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deeangeo
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Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes???
      #280078 - 31/03/16 05:58 PM

Now although this post may be in the wrong place, I put it here because these are Mannlicher threads. Admin may move it if they feel it's not placed correctly.

Anyway, now that my M1903 has been scoped I'm ready to start loading some ammo for it and ask my fellow NitroExpress readers what recipes you use for making the rifle go bang - with a degree of accuracy?

The rifle is never going to 'cloverleaf' and I have some recipes using H4895 & IMR3031 from 25 years ago. However, in that time those propellants may have changed somewhat. Certainly the packaging has.

Currently I have 37gns of IMR4350 powering a 160gn Hornady RN Interlock bullet & Rem. 9 1/2 primers. The bullet is crimped into the cannelure with an OAL of 2.944"
The barrel on my rifle is 22 1/2" and I'm trying to achieve a close RWS factory ammo MV of 2350fps.
The cartridge cases are brand new Norma & headspace at 1.7" the fired RWS cases I have measure fired case headspace/deprimed @ 1.704 - 1.705"

I haven't yet tested the above load, so have no idea if it will work satisfactorily or not.
If the rifle gives 1" MOA @ 100yds, I'll be content, better & I'll consider it a bonus.

I'd appreciate any input from you all. Cheers.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280079 - 31/03/16 06:29 PM

Deeangeo, here is the data that the gun maker supplied when I had my custom mannlicher made. The usual disclaimers apply, this worked in my rifle, it might not in yours, best, Mike

"Load Development (by Rocky Hays)

The customer requested hand loads using Woodleigh 160 grain Weldcore and Barnes 130 grain TSX bullets. When I do load development, I blueprint each case, uniform the primer pocket and flash hole, re-size and trim to length. I take portable loading equipment to the range, so I can load one round and shoot it. That way, the barrel is always cold when fired. In addition, if I have an unacceptable load, I don't have others like it. I shoot from a bench rest using a Lead Sled and try to hold the gun the same way for each shot. I record weather data and chronograph every shot. The idea is to remove all possible human and weather-induced variables.

I found one line of load data for IMR 4350 powder in an old reloading manual to use as a starting point. 36.8 grains was supposed to yield 2100 feet per second (fps) for the 140 grain bullet and 34.0 grains was supposed to yield 1900 fps for the 160 grain bullet.

The first load tried in the new rifle used 36 grains of Hodgdon 4350 powder and a 130 grain Barnes TSX bullet. Winchester primers and new Norma brass were used for all loads. The chronographed velocity was 2636 fps 10' from the muzzle. The fired primer showed signs of slight cratering, so experimenting with this load was discontinued.

The second load I tried was 34 grains of Hodgdon 4350 with a 156 grain Norma bullet. This chronographed at 2555 fps and showed the same slight primer cratering. Again, testing was stopped. I concluded that the old load data was essentially useless with modern bullets and powders in this rifle.

I reduced the minimum load to 32 grains of H4350 and fired 30 test rounds. I switched to Accurate 4350, which lowered the muzzle velocity by about 200 fps. The average 100 yard group size was 2-1/2" with either 4350 powder, which I regarded as unsatisfactory for this rifle.

I then tried IMR 3031 powder. This yielded an appropriate muzzle velocity of 2124 fps with the 156 grain Norma bullet and a 1-5/16" group size. Better accuracy, but still not what I was looking for.

I moved on to IMR 4895 powder. 28.8 grains yielded a 1", five shot group. IMR 4895 clearly agreed with this rifle. It should be noted that the maximum load with IMR 4895, according to the reloading manual, is 34 grains. I exceeded that muzzle velocity by 100 fps with 30 grains of powder.

