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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Cast Bullets
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ducmarc
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black powder .303
      #281563 - 26/04/16 12:26 PM

What was the orgianal load for the black powder .303? Not really going to paper patch at this time.figuring on a lee mold. Need to cast the bore to figure what sizer to use wonder what weight bullet and charge

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Huvius
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: ducmarc]
      #281572 - 26/04/16 11:22 PM

I have read that the original BP 303 British used a compressed pellet of 70gr. black powder and a 215gr. jacketed bullet. Must have been VERY compressed to get that charge in the case!
The cylindrical case was apparently charged with the compressed powder prior to necking just as it was with the cordite charge.
They also had Metford rifling which would be important as small bore BP rifles foul terribly.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: Huvius]
      #281597 - 27/04/16 10:41 AM

Correct - 70 gr. 'pellet' was inserted into the straight case, a jute wad placed on top of the powder, the case neck (I think) then the FMJ cupro-nickle jacketed bullet seated and crimped.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ducmarc
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: DarylS]
      #281693 - 29/04/16 12:57 PM

Would I need a wad and is this 2f? Figure on buy some dedicated cases to separate them from my p14 loads who makes the largest capacity cases.

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Iowa_303s
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: ducmarc]
      #281705 - 29/04/16 09:30 PM

The difference between case volume with BP will be insignificant.
Since making/using a compressed pellet is outside the normal reloading methods you will not be able to get 70 grains into a 303 case.
If it were me I would start with 3f and would possibly try 4f.

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Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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Huvius
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #281706 - 29/04/16 09:56 PM

I think that you won't find this to be a very satisfying experiment.
Not trying to put you off - I may even try this myself but my expectation is that you will not be able to fit enough powder in the case to get the velocities close to smokeless and fouling is going to be a bear.
Maybe try a roundball or pistol bullet with a wad and grease cookie in the neck first and see how it goes.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: Huvius]
      #281720 - 30/04/16 02:21 AM

A .303 case might hold 50gr. to 55gr. at max with a bullet seated over black powder that is compressed 1/10", which is normal. This compression is done with a plunger, to the bullet.

You would not NEED a wad, perhaps, but any .303 cast bullet I know of, does not hold enough black powder lube to be able to keep the fouling soft. They have only 2 grooves normally, rounded and of smokeless powder design. BP lube grooves are multiple, wide and square to hold more lube.

On top of the powder, you would likely NEED a lube wad due to this, which will cut back on your powder capacity even further.

I am not sure you WANT to try compressing black powder. I would attempt it.

People who over compress black powder in BP ctgs. usually are not any where near the winner's circle as overly compressed black powder charges do not shoot well with CAST bullets. Jacketed bullets are something else.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ducmarc
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: DarylS]
      #281831 - 02/05/16 12:03 PM

Let me add a little information its a no1mk2 with a Medford barrel the lees speed I acquired from rpeck. Wanted a load that it with something as not to beat it to death.it is 120yrs old.thought may run black powder and load separately from my other .303s since medfords went extinct as soon as jacketed smokless came out.still haven't slugged it yet though.will try to do that tomorrow.

--------------------
'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Iowa_303s
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: ducmarc]
      #281832 - 02/05/16 12:58 PM

At the transision from black to smokeless, Medford rifling was found to not hold up well to the extremly hot gases and erosive nature of the then new cordite powder.
Today the best way to treat an old rifle gently is to use a cast bullet propelled to a moderate velocity using a modern smokeless powder.
A 220 grain .303 bullet cast from an alloy of 50% wheel weights +2% tin and 50% pure lead driven to 1950 fps with 39 grains of H4350 will take deer very effectively and not wear out your bore.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"

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DarylSModerator
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #281834 - 02/05/16 01:10 PM

X2
Matt - that is excellent advice & it will bypass having to clean bottle necked cases of BP fouling, as well as possible damage to the bore by not cleaning it completely.

A powder such as Varget or better yet, H4895 would also be good ones to try.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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ducmarc
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: DarylS]
      #281865 - 03/05/16 12:52 PM

Have plenty of 4350 which I like for several calibers.thought a big heavy bullet might work. Thanks for all the info

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'killed by death' Lemmy.. ' boil the dog ' Elvis Manywounds "my best friend is my magnum forty four" hank willams the third.

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Brithunter
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: ducmarc]
      #282180 - 10/05/16 09:35 PM

I tried loading Black Powder in the 303 for use in an original 303 ME carbine. After a couple of shots the cartridges refused to chamber due to fouling.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: Brithunter]
      #282194 - 11/05/16 03:02 AM

That would be frustrating, for sure. Happened to me with my first Sharps.

The .303 BP ctgs. would have to have all full diameter bullet measurements inside the case. With black powder ctgs. throat fouling buildup will prevent too large a bullet from entering. Also, if the case does not seal the chamber area (obturate to seal) the fouling back-flow can impinge on the case chambering as well.

