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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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Dr_Deer
.300 member

Reged: 23/02/09
Posts: 212
Loc: Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Kano]
#281750 - 30/04/16 12:27 PM

Even if you are hunting in a DG area, if the biggest animal you have on quota is a kudu why go armed for ele?

I've only made two trips to Africa, first was with a .375H&H for buff, second was with a .300Win for PG. Yes there were lions, ele & buff where I was hunting when armed with a mere .30 cal, but like most foreign hunters in Africa I had a PH with me and my daily rates were paying for him to lug a double around in case an ele decided they didn't like us.

Quote:

A cool, precise shot can go to Africa with a deer rifle and do just fine. I know more than one person who has racked up a dozen plains game kills with that number of shots from a .270 or a 7mm/08 or something of that nature. But that’s if everything goes to plan. If it doesn’t, you’ll wish you had a bigger gun. For me, the .338 is the ideal combination of maximum usable bullet velocity, bullet size, manageable recoil, and the ability to hit at longer (for Africa) ranges.

My concession to potential "long range" shot was taking my .300 Rather than my .270 for PG, the reality was that the shots were closer than I'd average on deer back home.

If you havent got DG on quota chances are you're packing the .375H&H for African cartridge nostalgia rather than ballistic necessity

Edited by Dr_Deer (30/04/16 12:33 PM)

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Dr_Deer]
#281769 - 30/04/16 08:46 PM

Quote:

Even if you are hunting in a DG area, if the biggest animal you have on quota is a kudu why go armed for ele?

I've only made two trips to Africa, first was with a .375H&H for buff, second was with a .300Win for PG. Yes there were lions, ele & buff where I was hunting when armed with a mere .30 cal, but like most foreign hunters in Africa I had a PH with me and my daily rates were paying for him to lug a double around in case an ele decided they didn't like us.

Quote:

A cool, precise shot can go to Africa with a deer rifle and do just fine. I know more than one person who has racked up a dozen plains game kills with that number of shots from a .270 or a 7mm/08 or something of that nature. But that’s if everything goes to plan. If it doesn’t, you’ll wish you had a bigger gun. For me, the .338 is the ideal combination of maximum usable bullet velocity, bullet size, manageable recoil, and the ability to hit at longer (for Africa) ranges.

My concession to potential "long range" shot was taking my .300 Rather than my .270 for PG, the reality was that the shots were closer than I'd average on deer back home.

If you havent got DG on quota chances are you're packing the .375H&H for African cartridge nostalgia rather than ballistic necessity

Each to their own..but ph's are not perfect as well..which is why sadly several get killed each year..I prefer to be responsible for my own well being versus putting it in the trust and care of another..kinda the same way I keep a gun in my nightstand. Law enforcement is around but prefer to handle it myself..

As to on quota..the elephant or buff doesn't give 2 shits as to what u have on quota, given the chance they will come..

Again..just my opinion and experience

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (01/05/16 07:53 AM)

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Dr_Deer
.300 member

Reged: 23/02/09
Posts: 212
Loc: Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Ripp]
#281789 - 01/05/16 10:39 AM

An interesting opinion, and keen to hear more of your experiences.
My own would indicate that shooting and killing a buff or ele because you perceive them as a threat even though you dont have one on quota, and or the PH doesnt have any left on quota for his concession, and in some countries such as Zambia ele is on the non shoot list, you're going to have a lot of explaining to do to the relevant wildlife authorities.
Zimbos might have the leeway of writing eles off as "non trophy" but others dont have that luxury.

I havent been keeping tabs on PH deaths for very long but I believe the fatalities in the last 12 months have been due to an elephant, whilst hunting elephant, and by anti poaching patrol.
If we go back a few years there have been a number of PHs / trackers getting shot in the back by clients armed with DG rifles on DG follow ups, from memory 1 incident was on a cat hunt, not sure about the others. Hard to say if lack of familiarity with the rifle they were carrying was a factor at play but it does spring to mind.