The following trip to the range was to develop a hunting load using IMR 4895 powder. I used Woodleigh Weldcore 160 grain bullets and Winchester WLR primers. The results were as follows:

powder (gr) velocity (fps) avg. 100 yd. group std. deviation

28.6 2043 1-1/16" 217

28.8 2110 1" 107

29 2181 3/4" 69

29.2 2219 3/4" 104

29.4 2251 1" 207

29.6 2278 1-1/8" 125

29.8 2302 1" 114

30 2323 1-1/4" 181

The next range day was devoted to the Barnes 130 grain TSX bullet, with IMR 4895 and Winchester WLR primers:

powder (gr) velocity (fps) avg. 100 yd. group std. deviation

29.8 2094 fps 1-3/4" 69

30 2145 1-3/4" 71

30.2 2186 1-1/2" 57

30.4 2194 15/16" 62

30.6 2115 15/16" 53

30.8 2232 5/8" 14

31 2260 3/4" 64

31.2 2289 1-1/2" 87

31.4 2330 2-3/4" 106

It became obvious that pushing the 130 grain bullet much over 2260 fps in this barrel degraded the accuracy, perhaps due to the 1:8" twist. By the end of the third day at the range, I had fired nearly 250 rounds and had developed sufficient loading data for each of the requested bullets. The targets indicated I could switch between the 130 grain and 160 grain bullets without re-adjusting the scope.

Next, I loaded more of the selected loads with 130 and 160 grain bullets and shot both bullet weights at the same target to form a composite group. The 130 grain bullets produced a group that was centered 7/8" high and right from the bull's eye. The 160 grain group was centered 9/16" low and left from the bull's eye, which means that there was only about 1-1/2" between the centers of impact of the two bullet weights. Compared to the size of a big game animal, this is negligible."

Edited by Mike_Bailey (31/03/16 07:09 PM)

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #280085 - 01/04/16 04:32 AM

Thanks for your input here Mike.

Quote:I found one line of load data for IMR 4350 powder in an old reloading manual to use as a starting point. 36.8 grains was supposed to yield 2100 feet per second (fps) for the 140 grain bullet and 34.0 grains was supposed to yield 1900 fps for the 160 grain bullet.

That's interesting.
I fired 12 rounds of 140gn SST with 37gns IMR4350 last Saturday...just to get the scope/rifle lined up on the paper. Just a test load to see what it looked like. No pressure signs & no chrono work done. Group was 2" or 1" MOA. But I didn't have enough rounds after getting it onto the paper to form a proper opinion.
I'm sure it won't take long to generate an accurate enough load with the 140gn SST & IMR4350

But really, the rifle was designed with the 160gn bullet in mind, so that's what I'd really like to develop.
Following some data received from a friend, I'm given to understand 37gns of IMR4350 pushing a 160gn bullet is moderately hot. I'll try 1 round and have a looksee. If it is too hot I'll readily abandon it and moderate accordingly. I suspect most of the propellants I have at present are on the 'slow' side, but we'll see.
Best wishes, d.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280086 - 01/04/16 04:59 AM

Deeangeo, I have 180 cases of new unfixed Norma brass if you would like them, ideally I'd like to swap them for some .25-06 rem brass. IF you can price that up I'll do a swap in your favour financially. Otherwise I'll just post you the brass as a gift since I won't be using it. Also I have, I think, 100 Woodleigh 160 grain bullets in 6.5 which are in the UK and I can send to you when I am over in May. I would like 100 Nosler Partition 120 grainers in .257 in exchange, again, will be to your advantage on cost side as I don't need the 6.5 s, best, Mike

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #280087 - 01/04/16 05:08 AM

I think 30-31 grains of IMR 4895 behind the 160 grain bullet is the way to go, DEPENDING on your twist rate. If you have a chrono the 31 grains will put it above the 2400 FPS the lunatics in the UK have decided is the minimum needed to kill deer. Funny, you couldn't shoot a red Stag in Scotland with a .500 NE, not enough muzzle velocity !! who said "the funny thing about common sense is that is not that common ".....
Best

Edited by Mike_Bailey (01/04/16 05:31 AM)

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TexasJohn
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #280100 - 01/04/16 10:55 AM

Keep in mind that some of these old rifles have generous bore sizes. I have not slugged the bore of my early 1903 so I do not know where it fall in this regard. It likes the max load from my Hornady book for IMR 4350 - 39.0 grains with the 160 grain round nose. It will deliver near minute of angle accuracy with this load with no pressure issues. If your rifle has a tight bore this might not work.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: TexasJohn]
      #280113 - 01/04/16 06:17 PM

Thanks for that John. I have no idea where the actual bore dia. is, but when I get into ammo. development, I'm sure I'll soon see if all is not well.
The rifle shot 160gn RWS factory rounds well enough from iron sights before it was scoped though.
Cheers, d

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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lonewulf
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280176 - 02/04/16 09:57 PM


Hi Deenangeo, interesting thread.

