancaster (28/07/16 02:29 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #285966 - 01/08/16 05:07 AM

the hardware of half stock Patent rifle in 11mm caliber, medium size action, SN 16636
http://bron.iweb.pl/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=39915&view=previous






















--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #286071 - 03/08/16 07:51 PM

very interesting double rifle in 11,15x60R again N.v.Dreyse Berlin & Sömmerda
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100720764

hope the seller will give me the serial number for my data list, Kudua give me the idea that Dreyse Berlin -Sömmerda was maybe a semi-indipendent corporation of N.v.Dreyse that ended when he take over the factory in Sömmerda:


"Timpe had a shop at the very prestigious boulevard Unter den Linden 31, central Berlin. Apparently Timpe was near the end of his career in the early 1890s. By 1895 he had amalgamated with Heinrich Leue, Berlin, to Form the Leue & Timpe company. About 1900 H.Leue is mentioned as the owner of the company.

Maybe NvD II and Timpe formed a short- lived partnership of sorts, to capitalize on the famous v.Dreyse name and Timpe's prestigious Berlin address? This certainly Ended when NvD II inherited the Soemmerda factory in 1894."

whatever it be new guns will bring new informations but here is the double - can't remember another double rifle with octagonal to round barrels

































--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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93x64mm
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: lancaster]
      #286101 - 04/08/16 08:06 AM

Wow - beautiful wood & its finish is magnificent!
The whole piece overall is incredible if I'm reading this correctly to be over 120 years old?
93x64mm


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: 93x64mm]
      #286113 - 04/08/16 06:23 PM

yes, over 120 years now

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Dreyse Double [Re: Wayne59]
      #286671 - 21/08/16 06:36 AM

got the SN of the double rifle its made +/- in 1895

another more common 16 ga Hammergun SN 33453
http://www.gunvaluesboard.com/fv-dreyse-16-gauge-double-shotgun-504299.html





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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