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Rell
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Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do?
      #280461 - 07/04/16 08:05 AM

Gentlemen,

I have a Weatherby Mark 5 Ultralightweight SMOA in 270 Winchester. It shoots like el crapo. I have had a few Weatherby rifles and some where rock stars and others lounge lizards. This one is a lizard.

Weatherby says it meets it's 1 inch garuanty but only with 140gr Sierra match kings .... Everything else is 2.25 MOA. Not a great hunting bullet to say the least.

My question is ....what do I do with it?

I like the action, stock and general form but do I rebarrel in 270 Win, rebarrel in something else or just sell it down the road as scrap for someone else's project?

I already have a couple of 06 derivatives.
-35 Whelen Ruger #1
-270 Win GMA takedown
-400 Whelen same GMA takedown
-338-06 Weatherby ULW sort on loan to my dad


Any genius would be appreciated.

THX

Rell

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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LesLeeSpeed
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Reged: 14/11/13
Posts: 223
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Rell]
      #280462 - 07/04/16 10:43 AM

Hi,
Why not rebarrel it in 25-06 or 280AI, or 7x64 as you already have a 270 in another rifle.
that way you have the action that you like, and you haven't sold a pig in a poke to someone else, although, as a hunting rifle for deer or hogs, 2" is more than good enough out to about 250 yds.
Just my thoughts
LesLeeSpeed


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Rule303
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Reged: 05/07/09
Posts: 4896
Loc: Woodford Qld
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: LesLeeSpeed]
      #280465 - 07/04/16 11:42 AM

Or you can play their game and place signs about how badly Weatherby's shoot outside gun stores in your area, take photos and send them to Weatherby. Also post on their social network pages including how poorly they are at looking after customers. Certainly their barrel manufacturer wont like this.

Or sell it and move on.


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DarylS
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Rule303]
      #280471 - 07/04/16 02:06 PM

WTBY Mark 5's are q usually quite valuable. I would think a re-barrel in anything but a normal calibre might not help with the value, but to re-barrel it in a normal Mark 5 calibre could be a good idea.
I don't see a .257 WTBY in the list.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1652
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: DarylS]
      #280481 - 07/04/16 05:02 PM

+1 on the .257 idea. It's similar in role to hte .270 and won't be a beast if you build it into an ultra light again

--------------------
.


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Ash]
      #280486 - 07/04/16 08:00 PM

OP said it is a 270 WIN, not a 270 WEATHERBY, 257 Weatherby might be more work than would be worthwhile...

DC


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Postman
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Loc: Canada
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #280489 - 07/04/16 09:02 PM

In my humble experience, the Weatherby ultralight weights really suck!!!! I've had many Weatherbys over the years but generally find accuracy less than I would like to see in a premium off the shelf rifle.

The most aggregiuos case was a Weatherby varmintmaster in 7mm-08 with the factory Krieger Criterion barrel.
What I did to turn it in to an absolutely incredible tack driver was to free float the barrel. I carefully and meticulously used my Dremel tool to remove the two raised lumps inside the tip of the forend that Weatherby uses to add forend pressure to the barrel. Next, I rebedded the action by using epoxy at the action to stock contact point to raise the height of the front of the action to add a slight tilt to the barrel to ensure clearance from the stock forend. It is somewhat sacrilegious to rebed a rifle already equipped with an aluminum bedding block, but it is every bit as sacrilegious forvWeatherby to ruin an otherwise wonderful rifle by building rifles with forend pressure on the barrel and screwing up what could otherwise be a great AND accurate rifle. After my surgical procedure was complete, this rifle was a fantastic shooter and I kept it until I wore out the barrel after several thousand rounds shooting 1000 yard F class matches.

Funny enough, about two years after I did this, Weatherby announced their free floated Accumark lineup. Lo and behold, they free float those barrels, contrary to their traditional practice of using forend pressure.

Now, after that long winded rendition of my Weatherby tinkering, I shall get to the point of this post: I have had two Ultralights, both in .257 Weatherby, and tried the free float magic on both with disasterous results. Both rifles went from a ~1+ MOA rifle to one barely capable of throwing loose shotgun patterns. So, fortunately, before using epoxy, I would use a shim under the front action lug, just to be sure of the results I'd achieve, so it was relatively simple to turn them both back into a forend pressure rifle. Interestingly enough, what I've also discovered, was that both rifles were very respectable shooters when shooting from a cold barrel. One shot on the target, then wait a half hour, then shoot again one shot, and the rifles were sub MOA. Heaven help me if for the second shot there was any barrel heat, as the warmer the barrel got from the time the first shot was taken, groups opened up. I suspect that whippy noodle thin barrel is the cause of my consternation.