This may have been covered by someone else, if so just ignore it but I note you mention you're crimping into the cannelures of your 160 grain Hornady projectiles. You mention that this is giving you a COL of 2.944.

If that's the case, are you experiencing any feeding issues from the mag? It's been my experience that the 6.5 x 54 MS must have a COL of about 3.040 if the cartridges are to feed smoothly. In the case of the 160 gn Hornady's, this means seating the projectiles well out beyond the cannelure. Anything less than this and the feeding is not only rough as hell, but you can actually damage the shoulders of the cartridge cases. Also, and for what it's worth, I've never bothered crimping my loads for the MS and it's never caused me any issues.

Edited by lonewulf (02/04/16 09:59 PM)

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #280177 - 02/04/16 11:00 PM

Nope lonewolf, no feeding problems at all since adjusting the feed ramp in the receiver..smooth as silk.

If you check out this link to a thread on NitroExpress..I did have a problem with the feed when I bought the rifle, but sorted it out as per details in the link.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=266820&an=0&page=2#Post266820

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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lonewulf
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280178 - 02/04/16 11:24 PM

I'll tell you a funny little story.

I picked up my 1903 about 25 years ago at an auction. I immediately purchased the necessary reloading components (including some 160 grain Hornady round-nosed projectiles) and proceeded to load up a batch with the bullets seated out to the cannelure (I mean, why wouldn't you?). Sadly, the bloody things all but refused to feed from the mag. I was really strapped for cash in those days and assuming I'd picked up a lemon I stashed the thing in the back of the cupboard and there it stayed (just being cleaned and admired) for the next 20 years. At one point I had a smith polish-up the feed ramp but it still seemed dreadful so back into the cupboard it went.

Then by chance one day I read a comment online where this guy mentioned the critical COL on MS rifles. I assumed he was overstating the case somewhat but I loaded up a dummy round anyway just to satisfy myself that nothing could be that easy and moved the COL out to 3 inches. The bloody thing chambered the round like greased butter. I was just staggered. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. In the end I think I did a bit of both.

Edited by lonewulf (02/04/16 11:29 PM)

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: lonewulf]
      #280179 - 02/04/16 11:37 PM

Just shows nothing is necessarily straightforward.
My initial rounds for this rifle were made to the max OAL @ 3.063" and no, they wouldn't chamber. Seated the bullet a bit deeper, still no joy....just more damaged cases. So I tried factory RWS 160gn rounds...nope, not a chance.
So then the thread started, finally resolving the problem.

The whole thing is sweet as could be now.....I just want to find a 16ogn load that works, along with a 140gn load.
Going to Scotland to hopefully take a roebuck at the end of April...we'll see!

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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DonZ
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280185 - 03/04/16 01:09 AM

I have had the same problem with Hornady rounds crimped in the cannelure. In fact, it was that issue that started me on my path to reloading. Well, that and a complete inability to find anything chambered in .45 ACP, though that situation seems somewhat resolved.

Which leads me to my next (relevant) question. At the same time .45 ACP seemed to be unobtanium, powder was scarce on the ground as well. I did manage to find some Vhita Vouri, which seems unpopular in the US. In addition to the pistol powder, I was able to find some VV N160. Has anyone tried this as a load? Success stories?

--------------------
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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: DonZ]
      #280199 - 03/04/16 06:25 AM

Do you have a chronograph? You may find that, if your bore is oversize as many of them are, that the RWS rounds you refer to, which have undersize bullets, may not perform as well as you expect, either in accuracy or velocity. RWS brass is great, however.

The Hornady 160g should do better than RWS bullets, because they're larger in diameter - a true .264". They are a tapered nose bullet. If you are happy with their velocity and accuracy, look no further. However, for roe deer you may find that something smaller will do the job better, but try the 160g and see. Smaller bullets should in theory pose problems in terms of having to jump to the lands, but in fact I found their accuracy quite acceptable.