I am not aware of any available cast bullet designs for the .303 specifically designed for black powder. Black powder designed bullet moulds have mulitiple square bottomed grooves to hold as much lube as possible, or are paper patched designs meant to use a lube cookie underneath. The lack of lubrication to keep the fouling soft for subsequent loads, prevents repeated firing without wiping/cleaning the chamber and bore out, sometimes every shot- depending on the load and bullet.

The round/ctg.(.303) may have been designed as a black powder cartridge originally, but for black powder as loaded today, it is a lousy design. Better designs have longer necks to contain long grooved bullets & lots of lube - as in some of the English BP rounds, 450/400 for instance, or even the .43 or 11mm Mauser ctg. A lube cookie helps with paper patched bullets, as well as a "moist burning" powder, quite unlike the available black powder today.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: DarylS]
      #282464 - 16/05/16 08:58 AM

Daryl - The .303 British (military) was originally designed for smokeless (Cordite)

IIRC the only reason for the Mark I/II Black powder rounds was a problem with the supply of smokeless cartridges

For interest, in order to get the cordite in, it was loaded into the straight case, then the case bottleneck formed with the cordite in it

Tony

Edited by TH44 (16/05/16 08:59 AM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: TH44]
      #282465 - 16/05/16 09:11 AM

tks Tony. However, the fact remains, with BP today, it is a poor round, barely better than a .32/40, IF you use a heavy bullet.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lonewulf
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: DarylS]
      #282470 - 16/05/16 10:43 AM

According to this site, the original Metford rifled .303 (utilizing a 215 grain projectile in front of 70 grains of compressed BP) had a MV of 1850 fps.


http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.303+British.html

Edited by lonewulf (16/05/16 10:44 AM)

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TH44
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: lonewulf]
      #282472 - 16/05/16 11:25 AM

Lonewolf - I have seen several sites and have books which give that info, which is technically correct

My recollection (Spent the last half hour fruitlessly looking at the internet and my library) was that when Vieille developed "Poudre B" in 1884 and introduced it in the 8mm Lebel rifle in 1886 with a greatly improved performance it was clear to all that smokeless was the way forward and Rubin developed the round for that

The Standard British propellant of the time was Black Powder so that was used as a stopgap until Cordite was available

All interesting stuff

TH44

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DarylSModerator
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: lonewulf]
      #282500 - 17/05/16 12:24 AM

Quote:

According to this site, the original Metford rifled .303 (utilizing a 215 grain projectile in front of 70 grains of compressed BP) had a MV of 1850 fps.


http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.303+British.html



Interesting, I had thought the Full Patch BP load produced 1,950fps - memories sometimes get fuzzy. I read about the BP load some 35 to 40 years ago - my excuse for poor memory.

A 50gr. to 55gr. charge, about all you could get into the case today using a drop tube & then compressing the powder, might give 1,300fps with a 215gr. cast or jacketed, maybe a bit more - about like a .32/40 with a 170gr. cast bullet and 40gr. It will be interesting to see what speeds are actually produced. Mine quoted, are just a guess.

Not sure about their claim to a 450gr. bullet for the British Muzzle Loading "Musket". The Pritchert Bullet that their military used in the .58 Enfields were 560gr., with a box-wood plug in the hollow base. The rifle models of 1863, the lst Enfield, a short 24" barreled rifle may have used the lighter bullet - THAT I do not know. The 2 previous Enfields, the 3-band 1853 (39" bl) and 2-band 1858 (32"bl) used the heavier Pritchert bullet.

Contrary to that link, those Enfield ML's were not MUSKETS, they were rifles - nor were they "rifled" muskets. They are & were rifles - as originally made - never being a musket (smoothbore)to start with. They pretty much replaced the long outdated Bess, but no Bess parts were used on them.

Rifled muskets were muskets originally, as in some years such as 1822 and 1842 in particular - originally .69 cal. muskets, the 22 a flintlock and the 42, the last cap-lock musket and maybe some other US muskets still having "enough barrel wall thickness for rifling. Those were subsequently rifled (of .008" progressive depth, (but true bore), from muzzle to breech, like the British Enfields) under govt. contract so they'd shoot an "issued" hollow based "Minnie 'Ball' of 730gr. weight using 70gr. of powder with greater accuracy & longer range than the muskets originally could handle - thus THOSE are/were "rifled" muskets.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lonewulf
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Re: black powder .303 [Re: DarylS]
      #282511 - 17/05/16 08:51 AM



Hi Daryl

It's my understanding that the term 'rifled musket' was simply a transitional name applied to that group of military firearms that entered service in the 1850s and 1860s as replacements for the older smooth bore muskets. These weapons were typically a mix of purpose built rifles and re-barreled 'muskets'. In the case of the latter, the re-barreling was done as a standard exercise in military cost-cutting. Not unsurprisingly, the firearms of this transitional era were/are often described as rifled-muskets, although, as you point out, a rifle is a rifle and a musket is, in reality, a smooth bore.


Not too sure about the grain weight of the projectiles used in the 1853 pattern rifles. I haven't shot one of these in over 25 years but I'm fairly sure we used 450 grain projectiles (among other things) in our Short Enfields back in the day, however, I couldn't tell you now if they were dropped from a traditional or modernized .577 mould.

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