I'm not advocating taking your deer rifle, donning a pith helmet with matching white linen suit and leaving all situational awareness in the hands of your PH, but you dont need a 300g bullet when a 150g create a better wound canal given the low resistance it will meet in the flesh of smaller PG. Take the rifle you are familiar with and able to get onto target and on sticks as fast as possible. After all a shot in the air from a deer rifle will probably have the same ability to change the mind of recalcitrant DG, just dont tell the ele your bluffing

Of course you could take two rifles, and then constantly worry which one you left on the truck, a problem that can be overcome by never venturing far from the truck....

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Dr_Deer]
#281791 - 01/05/16 12:39 PM

Your examples are those you hear or read about..what about the ones ..10 times the numbr you don't read about??

I personally know 4 individuals or ph's that have been severely damaged or killed in the past 5 years..one was as simple as leaving the truck to follow a track a bit off the road..wounded buff come out and killed him..

As I said earlier..do what you wish...but I trust myself much more than someone else.

As to a lot of explaining.. .at least I
will still have that option..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (01/05/16 04:13 PM)

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Dr_Deer
.300 member

Reged: 23/02/09
Posts: 212
Loc: Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Ripp]
#281795 - 01/05/16 05:00 PM

Along with not trusting the PH to protect you from DG do you also take your own antivenin for black mamba bite and a full first aid kit? Or do you just go with the flow and enjoy Africa?

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Dr_Deer]
#281796 - 01/05/16 05:13 PM

Quote:

Along with not trusting the PH to protect you from DG do you also take your own antivenin for black mamba bite and a full first aid kit? Or do you just go with the flow and enjoy Africa?

Never said I didn't trust them...merely said I hv as much faith in my ability to protect myself as I do in them..big difference ..no need to get your panties in a wad

As in most of what I have seen someone goes on safari in Africa a time or two and they become experts...I am no expert..nor are you...this is my opinion..you have yours..so keep doing it your way and I will do it mine..we will see how it works out in the end..

There are people that have hunted Africa dozens or over 100 times..the opinions I have received are more in line with my opinion..period.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (01/05/16 05:48 PM)

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Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4913
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Dr_Deer]
#281797 - 01/05/16 05:18 PM

I do not have Dr Deer or Ripps African experience or knowledge but from my one hunt for DG I do know how quickly Buff and Ele can appear from nowhere. I for one would use a calibre and ammo capable of dealing with DG if hunting in DG country. Me it would be a powerful 35cal and Hydros as mentioned, 9.3X62 or 64 or a 338Win/RUM also with hydros. Might not be legal but if you have no choice, better to have it than not have it.

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Dr_Deer
.300 member

Reged: 23/02/09
Posts: 212
Loc: Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Rule303]
#281800 - 01/05/16 05:47 PM

Hey Ripp, no panties to get in a wad here as I'm a great believer in free balling - the camp staff do laundry every day afterall!

For game up to the size of kudu I'd rather something 8mm or smaller that I can recite the trajectory figures for off the top of my head rather than needing drop charts etc, a trigger that breaks when I expect it to, and an action and safety that I'm thoroughly familiar with. If upping to Roan etc I might take a sambar (moose) rifle with a bonded soft.

Depends on your outlook on life - if I find myself too close to an ele whilst focusing at ground level hunting bushbuck in a riverine thicket and get stomped on I view it as a product of my time being up, not because I forgot to pack my .375

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Dr_Deer]
#281805 - 01/05/16 08:40 PM

I have to agree with Ripp on this one. I have the opportunity to go over and hunt in Namibia at no expense other than air fares and any local charges. The tricky part is trying to get the time to do it. All the animals that I can hunt will be end of concession plains game however I will be taking a 375 and if I can afford it something bigger as well. A 375 H&H with 235 grain bullets is flat shooting enough for most situations and if things turn nasty unexpectedly one can quickly whack in some 300 grain solids carried in a small pouch. While most likely there will be no trouble it is nice to have the ability to defend yourself if need be, as he does have buffalo and elephant on the land that he hunts.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Ahmed577
.333 member

Reged: 13/06/13
Posts: 327
Loc: Western Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#281810 - 01/05/16 10:10 PM

375h&h is the caliber. There is no debate. Finished. Debate should be around a gun you can carry and handle well. 10 or 20 shots is an African Safari hunt. 1 2 or 3 shots a day. The right gun can make a caliber that is not normally in your comfort zone quite pleasant to use.