If your velocity and accuracy are still down, a fix is likely to be that Hornady also sell a Carcano bullet which is several thousandth oversize. You need to work with some caution if you use this. Firstly you need to slug the rifle bore to establish exactly what size it is and if it is, in fact, safe at all to use the Carcano bullet. Secondly, if it is, then you must ignore what you have read about COL because this bullet is not tapered like the standard Hornady .264" bullet. So it will jam in the lands,raise pressure alarmingly and also leave the bullet still jammed there if you open the bolt without firing it. So you must seat it much deeper. How deep? You will need a Hornady (a.k.a. Stoney Point) Overall Length Tool to establish this. However the bigger bullet, when used in suitable oversized bores, ensures a much better seal. This means much better velocity and good accuracy. I think that this Carcano bullet should do well at 6,5x54 M.Sch. velocities, (around 2,200 fps), on such game as roe deer.

If you do not have access to an Overall Length Tool and/or do not slug the bore, suggest you stay well away from the Carcano bullet. Don't try to wing it.

If you use the undersize RWS bullets, I have found it helpful to have a second FL sizing die with a sizing button that has been turned down a few thousandths. This allows me to seat the undersize bullet in the neck without it falling out afterwards - and to crimp it too.

I have never had any problems feeding these various rounds in my M1903.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #280201 - 03/04/16 06:58 AM

Overall-Length Tool and adapting it to odd calibres, (such as 6,5x54 M.Sch.)

It occurs to me after writing this, that you normally order with this tool a SAAMI spec cartridge case in whatever calibre you are loading. This has the primer pocket already tapped for the tool and also the neck is made a sliding fit for the bullet. The idea is, you put the case and bullet into the chamber, put a cleaning rod, (I use a small diameter wooden dowel), in the muzzle end and push a similar plastic rod on the tool from the breech end until you feel the bullet touch the lands. You lock the breech rod in place with a screw and remove and measure the case and bullet to get OAL to lands. Subtract 10 thou or so and you have a useful seating depth FOR THAT RIFLE ONLY.

You can use SAAMI or European CIL specs, but the OAL tool gives you a custom COL length. In the case of the Carcano bullet above, neither SAAMI nor CIL apply so you must use this tool.

So how do you make a 6,5x54 M.Sch. case (or any other non-listed case that money cannot buy), for this tool?

The reaming job is straightforward, you just need the right tap. If you've used the RCBS stuck case remover, you'll know what to do - or ask your gunsmith to do it for you. I assume you can work out the Hornady thread size. If not, let me know and I'll find my thread gauge.

Now comes the neck; how do you make it a sliding fit? I guess you could fire the cartridge and not size it, tap it and you're good to go. But one day you'll accidentally size it in a batch. What do you do then?

I use some thin plastic sheet that came from Ballistic Products, (I think it's "mylar wrap", but the description has gone). This plastic is hard enough and also thin enough that if you wrap a bit into a funnel shape and insert it into the case mouth, you can now lower the FL die and expander button into the case and the plastic will not split. The case neck is now several thou oversize and a bullet is a sliding fit. If the plastic falls in, (rarely), just use a bullet puller to get it out.

Whatever odd calibre you have, (such as 9,5x57 M.Sch, 9x56 M.Sch., 8x56 M.Sch. and so on),you can now make a custom case to establish the best OAL. Likewise, for any of the listed calibres for which Hornady do have a SAAMI spec case, (e.g. .243Win., .270 Win., etc.), you can instead make your own and it will be a custom fit to your rifle so the OAL length will be exact, not just approximate.

It's also quite useful to discover if you have free-bore and simply learn more about your rifle. For instance, I used it on three .243's and each of them were quite different.

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #280202 - 03/04/16 07:05 AM

Yes I have a chronograph & when ready with rounds that perform will be checking MV from my rifle/ammo combination, then fine tune as necessary.
Using iron sights, the factory RWS 159gn ammunition shot quite well giving a 1" MOA group @ 100yds.
I don't think I have a problem with the bore and shall soon know if the 160gn Hornady bullet performs. If not, I have a variety of propellants to hand & in mind.
Currently I roll crimp into the cannelure, but have ordered a custom Factory Crimp Die from Lee Inc. That will be with me in around 8-19 weeks.

I'll see how it goes, I'm only at the first stages yet, so still mooching around my first trtial loads..hope to shoot them one evg this coming week.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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lonewulf
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280206 - 03/04/16 07:36 AM



Hi K/B

I was just wondering, is the Hornady tool you describe really necessary to establish distance to lands?

