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cooch
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Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Hunting Snobs...
      #282271 - 12/05/16 06:50 PM

In tbe throes of an almost-entertaining Freakbook epic with some "hunters" who are trying to claim that it isn't "hunting" if you use a dog.

Forget history. Forget practicality. Forget anthropology.

Reminds me of nothing so much as certain stuff-shirted fops who insist that if you aren't fishing the RIGHT water, using the RIGHT flies ( dry of course) while wearing the RIGHT tweed and the RIGHT Old School Tie, then you aren't really fishing, old boy.

I'm thinking that there's a lot of insecurity there. People who have convinced themselves that hunting is acceptable as long as they claim that every kind of hunting that they don't do themselves, ain't hunting.

Yeah, Right!

I know a little bit about the kind of killing that isn't hunting,mans I'm damned if I will be lectured about it by people who are so anxious to be PC that they will throw fellow-hunters under the bus to do it.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
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Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: cooch]
      #282297 - 13/05/16 02:44 AM

Use of dogs or hounds always depends on the situation regarding whether it is sporting or not. JMO.

But for a lot of our game species and especially feral species, pretty much go for it. Use of pointers and the like really is a great aid for deer hunters if well trained. And hunting foxes, rabbits and hares always been part of the scene. Pigs and boar too.

Hunting many species of deer with large packs of dogs or hounds has often been considered unsporting, sambar being an exception. Then of course, hunting of deer WITH DOGS and horses has always been part of the hunt in many parts of Europe ... similar to fox hunting.

Not sure where all the tweed and old school tie comes into it, in Australia more likely a check fannel shirt and jeans would be the style of naysayers.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: NitroX]
      #282300 - 13/05/16 03:37 AM

I have hunted with dogs over my whole life since old Sue a fox terrier "burrow dog" showed me what a dog can do.

My old man ferreted non stop and old Sue would go to a burrow and tell you if a rabbit was home or not,saving the need to net up for sfa....she was never beaten either. Since those early days as a four year old being carried by my old man when I was too tired to walk I have been taught continually by my dogs.I like to think along the lines of "always trust your dog"

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: gryphon]
      #282304 - 13/05/16 05:05 AM

Yep JG's doggy friends are an incredible aid to hunting. Watching the dog and his reactions you find way more deer than walking alone.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: NitroX]
      #282308 - 13/05/16 08:12 AM

Quote:

in Australia more likely a check fannel shirt and jeans would be the style of naysayers.




Just the similarity between one group of arrogant fools, and another.

We can discuss what is "sporting", but that's a human concept and I've never heard animals discussing it. Does anyone really think that the animal predators worry about it? All they worry about is whether the next meal is there, and an easy meal beats a hard one every time.

"Fair Chase" is a concept that has some value.
1. When game is not unlimited, it provides a mechanism to reduce over-exploitation. Game is a public resource so there is an argument that it should be shared, not just grabbed in bulk by the first people who can - by any means.
2. It adds value. Hunting as we do it is not about meat, but about memories. Fair chase as a principle points us towards putting in effort and earning the animal, which creates better memories. What we work for, we value.
3. If you regard trophy hunting as some kind of dick-measuring exercise, instead of an indictator of personal effort, then you may want to ensure that the man against whom you are measuring yourself has played by some form of "rules".

Cougar have plenty of opportunity to get away and the hunting - particularly dry-ground hunting, is notoriously hard. It's sporting.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: cooch]
      #282359 - 14/05/16 04:27 AM

there is an old saying in my part of the world "you can hunt without guns but you can't without dogs"

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: lancaster]
      #282362 - 14/05/16 04:42 AM

quote: 3. If you regard trophy hunting as some kind of dick-measuring exercise, instead of an indicator of personal effort, then you may want to ensure that the man against whom you are measuring yourself has played by some form of "rules"EQuote

As recently said by Art in his Tur hunt thread about the dick swingers that get their beast THEIR way.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: gryphon]
      #282363 - 14/05/16 04:53 AM

Here is one of mine enjoying the view.We were in farmland heading to to bush line for a look at deer. He is actually watching a couple of cattle outlined on the third spur at a 1000 yards below that "could be deer"
They aren`t visible in this pic.
It was a great morning.

I went to deploy a game camera late arvo yesterday,the target wallow is in dense blackberry thickets with waist high sword grass in swamp water all around as well..thick as buggery.

I looked at the old dog as his head went up with that "definitely a deer in here boss" action.
I thought ah it must have moved off with all the noise made coming in and he is working on its bedded scent remains. Wrong!
He worked back and forth 25 yards from me,got around the berry bushes and then put a sambar hind out that had been laying doggo.Ah,that was good I thought.

Always trust your dog!