I now have pared down my Weatherby stash to 3: A .340 Accumark, a .458 Lott DG, and a .257 Ultramark. The Accumark is very accurate, easily sub MOA, with the DG and Ultramark around the 1" level of accuracy. I didn't try the free float on either the DG or the Ultramark. The accuracy level is sufficient for hunting, so I've left 'em both unmolested.

Edited by Postman (07/04/16 09:08 PM)


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Ripp
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Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Postman]
      #280490 - 07/04/16 09:27 PM

Poatman

I tried 5 new out of the box Weatherby rifles in .257 caliber years ago,,NONE would shoot to the level I was looking for..I finally built one myself using a Remington titanium action and Hart barrel..liked it so much I built a second one for backup..both tack drivers..

While I agree with you in that if you wait a long time the group gets better,I think it must be even more than the thin barrel. The reason I say this is I have other "customs" that I can shoot 3 fairly fast and still get a very nice group..have never had a Weaterby do that..in none of my lightweight attempts..I also tried 2 in .280 Remington caliber..they both sucked as well..while I know others have had great luck with them it has not been the case with me

BTW--I was able to try out the new rifles as I have a very good friend who is a dealer for them..

If it were me I would re-barrel or dump it...agree with Daryl..257 Weaterby is an incredible caliber..and anything you can kill with a .270 can be killed with a .257..including cape buffalo per Roy himself..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Postman
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Posts: 846
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Ripp]
      #280493 - 07/04/16 09:49 PM

Quote:

Poatman

I tried 5 new out of the box Weatherby rifles in .257 caliber years ago,,NONE would shoot to the level I was looking for..I finally built one myself using a Remington titanium action and Hart barrel..liked it so much I built a second one for backup..both tack drivers..

While I agree with you in that if you wait a long time the group gets better,I think it must be even more than the thin barrel. The reason I say this is I have other "customs" that I can shoot 3 fairly fast and still get a very nice group..have never had a Weaterby do that..in none of my lightweight attempts..I also tried 2 in .280 Remington caliber..they both sucked as well..while I know others have had great luck with them it has not been the case with me

BTW--I was able to try out the new rifles as I have a very good friend who is a dealer for them..

If it were me I would re-barrel or dump it...agree with Daryl..257 Weaterby is an incredible caliber..and anything you can kill with a .270 can be killed with a .257..including cape buffalo per Roy himself..

Ripp




Yes! Therein lies my absolute consternation with those infernal Weatherby rifles!!! The stock shape fits me well, but the sloppy accuracy is is unforgivable in such an expensive rifle. The skinny creepy triggers are an utter abomination as well. I would lean toward dumping it. The Sako Finnlights also suffer from less than stellar accuracy, but are a damn sight better than the Weatherbys. Seems the only way to get a super light rifle that shoots really well is to go custom, or possibly a Blaser K95 if one could see their way to an extremely expensive single shot.


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DarylS
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Ripp]
      #280521 - 08/04/16 04:17 AM

Quote:

Poatman

I tried 5 new out of the box Weatherby rifles in .257 caliber years ago,,NONE would shoot to the level I was looking for..I finally built one myself using a Remington titanium action and Hart barrel..liked it so much I built a second one for backup..both tack drivers..

While I agree with you in that if you wait a long time the group gets better,I think it must be even more than the thin barrel. The reason I say this is I have other "customs" that I can shoot 3 fairly fast and still get a very nice group..have never had a Weaterby do that..in none of my lightweight attempts..I also tried 2 in .280 Remington caliber..they both sucked as well..while I know others have had great luck with them it has not been the case with me

BTW--I was able to try out the new rifles as I have a very good friend who is a dealer for them..

If it were me I would re-barrel or dump it...agree with Daryl..257 Weaterby is an incredible caliber..and anything you can kill with a .270 can be killed with a .257..including cape buffalo per Roy himself..

Ripp




That's right - Cape Buffalo!!!!! - BUT - like Weatherby himself, you have to shoot it in the hip so the HYDROSTATIC SHOCK can do it's work, killing the buffalo.

However, when you have the picture taken with the PH & his rifle leaning up against the leg, please cover up the 2 .470 Nitro holes in the beast's shoulder - Roy should have, but didn't think of it, I guess. Yeah - I saw that addvert with the .257's gouge in the hide of the buff's left hip with Roy pointing at it, and the 2 holes the PH put in the shoulder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: DarylS]
      #280522 - 08/04/16 04:29 AM

What kind of showboating door knob would shoot a Cape buffalo with a BB gun? Yup, the master showman, Roy W. himself!!!! I love the .257 bee, but I reserve it for skinny runt whitetails and caribou where it is much better suited. My one and only cape buff was perforated with 7, count 'em 7!!! .570 grain .500NE flat point solids before he quit. I'm not surprised to hear about the .470 perforations in the esteemed Mr Weatherby's famous .257 buff..... That makes sense.