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MarkR
.333 member

Reged: 29/07/07
Posts: 296
Loc: NW Vic. Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Ahmed577]
#281930 - 05/05/16 07:49 PM

We are off in 2 days time headed for Namibia and plainsgame. This time around I am taking my heathen 9.3x62 with me.
It will be wearing a Leica 1-6.3 scope.

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larcher
.416 member

Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: MarkR]
#281943 - 06/05/16 05:19 AM

I like all these differences of opinion. I never was in Africa in no DG places, so I used my 375. No doubt that for PG I'd prefer a 300 Win. But I want to travel light and the 375 is the perfect meedle of the road rifle with a flat trajectory,as good on elephant as on duiker. Marginally in RSA or Namibia there are places devoided of eles or buffs wher light calibers (those we use home) are perfect.Pergaps eland is a heavy critter and at least a 300 is required?

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: larcher]
#281948 - 06/05/16 06:28 AM

MarkR, very nice rifle, looks like a Model 70 ?

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4913
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: MarkR]
#281962 - 06/05/16 01:07 PM

I hope you break a leg

Seriously, good hunting Mark.

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MarkR
.333 member

Reged: 29/07/07
Posts: 296
Loc: NW Vic. Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Rule303]
#281978 - 06/05/16 08:29 PM

Yeah thanks Greg. It's all go now

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MarkR
.333 member

Reged: 29/07/07
Posts: 296
Loc: NW Vic. Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#281979 - 06/05/16 08:30 PM

Quote:

MarkR, very nice rifle, looks like a Model 70 ?

Waidmannsheil.

Yep, that's why the "heathen" remark ...

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: MarkR]
#281983 - 06/05/16 09:44 PM

Nothing wrong with a Model 70, I have four. There would not been an animal on earth that hasn't been taken with a Model 70, and they can be turned into fine custom rifles such as yours. They are fast to cycle especially post 66 models when they fitted they long anti-bind rail and they have the best safety ever in the best position. Tho original over-ride trigger is the best and most field serviceable of all triggers and the separate magazine allows for easy conversions to other cartridges. They have their problems as well such as a crappy floor plate and some of the latter New Haven Models can be a poorly finished, however just like a military Mauser they can be turned into very fine custom rifles. While their history isn't quite as long as a Mauser, Mannlicher or Lee-Speed it is still pretty good starting in 1936. Don't worry about being a heathen, you have a fine rifle in a great cartridge. I am currently building a Model 70 in 9.3x57 for my colleague as a sort of retirement and thank you gift, it is coming along nicely.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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starman
.275 member

Reged: 23/08/05
Posts: 53
Loc: nsw

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
#282010 - 07/05/16 03:31 PM

Quote:

Along with not trusting the PH to protect you from DG do you also take your own antivenin for black mamba bite
and a full first aid kit? Or do you just go with the flow and enjoy Africa?

Contradictions in hunters are not uncommon, so not surprising they might well consider an extra gun as potentially life saving ,
but then think the idea of providing for themselves some additional potentially life saving snake antivenin or aid kit as not important,
For people that find themselves trudging remote areas of a 3rd world nation, I find that a narrow mindset.

Currently reality is that Africa is facing a sharp rising crisis regarding critical supplies of quality snake antivenin. Stocks of Fav-Afrique,
produced by French company Sanofi , produced its last and final batch in 2014 with no more production to continue. It is used for 10
types of snake, and African stocks expected to expire by mid 2016. A vial can cost anywhere from US$200-$500 in Sub-Sahara Africa region.
Its has a general shelf life of approx. 36 months, but requires storage in the +2 - +8 deg. C.