--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: gryphon]
      #282373 - 14/05/16 08:08 AM

I find their enthusiasm...... infectious.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: cooch]
      #282422 - 15/05/16 02:27 PM

Dogs are part of hunting. Depends how and when they are used and for what.

The tweedy comment I guess is from overseas comment from another forum. Different places, different rules. None of their business. I know I have taken a German hunter out hunting here, once and only once. Very opinionated and if it didn't fit with his "hunting rules" it wasn't on. Different places, different rules. I don't try to impose my rules and customs when in Europe, I try to fit in and live within their traditions and manners. The way good guests try.

Hunting ethics and fair chase? Hunting ethics make up what fair chase is. Different to each person? Yes can be. But RESPECT for the game/quarry is what is essential to hunting ethics.

In Australia we don't have many or long hunting traditions or a rich hunting culture. But worse is the complete gooses who say "anything goes". Usually the armchair and/or ratbag brigade in the field.

In SA we can virtually do anything that is not considered "cruel" (ie animal welfare). Spotlight deer for example. Not hunting in my opinion. But I would spotlight deer if they needed a lot of culling and reduction in numbers. Never consider a spotlighted deer a trophy.

Trophy hunting comment bove. No trophy is obtained through unfair means. Whatever that may entail. Of course opinions differ. But spotlighted trophies, shot from a helicopter, shot in a small enclosure, shot for the client sitting back in the camp mentioned in Ripp's thread, all that is not trophy hunting, it is merely trophy "collecting". Wankers.

Cooch has some amazing dogs. Dogs add to the pleasure of the hunt.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: NitroX]
      #282462 - 16/05/16 08:18 AM

Talking ethics.....

I know someone who has an amazing off-type sambar head on the wall. It was taken under the light and -because of this - he has never bothered to have it properly scored or entered on ant list.
At least he is honest enough to not pretend otherwise.

That is pretty much the point when it comes to trophy scoring systems. They tell us more about the species than they do about the hunters or the hunt. I look at such things as a of a good animal - what could have been a memorial to a great hunt is reduced to just a genetic oddity and a bit of luck. That's not something of which to be overly jealous.

From a completely different angle....
Most of the creatures that we hunt, have their defences tuned against hunters with muscles and teeth and claws. Their defences are NOT designed to defend against predators in camouflaged polarfleece who get their ability to kill from a lathe and a chemical factory - and who often attack from outside the range of the animal's awareness.

Hunting with hounds allows the prey to use its natural defences - speed, stamina, cunning - to the full against the speed and stamina of the pursuing pack.

Tell me how this is wrong and "unfair"?

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: cooch]
      #282467 - 16/05/16 09:23 AM

Q: Hunting with hounds allows the prey to use its natural defences - speed, stamina, cunning - to the full against the speed and stamina of the pursuing pack.EQ

Of course there is a certain amount of conjecture re this.
Against the pursuing pack,yes,against the man? Well the modern hound man in Vic is assisted by a slew of 'aids' as in vehicles,radios,gps collars/mapping etc and yes the deer do win many times,but then they eventually succumb especially when hammered week in week out

I have experienced it both ways,one with using some of the above,two on foot with a few of my own dogs. That`s pretty special too.

I must add that a certain Old Boy that has a pioneering name in the hound world lamented to me whilst we were sitting around his table not too long ago with a few words on modern hunting methods V the "way we HAD to do it then.

He wasn't entirely complimentary ha ha.

I do believe that

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Hunting Snobs... [Re: cooch]
      #282475 - 16/05/16 12:07 PM

Quote:

From a completely different angle....
Most of the creatures that we hunt, have their defences tuned against hunters with muscles and teeth and claws. Their defences are NOT designed to defend against predators in camouflaged polarfleece who get their ability to kill from a lathe and a chemical factory - and who often attack from outside the range of the animal's awareness.

Hunting with hounds allows the prey to use its natural defences - speed, stamina, cunning - to the full against the speed and stamina of the pursuing pack.

Tell me how this is wrong and "unfair"?



An example - hunting hog deer with hounds, the hog deer were known to drop dead from the exertion. From a reputable author and book perhaps "Deer of Australia" (/) if so the bible of deer hunting.

Other examples as well in varuous references as to why it is considered unfair to use coursing hounds nn various species.

I'm not a know it all expert and willing to take guidance from people more knwledgeable than I.

Why allow it on pigs and not eg on deer? Got to do with the 'nobility' of the beast. And people that can't see the difference are blind.

***

The first paragraph. Take kangaroos as an example. Where they are not shot at, they will stay maybe 50 to 100 metres away from a person. Try to get say in bow range and they always see you and hope another hundred metres away.

Where they are shot a lot at. Their defences are also very attuned, ad maybe the distance they keep to humans is more like 600 metres. This at least was mt experience on a NSW irrigated farm while hunting pigs. Those roos were damned wary. Were obviously shot at by every joker coming on the property. The farmer had asked us to shoot some.