What I tend to do in such circumstances is to just drop a projectile into the breech. I then tap it oh so gently so that it catches on the lands, then use a cleaning rod to measure the distance between the tip of the projectile and the muzzle. I then tap out the projectile, close the bolt on an empty chamber and measure the distance from the bolt face to the muzzle, again, using a cleaning rod. This then gives me a max COL from which to develop my hand loads.

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: DonZ]
      #280207 - 03/04/16 07:44 AM

Quote:

I have had the same problem with Hornady rounds crimped in the cannelure. In fact, it was that issue that started me on my path to reloading. Well, that and a complete inability to find anything chambered in .45 ACP, though that situation seems somewhat resolved.

Which leads me to my next (relevant) question. At the same time .45 ACP seemed to be unobtanium, powder was scarce on the ground as well. I did manage to find some Vhita Vouri, which seems unpopular in the US. In addition to the pistol powder, I was able to find some VV N160. Has anyone tried this as a load? Success stories?



Used Viht. N160 for many years, mostly for .243Win. Reloading using that propellant for a Stery Mannlicher Mod L stutzen & 95gn Nosler Balistic tip bullet. Brilliant.
I have an idea I used it in my .273 Steyr too, but jsut can't quite remember...it was some 25 years ago. I probably have the load data lurking somewhere.
Definitely have my specific data for the .243Win.

Why/what is so unobtainable with regard to .45ACP? Standard stock US items I thought???

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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DonZ
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280217 - 03/04/16 09:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:



Why/what is so unobtainable with regard to .45ACP? Standard stock US items I thought???



Yes, standard stock. But every so often, someone does something foolish and gets shot, and the best gun salesman ever gets on TV and decries the madness, stating that if he had a son, he'd look like the foolish one. This leads to rumors that something will soon be outlawed, sales spike, and ammo flies off the shelves like a run on a Greek Bank. Next thing you know, the most common items are out of stock everywhere. In 2013, you could not find 5.56, 9mm, .45ACP, powder, or primers anywhere. It has gotten better since then, but I learned to reload, which as an added bonus means I'm saving money on ammo. I suppose I could switch to IMR, but I liked the VV. I should work up a good load with it, but life has a way of intervening. I have some nice RWS brass, some nice match primers, and a box of Woodleigh bullets waiting to be assembled. Time. That's the one thing I need... Time.

--------------------
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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: DonZ]
      #280225 - 03/04/16 04:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



Why/what is so unobtainable with regard to .45ACP? Standard stock US items I thought???



Yes, standard stock. But every so often, someone does something foolish and gets shot, and the best gun salesman ever gets on TV and decries the madness, stating that if he had a son, he'd look like the foolish one. This leads to rumors that something will soon be outlawed, sales spike, and ammo flies off the shelves like a run on a Greek Bank. Next thing you know, the most common items are out of stock everywhere. In 2013, you could not find 5.56, 9mm, .45ACP, powder, or primers anywhere. It has gotten better since then, but I learned to reload, which as an added bonus means I'm saving money on ammo. I suppose I could switch to IMR, but I liked the VV. I should work up a good load with it, but life has a way of intervening. I have some nice RWS brass, some nice match primers, and a box of Woodleigh bullets waiting to be assembled. Time. That's the one thing I need... Time.



I know we had a hard time getting some components from the USA a while ago, but it didn't completely dry up. Then again, we have legal limitations we have to stick to in the UK...can't just rush out & stockpile!
So more European stuff started coming in at better prices....now the currency rate has fallen & sterling is weaker, at least until after our in/out EU referendum in June.
Then, we shall see what happens.

Viht. N320 was what I used in the old days when it was legal here to own handguns (until 1997)
Use Ramshot Zip in France occasionally. (It's another European propellant from Belgium)
Large pistol primers & 230gn FMJ bullets.
But this stuff is for another thread I think.
Cheers, d

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280226 - 03/04/16 05:04 PM

The thread for the Hornady overall length gauge is 5/16-36 UNS form memory. I have a tap at work and we made a special lathe chuck which centres the case mouth and grips the case at the base. It works really well and we machine quite a lot of cases for other people, especially on fire formed cases. To open the neck you can wind the sizing button right down and carefully push it through the neck only and then pull it straight back out without letting the main body touch the neck.

