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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand
Dating a M. 1903 MS
      #280158 - 02/04/16 12:58 PM



I have a 1903 Model MS takedown rifle in 6.5x54 MS. If possible I'd like to discover it's year of manufacture but so far that information has eluded me. I was hoping someone here would be in a position help.

The rifle has numerous numbers and markings but nothing that appears to suggest a date of manufacture.

The numbers/markings are as follows:

The front receiver ring is stippled on the upper surface and marked Patent Mannlicher Schoenauer M. 1903

The left side receiver wall is marked Oesterr Wappenfabr. Ges. Steyer

The underside of the breech has the letter T enclosed in a circle. This mark also appears on the underside of the receiver.

The breech and receiver are both numbered 5954.

The opposite side of the breech appears to me to have a number of, what appear to me to be British proof marks. These include an arm holding a scimitar/sword above the letters NP, the letter P (in the style of the @ symbol with a crown over it and the letter V with a crown over it. The breech also has the words Nitro Proved written on it. There is another mark in the form of an animal, possibly a hind.


Does any of this help those of you who have an understanding of these matters?

Thanks

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: lonewulf]
      #280169 - 02/04/16 07:13 PM

With the action & barrel removed from the stock you should see a number followed by a . then anothe two digit number. The number immediately following the dot is the year of proof.
NP means 'nitroproofed'.
I believe but may not be correct the other marks are Austrian or German stamps.
1922 year of proofing



As above 1779.22 = 1922 year of proofing.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand
Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: deeangeo]
      #280171 - 02/04/16 08:33 PM

Thanks for getting back to me.

Unfortunately, I can't find a .XX number on my rifle anywhere.

The serial number of the rifle appears to be 5954. This number features on the right side of the breech and in front of the recoil lug on the receiver. It's also stamped onto the base of the bolt handle, inside the magazine assembly, and on the underside of the magazine follower. The last two digits also appear on the bolt head and parts of the magazine assembly.

The only other numerals that I can see are a +1 and a -1 that appear on the underside of the barreled action (one on the barrel and one on the receiver). The magazine also has the letter K on it in several places while the rear of the receiver is also stamped with the letter B.

On the subject of proof marks I have to confess I know very little however, would it be normal for an Austrian proof house of this period to inscribe a rifle with the words "Nitro Proved"? That seems odd to me as does the symbol with an arm and scimitar over the letters "NP".

Edited by lonewulf (02/04/16 08:36 PM)

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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
Loc: France
Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: lonewulf]
      #280174 - 02/04/16 09:34 PM

Lone Wulf
If your rifle doesn't bear any Austrian marking (in particular the NPV from the Vienna proof house), you most probably own a Mannlicher-Schoenauer that was assembled in the UK by British rifle smiths and proved in London. The symbol with an arm and scimitar over the letters "NP" has been the London definitive nitro (smokeless) powder proof for all guns since 1904. I also own one MS of the British trade, a M. 1908 with serial number 664; it bears the same marking as yours. I contacted in 2015 the London Proof House but they do not hold any archives for early to mid XXth century and could not therefore provide with any information about proofing year.
I hope this will help.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
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Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: lonewulf]
      #280175 - 02/04/16 09:41 PM

On my example pic. the serial number is 16020.
The proof number 1779 indicates that was the number proofed (1778 proofed beforehand) and the dot22 is the year of proof.
Cannot be certain what to make of it if there's no dot followed by a number.
Others on here may know better than myself. However a good pic of both sides of the barrel/receiver may help more.

My rifle has the word Nitroproved on plus NP with a small V under the P



--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Louis
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Reged: 13/05/15
Posts: 977
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Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: deeangeo]
      #280180 - 02/04/16 11:39 PM

Deeangeo
In my opinion:
- Your rifle was proofed in Vienna ("NPV" is the marking of the Vienna proof house) in 1922; markings of the kind "1779.22" are Austrian, not British.
- It was subsequently imported in the UK; if imported from 1925 it should also bear the marking "Not English Made".
- After being imported it was also re-proofed in the UK in London, as shown by the British markings on your picture “GP” surmounted with a crown (this has been the London definitive proof since 1637), “V” surmounted with a crown (this was the London view mark until 1955), “GP” surmounted with a lion (the London provisional proof for barrels since 1813) and "NP” surmounted with a scimitar (this has been the London definitive nitro (smokeless) powder proof for all guns since 1904).
Regards.
Louis

--------------------
"Everything that doesn't kill me makes me stronger"

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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand
Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: Louis]
      #280181 - 02/04/16 11:54 PM



Louis and Deeangeo, thanks for that; its very helpful.

It's really interesting isn't it - my rifle is very similarly marked to yours Deeangeo but it doesn't have the NVP mark. So as Louis noted, probably assembled and proofed in the UK (London), and maybe sometime between 1904 and 1925??

Maybe it would help if I did some additional research on British and particularly London proofs. Maybe the words "Nitro Proved" can be dated or perhaps the circled "T" on my rifle.

There are one or two other marks that may also be traceable.

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lonewulf
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Reged: 06/08/12
Posts: 227
Loc: South-East Otago, New Zealand
Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: lonewulf]
      #280184 - 03/04/16 01:01 AM

Okay, I almost forgot about this but in late 2012 I had an email exchange with a very well informed bloke about Austro-Hungarian proof marks. He told me (I know cos I've just had a look) that the circled "T" mark on my rifle is Austrian and was an abbreviated form of the word Tiegelgussstahl. Apparently, this denoted the use of a new high grade steel. He said it wasn't know exactly but it was thought the mark was first used during or shortly after the First World War.

Now, he also pointed out that MS hunting rifles weren't made during WW 1 and possibly not for a couple of years thereafter - so production may not have been resumed till circa 1920.

Now that's really interesting because if he's correct and the circled "T" mark appeared on MS rifles no earlier than 1920; but all non-British made rifles imported into the UK were marked as such from 1925,(which my rifle isn't) then it would strongly suggest that my rifle was probably made between about 1920 and 1925.

If anyone can further refine these dates that would be much appreciated.

Edited by lonewulf (03/04/16 01:08 AM)

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deeangeo
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Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Dating a M. 1903 MS [Re: lonewulf]
      #280204 - 03/04/16 07:08 AM

http://www.hallowellco.com/proof_date_codes.htm

http://www.mannlicher.org/aboutmannlichers/mannlichercharacteristics

This website may be of some help.

Edited by deeangeo (03/04/16 04:52 PM)

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