BTW: no disrespect intended for Roy. He was a master salesman and a gifted businessman. I just don't buy into the high velocity hydrostatic shock theories he loved to espouse. Like in hot rod muscle cars, the only thing that beats cubic inches, is more cubic inches!!


Edited by Postman (08/04/16 04:34 AM)


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Rell
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Reged: 03/12/04
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Loc: Oyster Bay, NY, USA
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Postman]
      #280543 - 08/04/16 08:58 AM

It is the little Mark 5 in 270 Winchester, I don't think it can be opened up for a 257 Weatherby.

I'm pretty upset, it's the new SUB MOA supposedly from the Custom shop. Very disapoonting.

Maybe a 240 Weatherby?

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
Posts: 1274
Loc: Queensland
Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Rell]
      #280554 - 08/04/16 12:25 PM

Contact Weatherby again and tell them you are still not happy with it, and Ask them what can they do for you ??? worth a try ,if they are any good, they might at least work with you ,to rebarrel it or something ? Second ,rebarrel it with a heavier high quality barrel 270 .You could rebarrel it to a 257 ,but then you have to get a gunsmith to open the bolt face etc etc ,more $$$$ and providing he does it properly .or sell it, or trade it on something better .

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Postman
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Posts: 846
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #280559 - 08/04/16 01:29 PM

I've looked long and hard at the Weatherby rifle in a standard cartridge but never took the plunge. I did have one once in .240 Weatherby though. I absolutely loved that little gem of a cartridge, and I was enamoured with the action as well. The rifle shot ok from what I can recall. I'd think that financially you might be best off sending this one down the road, but if you like the concept, maybe go for a custom barrel, 'cause I'm having a really hard time believing you'll ever find accuracy happiness in an Ultralight with a stock Weatherby noodle barrel. To tell the truth I'd never considered rebarreling any of my Weatherby rifles, given the limited availability of both quality barrels and talented smiths (long wait times and cost) in Canada, but maybe a good Lilja, Kreiger, or Hart barrel in .240 Weatherby might be a really interesting proposition! I believe that the ultralight concept is a good one, but it must be able to shoot accurately when all is said and done. Going for a non fluted standard profile barrel will add weight though, so that would need to be considered. Also, free floating is your friend. In the ultralights, there isn't too much bulk or stiffness in the forend to permit a great deal of Dremel work...... Something to also weigh in to the discussion.

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Homer
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Posts: 3081
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #280614 - 09/04/16 09:32 AM

Quote:

Contact Weatherby again and tell them you are still not happy with it, and Ask them what can they do for you ??? worth a try ,if they are any good, they might at least work with you ,to rebarrel it or something ? Second ,rebarrel it with a heavier high quality barrel 270 .You could rebarrel it to a 257 ,but then you have to get a gunsmith to open the bolt face etc etc ,more $$$$ and providing he does it properly .or sell it, or trade it on something better .




G'Day Fella's,

+1

Then buy a new Mk V or Rem 700 SS CDL in .257 Weatherby Mag as well!

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"


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DarylS
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Homer]
      #280618 - 09/04/16 10:43 AM

Oh yeah - forgot about the bolt and extractor - silly me - better yet, then, re-barrel it to .338/06 standard or IMP & end up with a MAJOR rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Postman]
      #280648 - 09/04/16 10:48 PM

Quote:

Yes! Therein lies my absolute consternation with those infernal Weatherby rifles!!! The stock shape fits me well, but the sloppy accuracy is is unforgivable in such an expensive rifle. The skinny creepy triggers are an utter abomination as well. I would lean toward dumping it. The Sako Finnlights also suffer from less than stellar accuracy, but are a damn sight better than the Weatherbys. Seems the only way to get a super light rifle that shoots really well is to go custom, or possibly a Blaser K95 if one could see their way to an extremely expensive single shot.




No idea about Weatherbys. My one play with an ultralight factory rifle was with a Winchester M70 Featherweight. They were being sold at a discount for later realised obvious reasons, to dump them and get rid of them before new improved stock came on the market.

Mine was a .30-06. Shot 6 inch groups with 3 shots. Free floated it, glass bedded it. New mounts. New scope. All sorts of loads tried. Never really improved. Piece of shit put on the market and sold at a huge discount to what I paid for it.

