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I assume the lower pressure handling capability of BPE rifles is due to the strength of steel in the receiver and barrels, so that one cannot convert a BPE rifle to handle nitro cartridges in the same caliber just by adding a new set of barrels. That is, the relative weakness of the receiver steel cannot be overcome.

Is that a fair statement or does the truth lie somewhere in between?

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Thanks, but assuming the rifle and design are not strong enough for nitro, will a new set of barrels alone make it strong enough? (Of course I realize the cost of new barrels will easily be $15k plus). Is the depth of the rifling significant pressure wise? I know the weight is important and nitro barrels are significantly heavier.

I'm struggling to get at the fundamental question, because I don't know what it is.

The rifle I am thinking of is something like one of the Fraser hammerless doubles from around 1880.

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Thanks, but assuming the rifle and design are not strong enough for nitro, will a new set of barrels alone make it strong enough?

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Thanks, but assuming the rifle and design are not strong enough for nitro, will a new set of barrels alone make it strong enough? (Of course I realize the cost of new barrels will easily be $15k plus). Is the depth of the rifling significant pressure wise? I know the weight is important and nitro barrels are significantly heavier.

I'm struggling to get at the fundamental question, because I don't know what it is.

The rifle I am thinking of is something like one of the Fraser hammerless doubles from around 1880.

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I don't think that anyone would try to "upgrade" an 1880 double rifle to a nitro caliber. Basically your frame is iron, nothing like modern steel. In 1880 nitrocellulose wasn't even on the radar screen.

You haven't told us the original caliber and the nitro caliber you are considering.

Curl

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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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CptCurl

The rifle i am considering is a Fraser .450-400 3 1/4 BPE that is probably from about the same period as the 1891 Woodward on your website, possibly a bit later. (There was a nearly identical rifle in the Amoskeag April sale) Actually, it was the fact that the Woodward had been re-proofed with the original barrels that got me thinking about it in the first place. The Woodward is a gorgeous rifle by the way.

When I first began thinking about double rifles, it was a Holland pre-war sidelock in .375 flanged or 500/465 that I had to have. Then I started thinking about English and Continental boxlocks and finally decided the Fraser (Scottish of course) is the most appealing boxlock to my eye.

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I suppose I'm holding the "smoking gun."

Yes, my Woodward was put to nitro proof at some point in its existence and passed. In my view, does that stand as a green light to sally forth with a cartridge belt full of .450-400 3-1/4" NE cartridges with that rifle in hand? No. Not for me.

There is such a marked difference between that rifle and one designed for the nitro cartridge. The Woodward is light and petite. A proper nitro .450-400 is a big, heavy, robust rifle. You know it was designed for the punishment of the nitro round. The action is larger, the stock is beefier.

Would my Woodward explode if fired with a pair of nitro rounds? Dunno. We know it didn't when it went through the London Proof House for that trial. So what would I expect to happen if it were subjected to a steady diet of nitro rounds? I think in short order the barrels would come off face and the stock would likely crack or split. A work of art would thus be damaged or destroyed.

I fire nitro-for-black loads in my Woodward, and what a great joy it is! It just loves a 265 grain cast gas-check bullet propelled at the velocity of its original BP loading. As Marrakai says, this is a wonderful load for deer or elk; even black bear. It's easy on the shoulder and will not harm my beautiful Woodward in the slightest.

I have a big, robust Greener Facile Princeps Treble Wedge Fast double chambered in the .450-400 3-1/4" Nitro Express that I reach for when I want to pretend I'm chasing Jumbo.

To me, the London nitro proofs on my Woodward are simply superfluous. Interesting yes, but not instructive as to how the rifle should be used.

So thanks for putting the debate back in my lap. I had no idea my Woodward was central to your inquiry. Touche!

As an aside let me point out that Woodward made a number of these "Automatic" rifles chambered for the .303 British. In terms of chamber pressure, that round is way up there compared to other nitro express rounds. That may tell us the action can withstand the pressure. However, the modest recoil generated by the .303 isn't going to destroy the wood or a shooter's shoulder.

I think Woodward also chambered these in the .450 3-1/4" BPE. I would not dream of touching off a .450NE in one of those rifles.

Best,
Curl

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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Get a rifle you can shoot NfB loads in, either a 450 or 500 late black powder gun. They are a lot of fun to shoot, easy and cheap to load for once you do some reading, can take anything in North America and don't kick the crap out of you. They are the best of both worlds. I have three, a 500 3", 500#2 and a 577 3" and enjoy all three. You will most probably have to plan to reload as it allows you to find a load/bullet that works best in your rifle but it's part of the fun and no huge chore. Get Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" and read it a few times, particularly the chapter dealing with the NfB loads.
Best.

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