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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Lee Speed Forum & Archive

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Sarg]
      #277521 - 04/02/16 10:07 AM

Quote:

Roy, I wouldn't disparage that info, I think that is absolutely fantastic & I would be over the moon to have that amount of information on any one on my Old fire arms, great work by you & William Evans !

Yes I thought Evans had done most of the work on your rifle as it differed from the norm .




Hi Sarg,

Thanks so much for your kind words, very much appreciated. In these days where it's difficult to get the rifle to survive in somewhat original condition, it is truly a treat to have some documentation survive too. So I am indeed thrilled.

I think I will try to print a good facsimile or the document (I have both full pages) as I think it will be a nice idea to photograph it with the rifle.

Next step to contact a good friend of mine and try to do a little research on this chap, a long shot but hey my luck might hold out..!

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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A10ACN
.300 member


Reged: 30/01/05
Posts: 196
Loc: USA
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #277524 - 04/02/16 12:00 PM

Such a neat treat rifle!! Thanks so much for the detail pics! Love that engraved screw head! I think a range report is due!!

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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: A10ACN]
      #277557 - 05/02/16 02:16 AM

Quote:

Such a neat treat rifle!! Thanks so much for the detail pics! Love that engraved screw head! I think a range report is due!!




You are absolutely right and a range report will be inbound soon. I was actually waiting for my new carry pistol to arrive, so I can give them both a whirl while I was there and that turned up yesterday, so it's just about picking some ammo up (for the pistol) and making some time. Never fear sometime soon - promise..!

The small engraved 'safe' screw-head is one of my favorite details too.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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AlanD
.275 member


Reged: 14/12/08
Posts: 55
Loc: NSW Australia
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #277650 - 07/02/16 10:31 AM

Roy Glad you got a good bit of info back from Evans.

I have spent the best part of two days sitting in the basement going through their records that relate to 1914-1918 and 1939-1945. It was fascinating to sit in a gun shop taking in the daily activity of a busy working gun shop in Central London, warts and all.

Evans would be one of less than a dozen British gunmakers where the records could be described as more or less complete.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney


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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: AlanD]
      #277651 - 07/02/16 02:00 PM

Hi Alan,

Thanks for that mate. Gosh that must have been a wonderful experience actually going through their records in person, well done Alan, what an opportunity.

When I living back in my home town of Shrewsbury in England (before moving to the US) I occasionally got the train down to London to spend time at the IWM archives, a real privilege to be on site for such research.

So many of these old time gunmakers are disappearing fast, a great shame.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #280033 - 30/03/16 12:54 PM

Hi Chaps,

I'm in the process of creating a small section on my website dedicated to the Lee-Speed. It is in it's infancy to don't be too harsh. I have made a start by writing up a page on my William Evans rifle. I plan to do this for all my rifles as time allow, as said this is just the beginning.

Anyway here is a link to my efforts thus far.

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/Lee-Speed_No1_By_William_Evans.html

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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VonGruff
.400 member


Reged: 08/02/09
Posts: 1119
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand.
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #280046 - 30/03/16 05:04 PM

That is a really well presented page Roy with a great deal of informative and interesting detail. The one thing that you may need to look at is the text on the first couple of sections which is not fully readable with the words dissaparing.
A wothwhile resource which will be well received by us Lee Enfield (speeds and otherwise) afficianado's.
Look forward to further editions

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1652
Loc: Australia
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: VonGruff]
      #280055 - 30/03/16 10:54 PM

Great webpage! I know what im staying up tonight reading

--------------------
.


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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Ash]
      #280059 - 31/03/16 01:01 AM

Thanks for your kind words gents.

A labour of love as they say and something I enjoy doing. I still have lots to do especially on the main page, and of course I have to do do write-ups on the other rifles yet. I think I will finish the page on the Evans rifle first and that will have to include a range trip soon.

If you have any problem reading the text, just try refreshing the page or open it up on a different browser. Sometimes when I do loads of update to the site it takes a while to fully settle. And it is only a basic website builder, that coupled with my basic knowledge of these things etc.

So watch this space and as I get around to finishing other pages I will let everyone know.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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TexasJohn
.300 member


Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Texas
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #280101 - 01/04/16 11:09 AM

Given the time period involved, Mr E.J. Hudson was likely in the British forces. I did a quick look and there were a couple during the WWI period. If you had just a little more information, you could narrow it down and get some easy records to start looking for him here:

https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."