I think good factory ultralight rifles at an affordable price are mostly a fantasy or a lucky dip. More a custom proposition where lots of careful detail can be applied. There is a reason heavy barrels are used for target rifles.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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DarylS
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: NitroX]
      #280662 - 10/04/16 02:29 AM

Local chap bought one of the Remington Stainless 700's with a laminate stock and pencil weight barrel. It wouldn't shoot his old favourite load that worked so well in his 1600 Husky - best was 2 1/2" at 100 meters.

I pulled the barrelled action, relieved the 60 or 70 pounds of forend tip pressure that was bending the barrel, then had to re-bed to get the action aligned and square in the barrel channel. I put in 1/2" of bedding under the barrel shank, the rest floated. I think I only used JB Weld Epoxy for that job. East to use and synthetic axle grease for release agent.

With Federal 165gr. Fusion, it shot 1/2 to .6", and with Federal 165TSX factory ammo, it ran 3/8" to .45".
It still wouldn't shoot the 180's any better than before. LOL.

Shad shot, elk, moose, whitetail buck and a stone ram that fall, all with the 165gr. Barnes factory Federal load and all with one shot each. All but the elk were close, less than 150yards. The elk was 415yards, iirc.

So, I guess the point of all of this is, some light weight rifles will shoot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: DarylS]
      #280680 - 10/04/16 08:23 AM

I had one of the Winchesters and had the same problem. Couldn't keep three shots of anything in an 8" paper plate at 50yds. I dumped it and have never bought another Winchester. By the way, when I called the manufacturer they said that I was knit picking it.

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lonewulf
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Rell]
      #280684 - 10/04/16 10:12 AM

Quote:

Gentlemen,

I have a Weatherby Mark 5 Ultralightweight SMOA in 270 Winchester. It shoots like el crapo. I have had a few Weatherby rifles and some where rock stars and others lounge lizards. This one is a lizard.

Weatherby says it meets it's 1 inch garuanty but only with 140gr Sierra match kings .... Everything else is 2.25 MOA. Not a great hunting bullet to say the least.

My question is ....what do I do with it?

I like the action, stock and general form but do I rebarrel in 270 Win, rebarrel in something else or just sell it down the road as scrap for someone else's project?

I already have a couple of 06 derivatives.
-35 Whelen Ruger #1
-270 Win GMA takedown
-400 Whelen same GMA takedown
-338-06 Weatherby ULW sort on loan to my dad


Any genius would be appreciated.

THX

Rell




I don't have any really modern rifles so maybe I'm not well placed to offer an informed opinion but in my experience, true sub-MOA rifles are far less common than some would have us believe. In fact, (and maybe this says something about my shooting) I don't think I've ever owned a rifle that could be relied on to shoot under an inch "all day long" (as they say) or for that matter, deliver consistent sub-MOA groups on any given day of the year.

You have a rifle that shoots 140 grainers (of one sort or another) under an inch. You are nevertheless of the opinion that you've been short changed because it won't deliver the same level of accuracy across the full spectrum of .270 bullets. Again, I don't think I've ever encountered a rifle that will shoot anything I care to run through the mag into sub-MOA clusters. I mean, I hear about these rifles on the internet but I have never owned one. Again, maybe that says something about me. And I have to say, at this point we haven't even got to the problems I experience when shooting from a bench trying to coordinate my breathing and heart beat to the extent necessary to produce those tiny little groups as a matter of course at 100+ meters distant.

You have a wispy little high-power rifle that delivers a mid-range bullet weight into groups of less than one MOA. With a bit of perseverance and experimentation (there are lots of different bullets and powders out there) you may find another combo that also shoots under an inch - if you're lucky. If it were me, I think I'd be inclined to stick with the rifle for a while longer before ditching the thing and venturing into the unknown.


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DarylS
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: lonewulf]
      #280689 - 10/04/16 12:43 PM

Or, you could buy a CZ .22 Hornet and do this at 100 meters - all day. Those 40gr. HP's, by Sierra and Barnes have never grouped over 3/8" using 14.0gr. to 14.4gr. Lil'Gun and pistol primers.



My new one is not as accurate, but I was also using what are normally less accurate bullets, 45gr. Semi round nose and 40gr. Sp. I got the 3 shot and 4 shot groups mixed. LOL

These groups were with the Lux, Euro model, 23.4" light weight barrel and 6.5-20X44 Simmons .44 mag scope.