The roo examples are daylight hunting, not spotlighting.

Animals adapt to man and modern technology.

But of course it is easiier to kill an animal with a modern rifle compared to a spear.


As to the title of this thread, maybe we should also start one "Hunting Bogans" and have a moan about them. That is a much easier discussiion.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Hunting Bogans ... [Re: NitroX]
      #282484 - 16/05/16 01:28 PM

"Deer are just a ffffing pest. Who gives a ffff! You guys go on and on about deer. Just ffffing shoot them and leave them to rot on the ground. Who gives a ffff!!!"

Anyone recognise the bogan? The sort of drivel is very recognisable. Here's a hint. Instead of "hunting" bogan, just think bogan, who doesn't actually hunt, and you will be spot on.

For some reason this whole thread reminds me on that place and the sort of drivel discussions that go on there.


***


BTW if you want someone who is very high and strong on hunting ethics, it is the other person who is commenting a lot on this thread. Very strong on hunting the right way.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Hunting Bogans ... [Re: NitroX]
      #282485 - 16/05/16 01:30 PM

Anything that reminds me of that toxic shithole gets me worked up.

Cooch, I'd rather see some good threads showing your wonderful dogs working.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: Hunting Bogans ... [Re: NitroX]
      #282509 - 17/05/16 08:35 AM

Heh.....

It's not hard to find specific examples of people hunting in "wrong" ways, regardless of what tools they use. I wasn't arguing that using guns, camo, trackers etc was wrong... only that those making certain claims were being two-faced.
And yes, I've heard the same comments about some of the tools now used for hound-hunting. They are usually made when some young bloke treats it like a video-game and misses a deer because he was too busy looking at his screen. You don't hear them so much when it comes to recovering the hounds.
I can easily see both sides of that particular coin.

There will always be such debates, a lot of them being based on personal preference. My point was always that personal preference does not translate into moral absolutes, unless you think that you are God. (In which case, we have the absolute right to laugh at and deride you.)

Yes.... animals do adapt. If they are repeatedly ambushed from cover, they spend more time I the open. If they are shot in the open, they become allergic to open spaces.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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cooch
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Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: Hunting Bogans ... [Re: cooch]
      #282510 - 17/05/16 08:38 AM

Back on topic.... It wasn't the bogans that I was talking about, but the people who yell "bogan" at everyone who uses methods other than theirs.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Hunting Bogans ... [Re: cooch]
      #282525 - 17/05/16 01:41 PM

"Yes.... animals do adapt. If they are repeatedly ambushed from cover, they spend more time I the open. If they are shot in the open, they become allergic to open spaces. "

One way you can tell a NZ canned hunt, is when it is on a tiny block of say 200 ha, high fenced. The client says his trophy hunt was sporting, there was lots of heavy cover. But he shot his trophy out in the open. Why definitely canned other than the obvious tiny block size? The animal was probably put out a day or a few days before the "hunt". Otherwise if on such a tiny block with constant clients chasing game, any wild animal will be nocturnal, hiding in deep cover by day and feeding by night.

"... does not translate into moral absolutes .."

Well I hope you never hunt in countries with long and deeply held hunting cultures and traditions, else you might get a big surprise ...

Peter, I hope you have some sort of a sense of humour. It is needed here on NE ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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cooch
.300 member


Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 192
Loc: Southern NSW
Re: Hunting Bogans ... [Re: NitroX]
      #282563 - 18/05/16 07:30 AM

John....

When I hunt in another country - or with other people in my own - I hunt as my hosts prefer. That is called being a good guest.

It has nothing to do with my position on this subject, which is far more flexible than those who have been annoying me lately.

Stalking is fine.
Stalking with a dog is fine.
Hounds are fine.
Shooting at long range is fine.
Shooting from a tree stand is fine.
Shooting over bait is fine.
Denning is fine.
Trapping us fine.

Shooting in a pen is "fine" as long as the shooter does not pretend that it was otherwise and it is not against the local laws. It is just no different from buying a sheep and killing it for the meat and skin.

As for a sense of humour. It's fine as long as it cuts both ways. One of the modern plagues is selective tolerance.

--------------------
"The only logical response to an animal that lives obsessed with avoiding capture is to chase it." - Jose Ortega y Gassett

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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Hunting Bogans ... [Re: cooch]
      #282570 - 18/05/16 08:00 AM




I cant get Leopard in a baited tree with a spotlight as oft done these days.?

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Hunting Bogans ... [Re: cooch]
      #282573 - 18/05/16 08:20 AM

Quote:

As for a sense of humour. It's fine as long as it cuts both ways. One of the modern plagues is selective tolerance.



Some people just can't get the message ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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