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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: TexasJohn]
      #280129 - 02/04/16 02:33 AM

Thanks John,

I'm afraid I have no more details on this chap at this stage. I had a friend of mine who is pretty good at research look into it and as you say the lack of further details prevented anything conclusive. I'm with you though in that I suspect this gents was most likely military current (at that time) or retired.

Cheers, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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Old_Glass
.300 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Sarg]
      #282885 - 25/05/16 02:42 PM

There is an Edward F[isher] Hudson born in Dec. 1869 at Greenwich (or sometime in 1870) listed in the UK Census for 1901 as being employed by "His Britannic Majesty's Consular Service". It's worth remembering that firearms ownership was not common in Victorian England except among farmers, gamekeepers, the landed gentry and the upper middle classes who took an interest in "field sports". So that probably lets out most of the other candidates. I looked for Eric, Edward and Edmund, and he was the best fit. There could be others of course. Too bad more records aren't available, but the "OB 478/04" is perhaps "Order Book..." I wonder if those still exist? If the ledger shown was the only one, there would be no need for such a reference. The Order Book may have listed personal details whereas the other ledger would record the details of the build?

[url=https://familysearch.org/search/collection/results?count=20&query=%2Bgivenname%3A"Edward%20F."%20%2Bsurname%3AHudson%20%2Bgender%3AM&collection_id=1888129]https://familysearch.org/search/collecti...tion_id=1888129[/url]

If you could find Hudson's will or probate papers the rifle might be listed, and if it does turn out to be his rifle, you should be able to get details of his career from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office or the Public Record Office at Kew.

I see Hudson was Vice-Consul at Colon, Panama in 1904 and in 1908 in northern Chile: [url=https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28234/page/2121/data.pdf]https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/28234/page/2121/data.pdf[/url]

He doesn't seem to have died in England from what I found here: [url=http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl]http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl[/url]

Married Sept. 1903 at Woolwich (Greater London)

If this was his rifle, he might have bought it before setting out for his posting in Panama. Officers and officials in those days would often "come home" for long leaves between postings.

It's possible he ended up in the USA, but equally possible the rifle was picked up in the UK by a dealer from the USA. I didn't find him in the Social Security Death Index, but US immigration records would tell you if he did immigrate.

There is also an Edward Fisher Hudson born in Colchester, Essex in 1891 who died in 1973 in Colchester; probably a relation, but possibly just a case of a parallel branch of the family perpetuating the same forenames, something that happens quite often.

OK, sniffing around the net a little further, we find via this page: [url=http://www.travelpod.com/hotel/Spark-Express-Iquique.html]http://www.travelpod.com/hotel/Spark-Express-Iquique.html[/url], this chap who was E.F. Hudson's son and born in Chile in the British Consulate, no less. [url=http://assyrianlevies.info/major-guy-hudson.html]http://assyrianlevies.info/major-guy-hudson.html[/url]

Quite possible the rifle went back to the UK with him and his mother after W.F. Hudson's death. I see Guy Hudson's widow is still mentioned as being alive, so if you found her address and sent her a letter with some photos of the rifle, she might be able to confirm its history - IF THIS IS RIGHT E.F. HUDSON!

Good luck.

Edited by Old_Glass (25/05/16 03:36 PM)


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Old_Glass
.300 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Old_Glass]
      #283114 - 31/05/16 12:39 AM

I see E. F. Hudson has been revised to E. J. Hudson, so back to the drawing board!

There is an Ernest J. Hudson who was born in 1879 and who as a 2nd. Lt. in the Army in 1901. He may be the same gent who shows up as a Temporary Major, General List in 1919, on page 1 of the Forces War Records site.

The problem with WWI era records is that many, many people obtained commissions during the war who would never have been granted one in peacetime due to their social origins, age, or educational background, so being an officer in WWI would not necessarily make one a likely purchaser of an expensive sporting rifle ten years before the war began.

Apologies to those who know all this sort of thing, written for those who may not!



Edited by Old_Glass (31/05/16 01:17 AM)


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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Old_Glass]
      #283117 - 31/05/16 01:37 AM

Hi,

Many thanks indeed for all your efforts. I can't say that research like this is my strong point, so really do appreciate your input. If only we had just a little more information on this chap then it would be easier to tie the provenance down a little further. Must not complain though!