There is also what seems a promising freeze-dried form of antivenin serum called Antivipmyn Africa, which can be stored/preserved
at room temps, potentially allowing it to be much more commonly available in remote areas.

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gryphon
.450 member

Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: starman]
#282011 - 07/05/16 04:03 PM

I wonder how our Aussie polyvalent antivenom would go on cobras/mambas etc

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.

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Kano
.300 member

Reged: 09/07/03
Posts: 166
Loc: East Africa

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: gryphon]
#282021 - 08/05/16 12:33 AM

One vial of antivenom is seldom sufficient. Then you need to cater for potential anaphylactic shock when you administer it, and you need to have the right antivenom at hand, and you need to keep it refrigerated (and have it close by, remember...).

Complicated.

In addition, I have very rarely heard of someone dying of snakebite on safari. Actually never heard of a client bitten to death, although I'm quite sure that it must have happened.

I am much more worried about getting shot by a client, which unfortunately happens relatively often............. I have witnessed ADs and hair-rising behaviour quite a number of times, luckily without bad consequences so far - but enough to keep one on high alert whenever he's around unknown people toting a hunting rifle outdoors.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26510
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Kano]
#282024 - 08/05/16 01:25 AM

As a rule, I never permitted a client to chamber a round until it was absolutely necessary - as in stationary right beside me or in front of me. But then, that was only in grizzly country, not really dangerous game, most of the time.

Having one of them walking/stalking behind me with a loaded rifle was not a risk I was willing to take with 9 out of 10 hunters.

I have not guided very many hunters in total, however only 2 out of the bunch were proficient & experienced enough hunters themselves to be allowed a loaded rifle, where I could then concentrate on the task at hand, rather than the direction their muzzles were pointed.

Even with an unloaded rifle, most of them would unconsciously slip a finger inside the trigger guard - imagine those trusted with a round in the chamber - and they are behind you - highly excited, clumbsy and ill-trained.

Of course, no one here would do that, but you understand the caution necessary.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
.375 member

Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: Kano]
#282026 - 08/05/16 01:37 AM

I had great success with my .375 H&H. I was handicapped in no way. Distance or too large a caliber. 4 shots and four game animals in various terrain. Large old Impala, good old warthog, red hartebeest at 200 meters and a large stallion zebra. Of course all shots were well placed, 300 gr Woodleigh SP RN.
I would have been equally armed for this game with my 9.3x62 with 286 gr similar bullet. All other shot were no more than 100 + or minus meters.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39245
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: 88MauSporter]
#282049 - 08/05/16 07:06 AM

I am more concerned about dangerous snake bite in Australia than I have ever been in Africa. So it doesn't really rate. I know when walking in high grass where I can't see where my feet are going in Africa I have thought I would never do this in Australia ...

I have carried a small first aid kit in my daypack. Pressure bandages are useful for snakebite.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Waidmannsheil
.400 member

Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2377
Loc: Melbourne Australia

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: NitroX]
#282057 - 08/05/16 09:18 AM

Either 9.3x62 or 9.3x64 would work just as well as a 375 H&H however as many countries only allow a 375 as their minimum I personally would choose the latter as there are no hassles than with the authorities if you have to use it on something bigger. I personally would rather take a 9.3.

Waidmannsheil.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Rule303
.416 member

Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4913
Loc: Woodford Qld

Re: The BEST plains game rifle of all??? [Re: gryphon]
#282059 - 08/05/16 09:53 AM

Quote:

I wonder how our Aussie polyvalent antivenom would go on cobras/mambas etc

I don't know about Mambas but Tiger Snake antivenin will work for Cobras, even when out of date by a while. Worked for a bloke in the US who was hit multiple times by a Cobra. Kept him alive for the few days it took to get the proper gear.

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