--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: DarylS]
      #280690 - 10/04/16 02:28 PM

With most of the better made guns today if you can't shoot under a 1" group there is something wrong. And it should shoot more than one group. Daryl I think that Somewhere around I have a lyman tong tool and dies for a hornet.

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lonewulf
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Wayne59]
      #280691 - 10/04/16 03:08 PM

Quote:

With most of the better made guns today if you can't shoot under a 1" group there is something wrong. And it should shoot more than one group. Daryl I think that Somewhere around I have a lyman tong tool and dies for a hornet.




You mean across the full spectrum of available projectile weights for the caliber??? Wow ... that's impressive. Didn't know that.

Hard to understand why people would even bother to keep photographic records anymore if it's that easy. I guess old habits die hard.


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Postman
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Wayne59]
      #280692 - 10/04/16 03:19 PM

Quote:

With most of the better made guns today if you can't shoot under a 1" group there is something wrong. And it should shoot more than one group. Daryl I think that Somewhere around I have a lyman tong tool and dies for a hornet.




I am a firm believer in this as well. Modern metallurgy, proper machining and careful assembly of many of today's rifles produce really astounding results. Careful hand loads dialled in to the specific rifle brings things in even tighter.

I have had tremendously impressive results with all Sako rifles (models 75 and 85) if one excludes the Finnlights which for me have tended to hover around or a little larger than 1 to 1.5 MOA. The TRG and the Sako stainless varmint were small ragged hole rifles at 100 yards. My cousin had a Tikka .308 and when we put good hand loads through it, it was a solid 1/2 MOA.

I have seen an AR shoot teeny tiny ragged holes albeit with a custom Lilja heavy barrel. Every Blaser I've ever touched shot incredibly tight groups as well.

Remington 700s for me have always tended to shoot very well and will often go 1 MOA or better. Too bad they can't figure out how to drill the scope base holes in a straight line.

With the newer hardware, one will have expectations set very very high compared to the old days. On the flip side, everything is possible on the Internet and there is always far greater fantasy than reality, where expanding the truth is the norm, however I do know that if I have a modern bolt gun that doesn't live up to Internet fantasy, I am uninterested in owning it. I do not expect MOA out of most self loaders, lever guns, doubles, and pumps, but if a modern bolt gun can't measure up, to me it is only as useful as a tent peg and firewood.


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lonewulf
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Re: Poor shooting Weatherby, what to do? [Re: Postman]
      #280694 - 10/04/16 03:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

With most of the better made guns today if you can't shoot under a 1" group there is something wrong. And it should shoot more than one group. Daryl I think that Somewhere around I have a lyman tong tool and dies for a hornet.




I am a firm believer in this as well. Modern metallurgy, proper machining and careful assembly of many of today's rifles produce really astounding results. Careful hand loads dialled in to the specific rifle brings things in even tighter.

I have had tremendously impressive results with all Sako rifles (models 75 and 85) if one excludes the Finnlights which for me have tended to hover around or a little larger than 1 to 1.5 MOA. The TRG and the Sako stainless varmint were small ragged hole rifles at 100 yards. My cousin had a Tikka .308 and when we put good hand loads through it, it was a solid 1/2 MOA.

I have seen an AR shoot teeny tiny ragged holes albeit with a custom Lilja heavy barrel. Every Blaser I've ever touched shot incredibly tight groups as well.

Remington 700s for me have always tended to shoot very well and will often go 1 MOA or better. Too bad they can't figure out how to drill the scope base holes in a straight line.

With the newer hardware, one will have expectations set very very high compared to the old days. On the flip side, everything is possible on the Internet and there is always far greater fantasy than reality, where expanding the truth is the norm, however I do know that if I have a modern bolt gun that doesn't live up to Internet fantasy, I am uninterested in owning it. I do not expect MOA out of most self loaders, lever guns, doubles, and pumps, but if a modern bolt gun can't measure up, to me it is only as useful as a tent peg and firewood.




Okay, just so I understand; you're saying I can go out today and expect to buy an ultra-light hunting rifle in something other than a 17 or 22 caliber (or other than in one of the specialist low intensity BR rigs) - so lets say a bog-standard 7mm-o8, .270, .280, 7 mm Rem Mag, 30-06 .300 Win Mag and I can fully expect that rifle (despite the fixed twist rate and paper thin barrel walls and less than perfect chamber) to consistently shoot sub-MOA groups across the full spectrum of the available projectile weights for that caliber? And you're suggesting that's the norm - with the good manufacturers?

Cos if that's true I think the OP should absolutely take his rifle back to the dealer and insist that it's replaced pronto. Absolutely.!

Edited by lonewulf (10/04/16 03:59 PM)


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