Cheerio, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #283602 - 08/06/16 03:45 AM

Hi Gents,

Well I finally got to the range to see how this beauty shoots (some pics attached). Ammo was Sellier & Bellot SP 150 grs.

The rifle shot beautifully, although the trigger felt a little heavy to me but crisp. The five round magazine struggled to function, so I'm planing to compare to my others and maybe try a few different mags on my next trip. No surprise on the accuracy, just wonderful. As you can see from the photo, ten rounds shown at 50 yards. All were within 2" and if you discount the two flyer all the others were within one inch

It really is a real joy shooting such a quality rifle and one that is so accrete despite being well over a century old.

Cheers, Roy.









--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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Bidgee
.375 member


Reged: 08/04/15
Posts: 711
Loc: Northern Rivers, NSW
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #283634 - 08/06/16 07:11 PM

Very nice! You must be very happy with the results of your days outing.

Nice looking slip on pad as well.

Cheers


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Roy
.300 member


Reged: 06/09/15
Posts: 219
Loc: New Mexico
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Bidgee]
      #283641 - 09/06/16 12:24 AM

Thanks Mate!

Yes it's always an unknown when one shoots these old rifles but as long as it goes 'bang' and shoots pretty straight then there's no complaints from me.

I'm now keen to get out and shoot a couple more I have but not shot yet.

The funny thing is that while at the range with my century old rifle with open sights, next to me was a really nice old gent (retired Marine) with his all singing all dancing Accuracy International AW. A stunning rifle but one that cost him all kitted out nearly $10 grand. What a weapon but after looking at my target and his it made me realize that over a hundred years of development and and there is only an of inch or two in it re group size.

I know that's just a casual observation and his AI WA (and him) is capable of a lot more than my old gun but it's still great to see these old rifles still producing the goods.

Cheerio, Roy.

--------------------
My Website: www.wilkinsonfscollection.com

http://wilkinsonfscollection.com/wilkinsonfscollection.com/The_Lee-Speed_Rifle.html


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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3954
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #283647 - 09/06/16 07:13 AM

As long as it brings home the bacon..........who cares!
All right group for a 100year old veteran!
My P14's not quite as old, still wallops pigs when it gets the chance
Lovey rifle Roy!
93x64mm


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Old_Glass
.300 member


Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 113
Loc: BC, Canada
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Roy]
      #283673 - 10/06/16 01:01 AM

Quote:

Hi,

Many thanks indeed for all your efforts. I can't say that research like this is my strong point, so really do appreciate your input. If only we had just a little more information on this chap then it would be easier to tie the provenance down a little further. Must not complain though!

Cheerio, Roy.




My pleasure: I love a good mystery, even if it's someone else's!

I wonder how she'd shoot with some 215 grain slugs? Would the sights be calibrated for that weight?


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Levallois
.300 member


Reged: 27/11/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: New Find - No1 by William Evans..! [Re: Old_Glass]
      #318829 - 06/08/18 04:15 AM

I was fortunate to buy Roy’s Lee Speed No. 1 retailed by William Evans.  Thanks Roy!  I’ve wanted another one since I foolishly sold my two Lee Speeds a few years ago and this one is a fine replacement!  It is even more special because it has factory records associated with it.  When Roy presented it to the group on this forum in 2016 there was speculation about who the reported purchaser was - an E. J. Hudson in the ledger book (erroneously reported as E. F. Hudson at one point).  Old Glass suggested this was probably Ernest John Hudson.  I think he was right.  My research shows he was the only gentleman of proper age with the means to purchase the rifle in 1904.  The same E. J. Hudson is listed in The Peerage, probably because of his marriage (see below).  However, I have not found unequivocal evidence linking the rifle to him.  I am still looking for probate and last will and testament information.  So, the following is just speculation for the time being.