Waidmannsheil.

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #280228 - 03/04/16 05:12 PM

That is interesting information Waidmannsheil. I'm absolutely certain I can get a case done in the workshop at the factory. No issue there at all.

I don't yet own a Hornady OAL tool, but I might just throw the dosh at one...I've always made up my own OAL cases and friction slid the bullet to the land and carefully closed the bolt.

But it's probably time after 35 years of reloading to get another bit of kit!!!!

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Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280311 - 04/04/16 03:10 PM

To Lonewulf; yes that works, but I prefer the tool. For one thing, projectile nose tips vary somewhat so the result is not so reliable between bullets. However the Hornady tool measures OAL length on the ogive using calibre inserts.

Best powder for the 6,5x54 M.Sch. in my carbine using 160-grn Hornady .267" (Carcano) bullets was 2,511 fps using WW 760. Ken Waters said "highest velocity with a 160grain" and that is what I found. 4 (of 5)went in 1,1/4". That may have been an outside to outside measurement, I'd have to find the original target.

In terms of lands:.2564 .2565 .2564 across three different locations on the lands.
grooves: .2681 .2680 .2678 measured by gunsmith. All measurements done in thousandths of an inch with a 0—0001” reduced anvil micrometer. Note, reduced anvil means small anvil, about 1mm. So the Hornady .267" Carcano bullets are a good fit IN THIS RIFLE.

Ray Ordorica discusses bore sizes in Handloader's Digest 15th edition. In essence, groove diameter of 6,5x54 M.Sch. rifles is typically .2666 to .268”. Greener, quoted by Ordorica, says lands .256” and grooves .268”. Bingo ! So a 4 thou over size bullet is normal in this 1928 18"/46cm barrel carbine.

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deeangeo
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #280312 - 04/04/16 05:19 PM

Quote:

To Lonewulf; yes that works, but I prefer the tool. For one thing, projectile nose tips vary somewhat so the result is not so reliable between bullets. However the Hornady tool measures OAL length on the ogive using calibre inserts.



Measuring on the ogive with a Comparator is the only good way to establish correct OAL.

Although, it's fair to say the polymer tipped bullets, although the plastic nose may vary slightly, it's nowhere near as much of a variation as with exposed lead tips.

Some interesting info there kiwibloke, it won't be long I hope before I can get to the range to establish what my rifle is doing..at least from the loading point of view, but as to chronoing the loads...may take somewhat longer now, a friend just shot my chrony! right through the middle.
Cheers.

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Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: deeangeo]
      #280314 - 04/04/16 06:47 PM

That is a test of friendship - I know. I shot my mates one! Bullet disintegrated and took it out. Replaced the broken screens, (from Oehler) but he was a bit frosty even so. He sold me the bullets too. Some very old ones. I have my own Oehler now, so that's solved that problem.

Every time I set up a rifle to shoot from it I (1) sight alongside (or through) the barrel to make sure it will clear the screens and (2) on the Chrony I used electrical tape on the wires so that, I could be sure the telescope reticule bars were above it and hence the bore was high enough to clear.

Anyway, that velocity figure of mine is quite high, only with that powder. If you're getting 2,100 - 2,200 fps, that should be quite OK.

Post war rifles, from early 1950's were aimed at the American market and so the bore size is more likely to be .264" in these. So proceed with caution and don't use oversize bullets in these - or any rifle without measuring the bore first with Cerrosafe.

Have an awesome hunt.

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Brithunter
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Re: Reloading MSch 6.5x54 Recipes??? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #280315 - 04/04/16 07:15 PM

I had two Steyr 6.5mm rifles one the Rigby Mannlicher Mdl 1892 and a pre 24 Model 1903 Schoenaeur. The Rigby had an excellent bore but the 1903 barel had been relined at some point and not very well. Through Ron Wharton a brand new in the white Steyr barrel was found and obtained which was then fitted by Lewis Potter.

I made a stepped brass bore guage with the steps inceasing by 0.001" and both barrels were found to have bores of 0.256". Both barrels including the brand new one had grooves of 0.268" so the grooves are in fact 0.006" deep and not 0.004" that is popular in the US. These are NOT oversized bores but correct to the specs of the design for these cartridges. Sadly there was no date of manufacture on the new barrel of it's packaging so we do not know when this was made.

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