E. J. was born in 1878 or 1879 depending on the source so he was old enough to have purchased the rifle in 1904.  His father’s profession is listed as a “Provisions Merchant.” Many of the merchant class became very wealthy in the late 19th century but I can’t find any evidence that this was so for the Hudson family.  There isn’t much about E.J. prior to 1899.  In 1899 he apparently joined the Middlesex Regiment mounted infantry as a private and went to South Africa to participate in the Boer War as did many young Britons.  He was able to somehow get a commission in the Queen’s Own, Royal West Kents, 2nd battalion later in 1899.  This unit was stationed in Aden so he was transferred there.  The 2nd never went to South Africa.  However, they did have an interesting confrontation with a sheik loyal to the Ottoman government northwest of Aden at Ad Dajaijah (lots of different spellings of this) near Ottoman territory in July 1901.  Muhammad Bin Nasir Mukbil, who collected taxes for the Turks, and Humar tribesmen constructed a fortified tower in Haushabi tribal territory. The Haushabi unsuccessfully tried to evict them so the British foreign office told Mukbil to vacate the tower because this location was still inside the British protectorate and he still did not comply. Consequently, a force of approximately 400 men were sent from Aden on the 14th of July, including 206 Royal West Kents.  The marched 106 kilometers in the middle of summer.  The march, as you might expect, was arduous – considered by one author to be one of the toughest campaigns of this era - two soldiers and a gunner died from the heat and a lieutenant and 20 men were sent back to Aden due to sun stroke. After the force arrived and the situation reconnoitered, the Queen’s Own and several Indian units attacked the tower and associated town on July 26th and there was a significant two-day battle to dislodge approximately 800 Turkish soldiers and 1200 Humars.  The West Kents brought along six mountain guns (7-pound artillery pieces) broken down and carried by camel.  These guns proved to be crucial to the success of the battle because they allowed areas to be “softened” before an infantry attack. Approximately 40 of the enemy were killed with an unknown number of wounded with four killed and five wounded from the expeditionary force.  Second Lieutenant Hudson, who participated in this campaign as the transportation officer, was one of the wounded.  This is fascinating, as I had never heard of this battle before now, probably because the Boer War was dominating headlines in 1901.   Thankfully, it was mentioned in a few publications.  

E. J. eventually was sent back to England in October 1901 via Malta and resigned his commission in England in June 1902 after being judged medically unfit for duty.  He was married later that year in December to Daisy May White.  She was the daughter of Sir George White, 1st Baronet of Cotham House, Bristol.  They were married at the Bristol Church and it must have been a big deal as there were architectural changes done to the church to commemorate their marriage. In January 1904, I am speculating that this E. J. Hudson was the one who purchased the Lee Speed from William Evans and took delivery of it in February.  In March that year, there are travel records that list a Mr. and Mrs. Hudson on a ship to Natal, South Africa.  While this is circumstantial, the data does fit the timeline.  You don’t buy a rifle like this and not take it to Africa or India to hunt with.  Also, marrying the daughter of a Baronet probably came with a healthy dowry so he could afford the Lee Speed and a safari. Daisy May and E.J. are listed in the 1911 census as married with two servants and no children.  He is also listed a stockbroker, probably working for his father-in-law who was also a stockbroker among other things including the founder of Bristol Airplanes.

At the start of first World War in August of 1914, Mr. Hudson joined up with his old unit, the Royal West Kents as a lieutenant.  He was in the 6th Battalion and sent to France.  He was promoted to captain in October 1914 but was sent back to England in August 1915 suffering from what appeared to be a nervous breakdown.  He must have gotten better because he was posted as adjutant for the No. 1 Infantry basecamp depot in France in October 1915.  In February 1917 he was appointed to the staff of GOC reinforcements at Havre until February 1919 – his rank was Brevet Major.  His father in law, Sir George White, passed away in 1916 suggesting his wife may have gotten an inheritance at that time.  This explains in part how in 1919 they could afford to buy Prosperous Farm in Hungerford.  This farm is where Jethro Tull developed his seed drill in 1741 revolutionizing agriculture.   E. J. also received his OBE in 1919 – Order of the British Empire.  This didn’t quite make him a knight with the honor of putting Sir before his name but it allowed him to have these three letters after your name.  After 1919 there is no real information about him until his death in 1943.  I suspect he travelled during this period but I’m still looking at the records.

Again, this is all educated speculation until I can find some probate records showing he owned the rifle at his death.  I will keep researching.  Thanks for reading this and for your patience. Hopefully more to come.
 
John

--------------------
It ain't like it used to be, but it'll do.


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